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FQXi FORUM

February 25, 2020

CATEGORY:
What's Ultimately Possible in Physics? Essay Contest (2009)
[back]

TOPIC: Is There a System Beyond the Particle? by Mohammed Sanduk [refresh]

TOPIC: Is There a System Beyond the Particle? by Mohammed Sanduk [refresh]

The concept of a particle is an acceptable approximation in some physics applications and mainly in classical physics. The concept of point particle is quite fit relativistic quantum mechanics, and the electron and all fundamental particles are considered to be true geometrical points in the sense that they have no spatial extent. In spite of that the particle concept is quite fit the physical interpretations; but this concept leads to many problems, like black hole, or creating a limit of knowledge…Zero size body (particle) may be attributed to the observation limit. This limit is formulating our theoretical understanding as well. Beyond the particle there may be a speculative hidden space and system. One of the present models is a bevel gear system. This model may throw light on the concepts of particle and its complex wave. In addition to that there is no wave dissipation.

Visiting Staff in University of Surrey (UK). PhD Plasma physicist (Manchester University 1990). Dr Sanduk, was head of Laser engineering department, College of Engineering. Nahrain University, Baghdad-Iraq. Dr Sanduk gained 29 research grants for Phd. & Msc. His research interests cover many subjects related to the charged particle transportation, Magnetohydrodynamics, and energy conversion. In addition to that he is interested in the foundation of Quantum Mechanics, and philosophy of science & technology. Dr Sanduk is member of Engineering physics group committee in Institute of Physics, and member of Byfleet art group.

Hello dear Mohammed,

Nice to meet you .

It's a very beautiful papper.

You know I have some extrapolations about pullies ,I think What all exeperiments or systems coorelated with the spheres and rotations shall imply the best resusts and the best technologies .

The mass and the rotations can be add with pragamatism .

I search how balance a Earth mass and an add of pullies ,with mgh....1/2mv²....a big mass linked with opullies and Earth mass and its point of contact .After we can add a fluid system and its incompressibility and the section to increase the velocity of the fluid after the impatct on soil .

Afetr I add some others systems ,like a sphere of composting to play with the methan ,the pression ,...more the animals ...if we insert in the sphere optimized of composting the vegetal multiplication ,it's relevant with the check of temperature ,H2O ...this add of system permits to increase the h and thus the potential energy without the hand of the man .The gears thus have theirs places evidently.I think what the add of system is a point of vue so important for all like the fundamenatl complementarity .

The nature ,our ecosystems ,the rotations,the spheres ,the mass,....have so many secrets still to give us .

Sincerely

Steve

report post as inappropriate

Nice to meet you .

It's a very beautiful papper.

You know I have some extrapolations about pullies ,I think What all exeperiments or systems coorelated with the spheres and rotations shall imply the best resusts and the best technologies .

The mass and the rotations can be add with pragamatism .

I search how balance a Earth mass and an add of pullies ,with mgh....1/2mv²....a big mass linked with opullies and Earth mass and its point of contact .After we can add a fluid system and its incompressibility and the section to increase the velocity of the fluid after the impatct on soil .

Afetr I add some others systems ,like a sphere of composting to play with the methan ,the pression ,...more the animals ...if we insert in the sphere optimized of composting the vegetal multiplication ,it's relevant with the check of temperature ,H2O ...this add of system permits to increase the h and thus the potential energy without the hand of the man .The gears thus have theirs places evidently.I think what the add of system is a point of vue so important for all like the fundamenatl complementarity .

The nature ,our ecosystems ,the rotations,the spheres ,the mass,....have so many secrets still to give us .

Sincerely

Steve

report post as inappropriate

I have analyzed the paper 'Is There a System Beyond the Particle?' by M. I. Sanduk. (There is a proposition that each author must review some essays. Then we’ll select the best essay by comparing the merits and demerits of all essays. Please do not take offence for my review).

The essay examines the concept of particle and wave.

I believe that there are two criterions only to...

view entire post

The essay examines the concept of particle and wave.

