Search FQXi


If you are aware of an interesting new academic paper (that has been published in a peer-reviewed journal or has appeared on the arXiv), a conference talk (at an official professional scientific meeting), an external blog post (by a professional scientist) or a news item (in the mainstream news media), which you think might make an interesting topic for an FQXi blog post, then please contact us at forums@fqxi.org with a link to the original source and a sentence about why you think that the work is worthy of discussion. Please note that we receive many such suggestions and while we endeavour to respond to them, we may not be able to reply to all suggestions.

Please also note that we do not accept unsolicited posts and we cannot review, or open new threads for, unsolicited articles or papers. Requests to review or post such materials will not be answered. If you have your own novel physics theory or model, which you would like to post for further discussion among then FQXi community, then please add them directly to the "Alternative Models of Reality" thread, or to the "Alternative Models of Cosmology" thread. Thank you.

Forum Home
Introduction
Terms of Use

Order posts by:
 chronological order
 most recent first

Posts by the blogger are highlighted in orange; posts by FQXi Members are highlighted in blue.

By using the FQXi Forum, you acknowledge reading and agree to abide by the Terms of Use

 RSS feed | RSS help
RECENT POSTS IN THIS TOPIC

ari saaput: on 7/17/18 at 10:44am UTC, wrote Obat Kencing Nanah Obat Kencing Nanah Di Apotik Gejala Kencing Nanah ...

reseller propolis: on 5/24/18 at 2:33am UTC, wrote Propolis Brazil Propolis Brazil Propolis Brazil Propolis Brazil ...

songjoong df: on 1/2/18 at 8:45am UTC, wrote jual qnc jelly gamat di magelang jual qnc jelly gamat di mataram jual qnc...

songjoong df: on 12/27/17 at 6:35am UTC, wrote cara menjadi reseller qnc jelly gamat Cara Menjadi Agen Qnc Jelly Gamat ...

John Merryman: on 10/18/07 at 17:37pm UTC, wrote Paul, That's part of my point; What is the physical reality, versus any...

paul valletta: on 10/17/07 at 2:12am UTC, wrote John,"Does that mean the detection of the electron is always just...

John Merryman: on 10/15/07 at 3:08am UTC, wrote I realize this point about time doesn't connect with many people. Right or...

John Merryman: on 10/15/07 at 2:06am UTC, wrote Paul, "Feynman and Wheeler made the statement to this effect thus: No...


RECENT FORUM POSTS

Robert McEachern: ""all experiments have pointed towards this and there is no way to avoid..." in Review of "Foundations of...

Joe Fisher: "Dear Steve Agnew, Naturally provided VISIBLE realty am not a silly humanly..." in Can Time Be Saved From...

James Putnam: "Light bends because it is accelerating. It accelerates toward an object..." in Black Hole Photographed...

Steve Agnew: "Stringy and loop quantum are the two big contenders, but neither has a..." in Can Time Be Saved From...

Robert McEachern: "Lorenzo, The nature of "information" is well understood outside of..." in Review of "Foundations of...

Georgina Woodward: "Steve, Lorraine is writing about a simpler "knowing " rather than the..." in The Nature of Time

Steve Agnew: "Knowing information necessarily means neural action potentials. Atom and..." in The Nature of Time


RECENT ARTICLES
click titles to read articles

Can Time Be Saved From Physics?
Philosophers, physicists and neuroscientists discuss how our sense of time’s flow might arise through our interactions with external stimuli—despite suggestions from Einstein's relativity that our perception of the passage of time is an illusion.

Thermo-Demonics
A devilish new framework of thermodynamics that focuses on how we observe information could help illuminate our understanding of probability and rewrite quantum theory.

Gravity's Residue
An unusual approach to unifying the laws of physics could solve Hawking's black-hole information paradox—and its predicted gravitational "memory effect" could be picked up by LIGO.

Could Mind Forge the Universe?
Objective reality, and the laws of physics themselves, emerge from our observations, according to a new framework that turns what we think of as fundamental on its head.

Dissolving Quantum Paradoxes
The impossibility of building a perfect clock could help explain away microscale weirdness.


FQXi BLOGS
May 20, 2019

CATEGORY: Blog [back]
TOPIC: Pioneer Slows, Kilogram Goes [refresh]
Bookmark and Share
Login or create account to post reply or comment.

