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FQXi BLOGS

July 17, 2019

Earlier this month, in Science (Vol. 322, p. 1525), P. Eckle et al. reported an experiment from which they conclude that an electron can tunnel through the potential barrier of an He atom in practically no time. This would indeed be a fundamental discovery, but I think the analysis of their technically brilliant experiment is faulty. It may instead represent further evidence that the...

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this post has been edited by the author since its original submission

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Earlier this month, in Science (Vol. 322, p. 1525), P. Eckle et al. reported an experiment from which they conclude that an electron can tunnel through the potential barrier of an He atom in practically no time.

Yes it is so electron move into space only and space is atemporal (timeless)

duration of motion into atemporal space we measure with clocks, so time is a "coordinate of motion" in atemporal space

see more on file attached

attachments: 1_In_The_Theory_of_Relativity__Time_is_a_Coordinate_of_Motion__Sorli__FOUNDATIONS_OF_PHYSICS_2009.doc

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Yes it is so electron move into space only and space is atemporal (timeless)

duration of motion into atemporal space we measure with clocks, so time is a "coordinate of motion" in atemporal space

see more on file attached

attachments: 1_In_The_Theory_of_Relativity__Time_is_a_Coordinate_of_Motion__Sorli__FOUNDATIONS_OF_PHYSICS_2009.doc

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see also

Eleven steps to right understanding of time

1. Motion of objects and particles do not happen in time, it happens in space only.

2. Time is what we measure with clocks: with clocks we measure duration and numerical order of massive objects and elementary particles motion into space.

3. As a “fourth” coordinate of space-time time is a “coordinate of motion”, it describes motion of massive bodies and particles into space.

4. Space-time is a math model only; space-time does not exist as a physical reality.

5. In a model of space-time we describe motion of objects and particles into space.

6. Space itself is atemporal.

7. Humans experience atemporal space as a present moment.

8. Past and future exists only in the mind; physical past and future do not exist.

9. Time as a “coordinate of motion” is not elementary physical quantity as energy, matter, space and motion are.

10. Time as a coordinate of motion exists only when we measure it.

11. Universe is an atemporal phenomenon.

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Eleven steps to right understanding of time

1. Motion of objects and particles do not happen in time, it happens in space only.

2. Time is what we measure with clocks: with clocks we measure duration and numerical order of massive objects and elementary particles motion into space.

3. As a “fourth” coordinate of space-time time is a “coordinate of motion”, it describes motion of massive bodies and particles into space.

4. Space-time is a math model only; space-time does not exist as a physical reality.

5. In a model of space-time we describe motion of objects and particles into space.

6. Space itself is atemporal.

7. Humans experience atemporal space as a present moment.

8. Past and future exists only in the mind; physical past and future do not exist.

9. Time as a “coordinate of motion” is not elementary physical quantity as energy, matter, space and motion are.

10. Time as a coordinate of motion exists only when we measure it.

11. Universe is an atemporal phenomenon.

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The experimentalists can experiment and interpret as much as they like. As long as they can't construct a device that can send information faster than light (using tunneling or not), they don't have much to show for in these type of experiments.

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First of all I have to apologize for taking issue while I am not a physicist. I agree with Count Iblis and also with the blogger when who wrote:

So the true scandal is that such misleading interpretations are readily accepted (or uncritically commented) by reputed journals, such as PRL, Science or Nature.

Papers, for instance, by my superiors Nitsch and Omar proved Nimtz wrong. Cf. also http://home.arcor.de/eckard.blumschein.de/M283.htmland

http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/369 including attachments part 1 and part 2.

So far, my very uncommon view did not find acceptance, and I wonder if Prof. Zeh will consider to abandon a part of his work. However, I am delighted that he shares this perhaps compelling argument of mine: One must not always assume signals, tails of which are thought to symmetrically extend from -infinity to +infinity as for instance the Gauss signal. This normally works well as an excellent approximation while it also may give rise to wrong results.

Let me once again point to a paper by Gompf et al. 1997 in PRL. Compared to directly measured pressure as a function of time, results from the method of single photon counting looked bell-shaped as if larger random delay was added.

This made me skeptical concerning claimed evidence for related methods including quantum computing.

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So the true scandal is that such misleading interpretations are readily accepted (or uncritically commented) by reputed journals, such as PRL, Science or Nature.

Papers, for instance, by my superiors Nitsch and Omar proved Nimtz wrong. Cf. also http://home.arcor.de/eckard.blumschein.de/M283.htmland

http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/369 including attachments part 1 and part 2.