I believe that there are two criterions only to...

view entire post

report post as inappropriate

Hi Leshan

Thanks for your non offensive notes. We do not write holy papers so it needs revision; this is the paradigm of academic science publication. Thanks for your efforts of checking the logical errors as you mentioned in your reply to Anonymous about your essay. According to science publication paradigm the reviewers must be specialists and of high level of experience in their specialty.

Regards,

Mohammed

Thanks for your non offensive notes. We do not write holy papers so it needs revision; this is the paradigm of academic science publication. Thanks for your efforts of checking the logical errors as you mentioned in your reply to Anonymous about your essay. According to science publication paradigm the reviewers must be specialists and of high level of experience in their specialty.

Regards,

Mohammed

Dear Mohammed Sanduk,

You are absolutely right. OK, no reviews more, it make conflicts only.

Please do not take attention to my "review", I'm not a specialist in the field. On the other hand, the simple text is not interesting. We must discuss physics.

My theory also deals with zero-dimension. According to theory, if to remove the space-time from chamber, disappears both extension and duration. I need only two atomic clocks and the atomic station (collider) to prove it. Clocks placed near atomic station should tick slower.

Sincerely,

Constantin

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You are absolutely right. OK, no reviews more, it make conflicts only.

Please do not take attention to my "review", I'm not a specialist in the field. On the other hand, the simple text is not interesting. We must discuss physics.

My theory also deals with zero-dimension. According to theory, if to remove the space-time from chamber, disappears both extension and duration. I need only two atomic clocks and the atomic station (collider) to prove it. Clocks placed near atomic station should tick slower.

Sincerely,

Constantin

report post as inappropriate

The four dimensional representation for space-time event (Special relativity) implies space coordinates (X,Y,Z) and time coordinate (t) in addition to light velocity (c).

X2 + Y2+ Z2=t2c2

This four dimensional space is not abstract mathematical space, it is real physical space. One may think that there is no existence for matter here or the space-time can be regarded out of the...

view entire post

X2 + Y2+ Z2=t2c2

This four dimensional space is not abstract mathematical space, it is real physical space. One may think that there is no existence for matter here or the space-time can be regarded out of the...

view entire post

Thank you for reply.

1. "Space-time is not a container or a dress you can remove it" - More precisely, I try to remove a VOLUME of space. This volume can be inside of container. In practice I want to remove a microscopic volume of space-time using nuclear physics.

2. The vacuum in quantum mechanics is quite different from the vacuum of chamber that is used in many technology and...

view entire post

1. "Space-time is not a container or a dress you can remove it" - More precisely, I try to remove a VOLUME of space. This volume can be inside of container. In practice I want to remove a microscopic volume of space-time using nuclear physics.

2. The vacuum in quantum mechanics is quite different from the vacuum of chamber that is used in many technology and...

view entire post

report post as inappropriate

Theory can model anything. If it cannot do so explictly it will sum Taylor series (pendulum when sin(theta) differs from theta in radians), normalize infinities (quantum mechanics) , erect Yukawa potentials (axions; 1/r^2 gravitaiton tests), scream "heteroskedasticity!" (economics), demand better detection (recalculated proton decay half-life after Super-Kamiokande), proclaim necessity (SUSY), interpolatively curve fit (MOND; dark matter), drown in Feynman diagrams, or claim elegance and contingent untestability (string theory). Models are often tarps that conceal large manure pile. A model that fails falsification is wrong. James Clerk Maxwell used a gear model. There were no gears. Lift the tarp: in vitro veritas.

If you have gears you have torque. Torque and its mirror image are not superposable, yet you claim no parity violations. If you have torque to spin you have angular momentum - how do you quantize your gears to meet observations? Unless the relativistic massed body is aimed right between your eyes you will get Terrell rotation not POV distortion ( http://bkocay.cs.umanitoba.ca/Students/Theory.html and http://www.math.ubc.ca/~cass/courses/m309-01a/cook/terrell1.

html ). Where is your empirical consistency?