Blogger William Orem wrote on Sep. 23, 2007 @ 15:19 GMT
The late, great Carl Sagan was fond of including this line in his essays: "But I could be wrong." The idea is not merely humble, it is profound: we do not progress in our knowledge of the universe by making dogmatic assertions; we progress by guessing (Richard Feynman's word) and then testing. I *think* that nature works this way, Sagan is saying. Here's *why* I think so. And I remain open to...

view entire post


Bookmark and Share
this post has been edited by the author since its original submission

report post as inappropriate


John Merryman wrote on Sep. 24, 2007 @ 16:21 GMT
Here is a way to look at physics from another angle. What if time is a consequence of motion, rather then the basis for it?

When two atoms collide, they create an event. The physical reality of the atoms is going from one event to the next. On the other hand, an event goes from being in the future to being in the past. Another example is that the rotation of the earth relative to the...

view entire post


Bookmark and Share
report post as inappropriate


Ken Wharton wrote on Sep. 25, 2007 @ 01:42 GMT
Very nice post, William.

The same John Anderson has recently published a summary of another set of spacecraft anomalies that haven't gotten nearly the level of attention of the Pioneer anomalies, but are in many ways much more interesting (and baffling). They occur when a spacecraft swings past Earth on a hyperbolic trajectory (during gravitational assists). For more info, see the preprint at http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0608087 .

John, I wouldn't say that "physics thinks of time as going toward the future"; CPT symmetry is fundamental; a movie of the universe played in reverse still obeys the same fundamental laws of physics (if you also flip C and P). Both the increase of entropy and our intuitive parsing of time into "past" and "future" are consequences of a low-entropy initial boundary condition on the universe, not anything asymmetric about time itself.

Bookmark and Share
report post as inappropriate


John Merryman wrote on Sep. 25, 2007 @ 17:30 GMT
Ken,

I find a consequence of this perspective is that the narrative, beginning to end construct of time is just one side of the dichotomy. Think of a factory, in that the product, the singular unit, goes from initiation to completion, while the process, the production line, is facing the other direction, consuming raw material and expelling finished product. Just as the process of time, the hands of the clock, are constantly proceeding through the units, the hours. As with the suns energy going through the series of days from past to future, the days go from being in the future to being in the past. So as these days are starting and warming up, the energy of the sun is pouring into them. Then it drains away and goes on to the next.

You are defining time in terms of a low entropy initial boundary on the universe, yet according to current theory and measurements, there is enormous amounts of "dark" energy continuing to pour into it. What if this universe is some form of singular unit. Prior to this initial boundary, it was potential, ie. existing in the future. Currently it appears to still be growing, much as a day is still warming in the morning. Theoretically it will come to an end, either fade away, or crunch back and then it is past. Presumably this energy then goes on to the next reality. So like the hands of the clock, this energy goes on to the future, while the universe, like a single day, recedes into the past.

As the atoms create the event, energy creates the information. Rather then time being a dimension, the information is lost as the energy which manifests it moves on, so to the extent it appears a dimension, it is a loop, where strands of the past are constantly being woven back into the present. This constant reviewing and regurgitating of the past alters it as it gives structure to the present.

I guess this understanding of time comes more from studying history and its relationship to present society, than from physics. While I don't set out to argue with what I don't fully understand, it just seems to me that projecting time out as a dimension has theoretical, as well as practical complications, even though it makes a useful descriptive analogy.

Bookmark and Share
report post as inappropriate


paul valletta wrote on Sep. 30, 2007 @ 23:39 GMT
Ken, "a movie of the universe played in reverse still obeys the same fundamental laws of physics (if you also flip C and P)"

Some technical issues need to be addressed here, 1:A movie is only a recording,copy, and are in essence "virtual" recording of forward moving events? Thus Relativity insists that all copies of "original" events in spacetime, lose a fraction of information, example a human memory of an actual event, cannot be replayed in the mind of observers 100%..if one can replay events in a 100% capacity, then how would one differenciate event realities?