So far, my very uncommon view did not find acceptance, and I wonder if Prof. Zeh will consider to abandon a part of his work. However, I am delighted that he shares this perhaps compelling argument of mine: One must not always assume signals, tails of which are thought to symmetrically extend from -infinity to +infinity as for instance the Gauss signal. This normally works well as an excellent approximation while it also may give rise to wrong results.

Let me once again point to a paper by Gompf et al. 1997 in PRL. Compared to directly measured pressure as a function of time, results from the method of single photon counting looked bell-shaped as if larger random delay was added.

This made me skeptical concerning claimed evidence for related methods including quantum computing.

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Dear Dieter Zeh,

Thank you for working to debunk nonsensical interpretations of physics. Much of these ideas seem to come from the use of imaginary time in physics. I am still new to the subject and I would like to know how we justify time (even if it is reversible) using a branch of mathematics that has no ordering.

The measurement problem in physics is where it is implied that imaginary time is ordered:

(...[-itn,...,-it2,-it1,0,it1,it2,...,itn]...)

The mathematical axioms tell us that complex numbers can not be ordered.

Order Axioms:

1) A number can not be less than itself

2) x > y, x < y, or x = y

3) if x > 0 and y > 0, then xy > 0

4) if x < y, then for all z, x + z < z + y

5) if x < y, then for all z, xz < yz

set x = i and y = 2i and z= 2 + i

1) makes sense

2) i < 2i makes sense

3) a bit tricky:

0 = 0 + 0i and i = 0 +1i therefore i>0 and 2i>0

(i)(2i) > 0 ---> -2 > 0 FALSE!

4) 2 + 2i < 2 + 3i (complex # is of the form a + bi)

5) This is the key axiom!

xz = what exactly? xz or x*z (* is complex conjugate i*=-i)

If we distribute xz as we do for real numbers then axiom 5 is false. If we take the complex conjugate x*z then axiom 5 is true.

Quantum mechanics relies on C* algebra which is ordered. What is the big idea of C* algebra? C*C, multiply a complex number by a complex conjugate and you end up with a real ordered/countable number.

By the axioms of math the measurement problem should not exist in physics.

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Thank you for working to debunk nonsensical interpretations of physics. Much of these ideas seem to come from the use of imaginary time in physics. I am still new to the subject and I would like to know how we justify time (even if it is reversible) using a branch of mathematics that has no ordering.

The measurement problem in physics is where it is implied that imaginary time is ordered:

(...[-itn,...,-it2,-it1,0,it1,it2,...,itn]...)

The mathematical axioms tell us that complex numbers can not be ordered.

Order Axioms:

1) A number can not be less than itself

2) x > y, x < y, or x = y

3) if x > 0 and y > 0, then xy > 0

4) if x < y, then for all z, x + z < z + y

5) if x < y, then for all z, xz < yz

set x = i and y = 2i and z= 2 + i

1) makes sense

2) i < 2i makes sense

3) a bit tricky:

0 = 0 + 0i and i = 0 +1i therefore i>0 and 2i>0

(i)(2i) > 0 ---> -2 > 0 FALSE!

4) 2 + 2i < 2 + 3i (complex # is of the form a + bi)

5) This is the key axiom!

xz = what exactly? xz or x*z (* is complex conjugate i*=-i)

If we distribute xz as we do for real numbers then axiom 5 is false. If we take the complex conjugate x*z then axiom 5 is true.

Quantum mechanics relies on C* algebra which is ordered. What is the big idea of C* algebra? C*C, multiply a complex number by a complex conjugate and you end up with a real ordered/countable number.

By the axioms of math the measurement problem should not exist in physics.

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In quantum physics they are some experiments where speed of information motion seems to be faster than light speed. In order to overcome this puzzle an option is that information does not move between particle A and B. Space itself is the direct information medium between particle A and B. This solution gives an original interpretation of Einsten-Podolski-Rosen experiment and of causality problems for Fermi’s two-atom system. In both examples space is the direct information medium between particles A and B. Where space is the direct information medium, there is no time needed for information to be transferred from particle A to particle B.

attachments: Relation_between_Information_Time_and_Space_Sorli__2009.doc

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attachments: Relation_between_Information_Time_and_Space_Sorli__2009.doc

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Those at PRL, etc. who were blamed for scandalously turning a blind eye did not yet respond. There are reasons for me to take issue again. At first, I would like to provide enough details concerning the mentioned paper by Gompf et al. including Eisenmenger.

After that, I will partially comment on what Brian Beverly wrote.

B. Gompf; R. Günther; Nick; R. Pecha; W. Eisenmenger:...

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After that, I will partially comment on what Brian Beverly wrote.

B. Gompf; R. Günther; Nick; R. Pecha; W. Eisenmenger:...

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At level of Planck information and energy transfer are immediate.