You make wildly heterodox claims and supply a mathematical model in support. String theory embraces 10^(50,000) acceptable vacua to date. I fail to see how you can claim superiority by content, by size, by lack of contradiction of prior observations, or by new and testable predictions. Where's the beef?

report post as inappropriate

If you have gears you have torque. Torque and its mirror image are not superposable, yet you claim no parity violations. If you have torque to spin you have angular momentum - how do you quantize your gears to meet observations? Unless the relativistic massed body is aimed right between your eyes you will get Terrell rotation not POV distortion ( http://bkocay.cs.umanitoba.ca/Students/Theory.html and http://www.math.ubc.ca/~cass/courses/m309-01a/cook/terrell1.

html ). Where is your empirical consistency?

You make wildly heterodox claims and supply a mathematical model in support. String theory embraces 10^(50,000) acceptable vacua to date. I fail to see how you can claim superiority by content, by size, by lack of contradiction of prior observations, or by new and testable predictions. Where's the beef?

report post as inappropriate

First: In conventional physics there is no value for any theory without experimental verification. The mathematical model alone can not do any thing (Monopole theory of Dirac, still has no verification. So it is just theory).

Second: I did not propose any model. Gear model is just as another form of Three wave Hypothesis (TWH), which is belong to Horodecki. My role was just reformulating...

view entire post

Second: I did not propose any model. Gear model is just as another form of Three wave Hypothesis (TWH), which is belong to Horodecki. My role was just reformulating...

view entire post

Fourth: The wave in quantum mechanics is not an ordinary wave it is a wave of complex wave function, and there are a lot of works about it.

Bevel gear model (angular form of TWH) may be useful to:

1- Avoid the problem of wave dissipation (in wave models of particle).

2- Throw light on the complex wave feature.

Fifth: As has been mentioned in the essay, these types of works are speculative. The possible investigation is comparing the output of the theory with the present experimental results. It is in somehow similar to the case of cosmological theories.

Bevel gear model (angular form of TWH) may be useful to:

1- Avoid the problem of wave dissipation (in wave models of particle).

2- Throw light on the complex wave feature.

Fifth: As has been mentioned in the essay, these types of works are speculative. The possible investigation is comparing the output of the theory with the present experimental results. It is in somehow similar to the case of cosmological theories.

'According to science publication paradigm the reviewers must be specialists and of high level of experience in their specialty.'

But how the community can vote your essay if they are non-specialists in Three Wave Hypothesis theory?

According to FQXi rules the essay should be 'Accessible to a diverse, highly-educated but non-specialist audience, aiming in the range between the level of Scientific American and a review article in Science or Nature.'

report post as inappropriate

But how the community can vote your essay if they are non-specialists in Three Wave Hypothesis theory?

According to FQXi rules the essay should be 'Accessible to a diverse, highly-educated but non-specialist audience, aiming in the range between the level of Scientific American and a review article in Science or Nature.'

report post as inappropriate

In all high standard works, the revision is necessary. Any expert in relativistic quantum mechanics can analyze TWH. The criticism of expert is quite useful. It may help to find the correct way.

However, the level of the essays is as mentioned. I have no idea about the community members; but I am sure there will be an accurate judgment. I think, in this type of work not just the scientific material is considered but the simplicity and clarifications of explanation. The benefit of this contest is not just wining the prize but shearing ideas with different level of people. This opportunity you may not get it in ordinary occasions.

However, the level of the essays is as mentioned. I have no idea about the community members; but I am sure there will be an accurate judgment. I think, in this type of work not just the scientific material is considered but the simplicity and clarifications of explanation. The benefit of this contest is not just wining the prize but shearing ideas with different level of people. This opportunity you may not get it in ordinary occasions.

Dear Mohammed Sanduk,

I think, if this concept of ‘Gear Model’ is used in Neutrino Physics; new phenomenology will emerge that will describe the causality and propagation of wave in Coherent cyclic universe model. Thank you very much for this highly useful postulate to resolve the paradoxes in Inflationary universe model.