2)"CPT symmetry is fundamental; a movie of the universe played in reverse still obeys the same fundamental laws of physics (if you also flip C and P)."..again this is not relevant to events occuring in a forward, expanding Universe?, if the Universe was in contraction mode, then the parity of left+right would be obviously different, a simple example if I may, moving "leftwards" in a contracting Universe, would be totally the opposite to moving "leftwards" in an expanding Universe.

Think about it, in a contracting Universe, turning left or right would be difficult, as you would tend to be constrained into a direct forward motion, caused be the surrounding contracting spacetime., and consequently, trying to maintain a forward motion in an expanding spacetime Universe would result in you having no option but to veer left or right, this is the bending of spactime, governed by expansion terms.

It is my belief that the pioneer anomolies are resulting from the fact, there is slightly more expanding space away from our solar system, which locally contains most of the nearest matter to the crafts.

its not that there is more PULL from our solar system, specifically our local star, Its because the is more PUSH from the "outside" of the solar system?

Bookmark and Share
report post as inappropriate


Ken Wharton wrote on Oct. 1, 2007 @ 21:28 GMT
John; Some of what you say makes *intuitive* sense, but my point is that our *intuition* about time is just plain wrong (assuming physics is right about CPT symmetry). Physics is telling us that time is much more symmetric than we are inclined to accept.

Paul; Maybe I should have said that one can imagine reversing the time coordinates on the universe itself, and "observing" the universe in this unusual perspective. Some people respond that it's not the same universe if it's viewed in the opposite time direction, so sometimes I retreat to the "movie" analogy, but reversing the time in ones coordinate system should be just as valid a thought-experiment as boosting into a reference frame moving at a different velocity. In both cases you're still discussing the same physical events.

As for the Pioneer anomaly, consider this: Both Pioneer 10 and Pioneer 11 experienced the same acceleration anomaly, *towards the sun*, even though they left the solar system moving in *opposite* directions! So it's almost certainly not a galactic-neighborhood effect (the odds that the sign would flip right near the sun are extremely small). Also, if one postulates a constant anomalous acceleration on everything in the solar system, one finds problems with the orbital behavior of Earth and Mars. Even in the outer solar system, such an anomaly would mess up the observed cometary distributions. It's actually quite hard to postulate new physics to explain the Pioneer anomaly that doesn't contradict some other set of observations.

Bookmark and Share
report post as inappropriate


John Merryman wrote on Oct. 2, 2007 @ 01:31 GMT
Ken,

What is the intuitive understanding of time? The story is that Edgar Allen Poe is on record as first proposing time and space as one, yet the very notion of history tends to be linear, so I'd say time as a dimension is intuitive. That there has been incredibly complex mathematics developed to support this concept isn't proof it's the most efficient explanation. Remember epi-cycles? That it does take such complexity might well be evidence against it.

You are not really addressing my point, that time as consequence of motion, rather than basis for it, does explain a physical reality that really is just energy in space.

Bookmark and Share
report post as inappropriate


nicephorus wrote on Oct. 10, 2007 @ 10:08 GMT
Maybe there is no mystery about the Pioneer Anomaly. Paul you could be absolutely correct, this looks like a case of local observation of the global expansion parameters of the universe. The local geometry of mass concentration presents gradients (gravitational and “chronic” ???) that in simple terms has the whole universe “pushing down” on Pioneer “against the wall...

view entire post


Bookmark and Share
report post as inappropriate


John Merryman wrote on Oct. 12, 2007 @ 20:50 GMT
Nicephorus,

It is not a question of reversing the course of events, but what is time. Is it a fundamental dimension in which motion occurs? If so, then physical activity travels along it from one event to the next. On the other hand, if it is a consequence of motion, then as events are formed by this activity, they recede into the past as other events take their place. Such as the date that is tomorrow will become, with a couple rotations of the planet, yesterday. Eliminating an entire dimension does simplify the puzzle.

On a related note, I don't see that three dimensions is an adequate description of space. For all intents and purposes it seems to be nothing more then the coordinate system of the point the three lines cross. While it is as necessary to have some frame of reference to define space as it is necessary to have a starting date for a calendar, it is still an arbitrary point of reference. The fact is that any number of such points and frames can be used to define the same space.