Quantum space is made out of quanta of space size of Planck.

Quantum space itself is a direct medium of information by EPR experiment and is also direct medium of gravity.

By Superluminal phenomena energy and information transfer tun over quantum space itself

See more on file attached

attachments: 3_Indirect_and_Direct_Quantum_Information_and_Quantum_Energy_Transfer_Sorli__2009.pdf

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Quantum space is made out of quanta of space size of Planck.

Quantum space itself is a direct medium of information by EPR experiment and is also direct medium of gravity.

By Superluminal phenomena energy and information transfer tun over quantum space itself

See more on file attached

attachments: 3_Indirect_and_Direct_Quantum_Information_and_Quantum_Energy_Transfer_Sorli__2009.pdf

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we can not deny that information and energy transfer can be immediate, as some expariments prove that

attachments: Direct_Quantum_Energy_Transfer_Sorli__2009.pdf

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attachments: Direct_Quantum_Energy_Transfer_Sorli__2009.pdf

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Zeh argues:The interpretation of an electron as a single particle might be wrong. Then the experiment by Eckle et al. must not be considered as evidence for superluminal tunneling.

Zeh already provided immediate access to the paper of concern, the same paper that Sorli quotes as evidence putatively backing Sorli's obviously rather vaguely presented ideas. Zeh substantiated his suspicion, and I tried to to add further indications for the need of a clarification.

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Zeh already provided immediate access to the paper of concern, the same paper that Sorli quotes as evidence putatively backing Sorli's obviously rather vaguely presented ideas. Zeh substantiated his suspicion, and I tried to to add further indications for the need of a clarification.

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Hi Eckart

For me electron is a packet of energy that is transmitted directly between quanta of space QS. It “jumps” from QS to other QS. Quantum space we can imagine like a space made out of grains. Time (Duration) of one jump is zero. When we than calculate 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 ………sum is 0. This means that energy transfer of electron has infinite speed and that time (t) of transfer on distance d is always zero. I’m sure such a model of electron can be described mathematically in a correct way.

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For me electron is a packet of energy that is transmitted directly between quanta of space QS. It “jumps” from QS to other QS. Quantum space we can imagine like a space made out of grains. Time (Duration) of one jump is zero. When we than calculate 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 ………sum is 0. This means that energy transfer of electron has infinite speed and that time (t) of transfer on distance d is always zero. I’m sure such a model of electron can be described mathematically in a correct way.

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The space-time manifold of special relativity cannot be considered primary and fundamental in order to understand and explain quantum processes, in particular quantum non-locality. A new order is necessary which must take into account that non-locality is well explained by the like-space action of quantum potential. One can therefore introduce the idea that the instantaneous communication between subatomic particles is linked to space which functions as an immediate information medium. The most adequate candidate to represent mathematically the idea of space as an immediate information medium appears to be the symmetrized quantum potential. In the presence of subatomic particles, space assumes the special state represented by the symmetrized quantum potential which produces an instantaneous communication between them and allows us to interpret in a correct and appropriate way both the forward-time and the time-reverse of the same physical process.

see more on file attacherd

attachments: Non_locality_and_the_Symmetrized_Quantum_Potential_.pdf

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see more on file attacherd

attachments: Non_locality_and_the_Symmetrized_Quantum_Potential_.pdf

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Perpetuum mobile is part of IPC. PRL etc. must carefully check any new claim providing evidence for action at distance faster than light while it would be funny to read these claims at their due place within the international patent classification IPC.

Are the ideas of perpetuum mobile and superluminal phenomena valuable? I think so. Sorli came to a remarkable conclusion:

"The space-time manifold of special relativity cannot be considered primary and fundamental...". Indeed, Einstein's 1907 model for solids is based on harmonic oscillators thought to exist unchanged forever.

Let me point to what I consider most remarkable in the inauguration speech of the 44th president of god's own land: respect to various religions - and to non-believers. Einstein considered himself a believing physicist for whom the division into past, presence and future has merely the meaning of an albeit obstinate illusion. I humbly remind of the fact that observation is primary a process at now, and therefore future events can definitely not be measured in advance.

Therefore I am not worried if someone comes with a new sensational perpetuum mobile, superluminal phenomenon, quantum computer, found Higgs boson, aliens visiting us or the like. I do not read tabloid papers like ...

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Are the ideas of perpetuum mobile and superluminal phenomena valuable? I think so. Sorli came to a remarkable conclusion:

"The space-time manifold of special relativity cannot be considered primary and fundamental...". Indeed, Einstein's 1907 model for solids is based on harmonic oscillators thought to exist unchanged forever.