With best wishes,

Jayakar

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I think, if this concept of ‘Gear Model’ is used in Neutrino Physics; new phenomenology will emerge that will describe the causality and propagation of wave in Coherent cyclic universe model. Thank you very much for this highly useful postulate to resolve the paradoxes in Inflationary universe model.

With best wishes,

Jayakar

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Dear Jayakar

Thanks a lot. This type of work is too hard and not easy to be accepted. I appreciate your idea.

Best regards,

Mohammed

Thanks a lot. This type of work is too hard and not easy to be accepted. I appreciate your idea.

Best regards,

Mohammed

Dear Mohammed,

Of course, Renormalization fixes the problems of "zero-D" particles with "infinite" mass and charge. The concept of renormalization is well-founded in Condensed Matter and Particle Physics.

What most interests me about your paper is the Three Wave (3 Gear) Hypothesis. I have been discussing what I see as apparent similarities between your 3 Gear model, Lawrence Crowell's 3 Octonion model, and the 3-Legged Feynman diagrams in my soon-to-be-released essay on Lawrence's blog site (topic #494).

In my theory, the initial state fermion (the first gear?) is an 8-D Octonion in a 12-D framework. The interaction bosons (the second gear?) have dimensionality ranging from one to eleven (excluding 8-D and 10-D), which implies that the final state fermion (the third gear?) is a different Octonion in a different region of the 12-D framework. Curiously, an 11-D boson exists in a reciprocal (not necessarily dual) space to the fermions, and we now have 8+11+8=27 dimensions, with the bosonic degrees of freedom apparently represented by Lawrence's middle octonion O' and his three transform dimensions, z's.

In my own model, a "particle" is the intersection of "stringy lattices".

Your essay seems very pragmatic, and you might not be ready to accept the possibility of so many dimensions, but I think there may be fundamental similarities to our ideas.

Have Fun!

Ray Munroe

report post as inappropriate

Of course, Renormalization fixes the problems of "zero-D" particles with "infinite" mass and charge. The concept of renormalization is well-founded in Condensed Matter and Particle Physics.

What most interests me about your paper is the Three Wave (3 Gear) Hypothesis. I have been discussing what I see as apparent similarities between your 3 Gear model, Lawrence Crowell's 3 Octonion model, and the 3-Legged Feynman diagrams in my soon-to-be-released essay on Lawrence's blog site (topic #494).

In my theory, the initial state fermion (the first gear?) is an 8-D Octonion in a 12-D framework. The interaction bosons (the second gear?) have dimensionality ranging from one to eleven (excluding 8-D and 10-D), which implies that the final state fermion (the third gear?) is a different Octonion in a different region of the 12-D framework. Curiously, an 11-D boson exists in a reciprocal (not necessarily dual) space to the fermions, and we now have 8+11+8=27 dimensions, with the bosonic degrees of freedom apparently represented by Lawrence's middle octonion O' and his three transform dimensions, z's.

In my own model, a "particle" is the intersection of "stringy lattices".

Your essay seems very pragmatic, and you might not be ready to accept the possibility of so many dimensions, but I think there may be fundamental similarities to our ideas.

Have Fun!

Ray Munroe

report post as inappropriate

and if the entangled spheres were a big gear system ,linked with all because all quantum spheres are entangled ,with or without rotations .

The fact to be in contact implies the gear system .

Very interesting in all case this gear idea .

Sincerely

Steve

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The fact to be in contact implies the gear system .

Very interesting in all case this gear idea .

Sincerely

Steve

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but of course this gear system is without notch ?? IN CONTACT but how is the sphere membran thus ???

Steve

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Steve

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Dear Sphere-keeper Steve,

Even the Octonions that Lawrence and I are dealing with are nearly-spherical Gosset lattices. I think the "gear notch" is the interaction vertex of the Feynman Diagram.

Have Fun!

Ray Munroe, author of A Geometrical Approach Towards A TOE

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Even the Octonions that Lawrence and I are dealing with are nearly-spherical Gosset lattices. I think the "gear notch" is the interaction vertex of the Feynman Diagram.