Competing frames of reference and the systems of organization they represent are the cause of conflict. You might say Arabs and Israelis use different coordinate systems to define the same space. This is largely the basis of Chaos Theory, where the rules may be determined, but the outcome cannot be predicted because intersecting processes yield unpredictable results, even, as experiments with cellular automata have shown, where it is feedback within the same initial structure. The story of the Tower of Babel provides an very early allegory of this process at work.

While any given map of space may be three dimensional structure, the reality is infinitely dimensional, so the extent we can project is limited and all we really know are what we remember of the past and the lessons it has taught us. Some in conflict with others. (Catch 22.)

Bookmark and Share
report post as inappropriate


paul valletta wrote on Oct. 14, 2007 @ 21:00 GMT
Ken " Is it a fundamental dimension in which motion occurs? If so, then physical activity travels along it from one event to the next. On the other hand, if it is a consequence of motion, then as events are formed by this activity, they recede into the past as other events take their place."

But then again some dimensions have "holes" within them?

Electrons are not composed of 3-D structure, it is a 2-D quantity?..an example of events in spacetime, two "solid" structures, lets say two billiard balls, are heading towards each other(one from left to right, the other right to left), they collide/impact each other and the physical laws dictate they both bounce off each other in 3-Dimensional space, thier structure identity treats each ball as identical. Now imagine if one "solid" ball was composed of a structure with a different density, ie say one ball is made of a very stiff liquid, say a gel with a high viscosity. The gel/liquid like ball will encompass the solid ball, in which direction do you think the balls will travel when they collide?

Now, for the sake of simplistic insight lets treat the "gel_ball" as a 2-dimensional structured energy, and call it an Electron, and the normal billiard ball as a 3-Dimensional energy source and call it a Proton? ..the Electron does not collide with the Proton because it is NOT 3-D, it can surround the Proton because all of 3-D structures have 2-D finite "edges" .

Dirac, in his greatest wisdom, realized that if one removes the Proton from spacetime, then there is a "hole" WRT when the Proton was, this hole is a "quantum potential/well", and the lesser dimensional Electron falls/dissapears into this, the Electron, can emerge either in the future (out of the available well), or it may emerge from the past, which happens to be the SAME quantum well !

Feynman and wheeler made the statement to this effect thus: No Electron can be detected in the Present/Now, its either in the past or the future, but never, never in the Present time!

Thus the motion and action of the Electron can be viewed as a consequence of it's dimensional make-up, which allows it to instantly dissapear and reappear at any available "hole", or vacuum.

3-Dimensions is quite adequate to describe space, but you need to add certain 2-D field quantities(not-matter) to explain spacetime, as viewed of course from a 3+1 spacetime by a 3-D structured observer.

Where has all the Anti-Matter gone?..into holes within spacetime?..existing in the Past or Future?.. (anti-matter is not detected here in the present time)...is the Elecrton really the fundemental "Anti-matter" particle?..the Electron is Not A 3-Dimensional "matter" particle, its more of a 2-Dimensional field vector wave space hopping quantity, just what you would expect Anti-Matter to consist of!

Bookmark and Share
report post as inappropriate


John Merryman wrote on Oct. 15, 2007 @ 02:06 GMT
Paul,

"Feynman and Wheeler made the statement to this effect thus: No Electron can be detected in the Present/Now, it's either in the past or the future, but never, never in the Present time!"

Does that mean the detection of the electron is always just information? Either it is potential, ie. in the future, or if detected, is simply the information of that process and subject to the uncertainty principle? Consider the consequences of it being just information. It starts as the wave of potential and upon detection, collapses into and around whatever method of measurement used, becoming the object of presumed recorded reality. It is going from the future to the past.

Using time as a dimension is like dissecting an organism. It lays everything out there for you to look at and poke and examine, but for some reason, it's rather lifeless. What if there is no dimension of time and reality really is just that ethereal energy radiating and clumping in space, with history and all the intellectual structure we attach to it as little more then the tail of a comet. Is it any wonder that the more we poke at it, the more illusionary it all seems? "The more you know, the more you know you don't know."

Bookmark and Share
report post as inappropriate


John Merryman wrote on Oct. 15, 2007 @ 03:08 GMT
I realize this point about time doesn't connect with many people. Right or wrong, it is a paradigm shift for anyone educated in physics. What is a more fundamental assumption of modern physics then four dimensional spacetime. This is not just a course correction either, but a complete one eighty. Rather then dimensions being the basis of reality, they are a crude tool for prying it apart. While linearity may be more fundamental then human consciousness, it is still a construct.