Have Fun!

Ray Munroe, author of A Geometrical Approach Towards A TOE

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Hello ,

Very interesting Dr Cosmic Ray .Could you develop a little please ?

An other idea is this one ,the pullies .

It's very relevant the properties of these pullies with the gravity too.

The fact to decrease proportionally the mass is relevant if we link with the Ultim entropy at these entangled spheres .

Regards

Steve

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Very interesting Dr Cosmic Ray .Could you develop a little please ?

An other idea is this one ,the pullies .

It's very relevant the properties of these pullies with the gravity too.

The fact to decrease proportionally the mass is relevant if we link with the Ultim entropy at these entangled spheres .

Regards

Steve

report post as inappropriate

Dear Steve,

My theory has "3-legged" fermion-boson-fermion Feynman diagrams. The initial fermion is 8-dimensional. The interaction boson can have dimensionality up to 11. And the final fermion is also 8-dimensional (but it must be a different set of 8-D within the 12-D K12' lattice). Now we have 8D+11D+8D=27 dimensions - consistent with Lawrence's 27-dimensional "3-octonions" or "J27" with a 3-D transformation.

Getting back to Mohammed's ideas, perhaps his "3-geared" model is an alternative (non-Particle Physics) representation of a "3-legged" Feynman diagram. If we treat these matter fermions and interaction bosons as "zero-D point particles", then we cannot find a physical "gear" anywhere in the problem. The interaction boson exchanges quantum numbers (such as energy, momentum, color, electric charge, etc.) with the initial and final state fermions at the vertex of the Feynman diagram. Thus, the effective "gear" (or "pulley" or whatever mechanical process you want to call it) is this vertex.

I understand that Mohammed's background is in Plasma Physics. I once studied that field, and designed an experiment on the Texas Experimental Tokamak (TEXT) back in the '80's. Quite frankly, there are major differences between Plasma and Particle Physics, and it is reasonable that his analogies and "normal" particle physics analogies would be different.

Have Fun!

Ray Munroe

report post as inappropriate

My theory has "3-legged" fermion-boson-fermion Feynman diagrams. The initial fermion is 8-dimensional. The interaction boson can have dimensionality up to 11. And the final fermion is also 8-dimensional (but it must be a different set of 8-D within the 12-D K12' lattice). Now we have 8D+11D+8D=27 dimensions - consistent with Lawrence's 27-dimensional "3-octonions" or "J27" with a 3-D transformation.

Getting back to Mohammed's ideas, perhaps his "3-geared" model is an alternative (non-Particle Physics) representation of a "3-legged" Feynman diagram. If we treat these matter fermions and interaction bosons as "zero-D point particles", then we cannot find a physical "gear" anywhere in the problem. The interaction boson exchanges quantum numbers (such as energy, momentum, color, electric charge, etc.) with the initial and final state fermions at the vertex of the Feynman diagram. Thus, the effective "gear" (or "pulley" or whatever mechanical process you want to call it) is this vertex.

I understand that Mohammed's background is in Plasma Physics. I once studied that field, and designed an experiment on the Texas Experimental Tokamak (TEXT) back in the '80's. Quite frankly, there are major differences between Plasma and Particle Physics, and it is reasonable that his analogies and "normal" particle physics analogies would be different.

Have Fun!

Ray Munroe

report post as inappropriate

Dear Ray

Thanks for your interest in my work. Yes I am plasma physicist, but am interested in as well in particle physics and special relativity. My first publication was a book in Meson family that was before attending the BSc. Course. During my academic career I used to lecture in these subjects.

However, I was fascinated by the geometrical summitry of particle distribution models (by the way I found that beauty in your assay). It has the same beauty of the periodical table of elements. The discovery of atom solved the secrete beyond that beauty. In case of elementary particle such a case is not acceptable, since we are dealing with dimensionless creatures (particle) and there is no structure.

I think the great obstruction in front of physics is the limit of observation. That limit is beyond the concept of particle (special relativity) and complex wave (quantum mechanics).

Regards,

Mohammed

Thanks for your interest in my work. Yes I am plasma physicist, but am interested in as well in particle physics and special relativity. My first publication was a book in Meson family that was before attending the BSc. Course. During my academic career I used to lecture in these subjects.

However, I was fascinated by the geometrical summitry of particle distribution models (by the way I found that beauty in your assay). It has the same beauty of the periodical table of elements. The discovery of atom solved the secrete beyond that beauty. In case of elementary particle such a case is not acceptable, since we are dealing with dimensionless creatures (particle) and there is no structure.

I think the great obstruction in front of physics is the limit of observation. That limit is beyond the concept of particle (special relativity) and complex wave (quantum mechanics).

Regards,

Mohammed

Dear Mohammed,

Yes, I also love symmetries. As you point out, it was symmetries that allowed us to understand the Periodic Table, and later the families of Mesons and Baryons. It will also be symmetries that allow us to push towards the next level of understanding "particles". We are at the observation limit. Even if the LHC discovers the Higgs, I don't expect it to greatly expand our observation limit. The Universe throws apparently exotic stuff at us on a regular basis. We need to use our best techniques to analyze Cosmic rays and push beyond the current observation limit. Lawrence Crowell suggested that the glacier ice plates of Europa might contain many old Cosmic ray tracks that we might be able read Centuries after the fact.

Good Luck in the contest!

Ray Munroe

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Yes, I also love symmetries. As you point out, it was symmetries that allowed us to understand the Periodic Table, and later the families of Mesons and Baryons. It will also be symmetries that allow us to push towards the next level of understanding "particles". We are at the observation limit. Even if the LHC discovers the Higgs, I don't expect it to greatly expand our observation limit. The Universe throws apparently exotic stuff at us on a regular basis. We need to use our best techniques to analyze Cosmic rays and push beyond the current observation limit. Lawrence Crowell suggested that the glacier ice plates of Europa might contain many old Cosmic ray tracks that we might be able read Centuries after the fact.

Good Luck in the contest!

Ray Munroe

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Hi to both of you,

Thanks for your explainations Ray .

Vertex ?? I am going to learn more about it .

About the periodic Tables ,Thanks Mendeleev ...a beautiful taxonomy .

About the glacier ,yes indeed like say Lawrence and too many methan ....CH4 .

Regards

Steve

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Thanks for your explainations Ray .

Vertex ?? I am going to learn more about it .

About the periodic Tables ,Thanks Mendeleev ...a beautiful taxonomy .

About the glacier ,yes indeed like say Lawrence and too many methan ....CH4 .

Regards

Steve

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The experimental discovery of the golden mean should come as no surprise to anyone who is familiar with the VAK. The VAK attractor of Kolomogorov is a conjecture made by the great French topologist Rene Thom. It is nothing more than applying KAM theorem to quantum mechanic. KAM theorem states that the most stable stationary states which are called periodic orbits correspond to the most irrational winding numbers. The most irrational number is the golden mean. Applied to quantum mechanics, this means that the most stable particle which can be observed experimentally will relate to the golden mean. That is all folks. You see we theoretical physicists have always a minimum of new ideas. Our ideas are always extremely simple. We tend to prefer making very difficult computations rather than strenuous thinking using new ideas. All what distinguishes Mohamed El Naschie from the rest of us is that he was less lazy with regards to new ideas and extremely lazy when it comes to strenuous computations. That is how he came to the VAK and he tried it out. The discovery of the golden mean in quantum mechanic in Helmholtz Centre must be a triumph for the VAK. It is not a triumph for Mohamed El Naschie because no one person has ever done anything on his own. It is always the collective effort of humanity. If Rene Thom would be alive today, he would have bagged a Nobel Prize in physics besides his field medal in mathematics. If you do not want to give Mohamed El Naschie a prize because he is a Muslim, I assure you many Christians, Jews as well as atheists worked on the VAK. I am sure you will find somebody suitable who is not offensive to the establishment to give a Nobel Prize to for solving the mystery of quantum mechanics.

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