Of course, just about everything is more fundamental then human consciousness. While it is the basis of our being, it is the apex of structure.

We stare into the mirror in search of our self and wonder why we only see that blank look in return.

Sorry if I'm cluttering this discussion, but you do ask for different ways of thinking.

Bookmark and Share
report post as inappropriate


paul valletta wrote on Oct. 17, 2007 @ 02:12 GMT
John,"Does that mean the detection of the electron is always just information? Either it is potential, ie. in the future, or if detected, is simply the information of that process and subject to the uncertainty principle?"

Actually, drinking a glass of water, I know ther are Electrons contained within the liquid by fact there are Atoms?..the detection of single Electrons, or the information of single Electrons is where detection persists to evade observation WRT H.U.P ? By volume I could estimate the number of Atoms within the glass of water, if I reduce the volume down to a minimum number, I could derive the Electron numbers, but when arriving at the maximum limit, ie a single atom, I could not isolate the Electron into a corner where I could confirm its location.

Bookmark and Share
report post as inappropriate


John Merryman wrote on Oct. 18, 2007 @ 17:37 GMT
Paul,

That's part of my point; What is the physical reality, versus any possible description of it.

What brought me to this site was Max Tegmark's article in NewScientist magazine, arguing that the universe is ultimately just mathematical information. I think that information and energy are two sides of the same coin and we can define the difference between them if we think of time as a consequence of motion, rather then the basis for it.

It would be interesting to see how a larger discussion of this possibility might be initiated. Given the responses I've encountered though, my hopes are not high. It not as if many people even try to think it through. They are simply highly trained minds and time as anything other than a fundamental dimension just doesn't compute.

Bookmark and Share
report post as inappropriate


songjoong sdfsd df wrote on Dec. 27, 2017 @ 06:35 GMT
cara menjadi reseller qnc jelly gamat

Cara Menjadi Agen Qnc Jelly Gamat

manfaat qnc jelly gamat

Obat Tradisional Kista Nabothian Tanpa Operasi

cara menjadi agen qnc jelly gamat

cara menjadi reseller qnc jelly gamat

cara mengobati gondongan pada anak

cara mengobati kanker nasofaring secara alami

obat pembersih sisa janin setelah keguguran

cara mengobati kanker pankreas secara tradisional

obat tradisional benjolan di leher sebelah kanan

obat tradisional tipes untuk orang dewasa

obat tradisional untuk menghentikan haid berkepanjangan

Obat Tradisional Pembekuan Darah Di Otak

Bookmark and Share
report post as inappropriate


songjoong sdfsd df wrote on Jan. 2, 2018 @ 08:45 GMT
jual qnc jelly gamat di magelang

jual qnc jelly gamat di mataram

jual qnc jelly gamat di metro

jual qnc jelly gamat di mojokerto

jual qnc jelly gamat di padang panjang

jual qnc jelly gamat di padang sidempuan

obat tradisional kista payudara tanpa operasi

Bookmark and Share
report post as inappropriate


reseller propolis wrote on May. 24, 2018 @ 02:33 GMT
Propolis Brazil

Propolis Brazil

Propolis Brazil

Propolis Brazil

Propolis Brazil

Propolis Brazil

Propolis Brazil

Propolis Brazil

Propolis Brazil

Propolis Brazil

Propolis Brazil

Bookmark and Share
report post as inappropriate


ari putri saaput wrote on Jul. 17, 2018 @ 10:44 GMT
Obat Kencing Nanah

Obat Kencing Nanah Di Apotik

Gejala Kencing Nanah

OBAT KENCING NANAH ALAMI

OBAT KENCING NANAH HERBAL

OBAT KENCING NANAH TRADISIONAL

OBAT GONORE

OBAT GONORE DI APOTIK

Obat Kencing Sakit Dan Keluar Nanah

Cara Mengobati Kencing Nanah Pada Pria

Bookmark and Share
report post as inappropriate


Login or create account to post reply or comment.

Please enter your e-mail address:
Note: Joining the FQXi mailing list does not give you a login account or constitute membership in the organization.