Let me point to what I consider most remarkable in the inauguration speech of the 44th president of god's own land: respect to various religions - and to non-believers. Einstein considered himself a believing physicist for whom the division into past, presence and future has merely the meaning of an albeit obstinate illusion. I humbly remind of the fact that observation is primary a process at now, and therefore future events can definitely not be measured in advance.

Therefore I am not worried if someone comes with a new sensational perpetuum mobile, superluminal phenomenon, quantum computer, found Higgs boson, aliens visiting us or the like. I do not read tabloid papers like ...

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Eckart

In space is always NOW. Time (clocks) are measure of motion in space (now).

Some quantum phenomena are immediate, energy and information transfer are happening in quantum space (NOW) itself.

This phenomena are superluminal as gravity and EPR experiment.

yours amrit

attachments: 3_ETERNITY_IS_NOW___Sorli__2009.pdf

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In space is always NOW. Time (clocks) are measure of motion in space (now).

Some quantum phenomena are immediate, energy and information transfer are happening in quantum space (NOW) itself.

This phenomena are superluminal as gravity and EPR experiment.

yours amrit

attachments: 3_ETERNITY_IS_NOW___Sorli__2009.pdf

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Albert Einstein, Boris Podolsky and Nathan Rosen wrote a paper 'Can Quantum Mechanical Description of Physical Reality be Considered Complete?'. It was published in Phys. Rev. vol. 47, 777-780 (1935). They did not at all perform physical experiments. At that time, so called Gedankenexperimente were discussed instead.

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Revision of fundamental physical terms

based on elementary perception

About meaning of term “table” we all agree because term “table” is build up on the base of elementary perception (sight).

Term “time” is build on abstract level of the mind, time we can not observe with exes directly, result is about what time is we have different opinions and images.

On...

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based on elementary perception

About meaning of term “table” we all agree because term “table” is build up on the base of elementary perception (sight).

Term “time” is build on abstract level of the mind, time we can not observe with exes directly, result is about what time is we have different opinions and images.

On...

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Has ST been observed? Obviously not. Will there be more attempts to do what is impossible? Most likely yes.

Not just those who write EVEDENCE instead of evidence but also Eckart instead of Eckard seem to be not in position to accept that there is an objective difference between reality and models abstracted from it.

Our five senses cannot at all perceive reality but merely check...

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Not just those who write EVEDENCE instead of evidence but also Eckart instead of Eckard seem to be not in position to accept that there is an objective difference between reality and models abstracted from it.

Our five senses cannot at all perceive reality but merely check...

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Eckard i was writing without glassses, so some mistces.

Also by standing waves time is a measure of amplitude.

Basic unit of time is PLANCK TIME.

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Also by standing waves time is a measure of amplitude.

Basic unit of time is PLANCK TIME.

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im back home, with glasses, now I hope my essay will be understood better

Revision of Fundamental Physical Quantities based on Perceptional Evidence Test

About what is table we all agree because term “table” is build up on the base of elementary perception (sight).

Term “time” is build on the abstract level of the mind, time we cannot observe with exes directly, result...

view entire post

Revision of Fundamental Physical Quantities based on Perceptional Evidence Test

About what is table we all agree because term “table” is build up on the base of elementary perception (sight).

Term “time” is build on the abstract level of the mind, time we cannot observe with exes directly, result...

view entire post

attachments: 4._ATemporal_Gravitation_And_Hypothetical_Gravitational_Waves__EJTP.pdf, 4_6._Consciousness_As_A_Research_Tool_Into_Space_And_Time.pdf

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Did mathematics really overrule physics? Who understands his tools will rarely have problems with interpretation of belonging results. I am maintaining that many physicists are still naively believing a complex-valued Ansatz, a sine function between -oo and +oo, a Gaussian wave packet, and the like automatically reflect reality. Complex representation of a real function does not at all increase the degree of freedom. It merely arbitrarily adds redundancy which may confuse and obviously actually confused physicists like Schroedinger.

When I am suggesting "let's benefit from restriction of mathematics to elapsed time", this is meant as a touchstone rather than just avoidance of redundancy.

As an old EE, I am well familiar with negative differential resistance and the like. However, neither theory nor practice provide any serious support for transfer of signals faster than light. The shown huge apparatus makes me smile. Why not being open for a new perpetuum mobile - as a claimed invention among millions of pointless patents, not as a sad sensation in Science or the like.

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When I am suggesting "let's benefit from restriction of mathematics to elapsed time", this is meant as a touchstone rather than just avoidance of redundancy.

As an old EE, I am well familiar with negative differential resistance and the like. However, neither theory nor practice provide any serious support for transfer of signals faster than light. The shown huge apparatus makes me smile. Why not being open for a new perpetuum mobile - as a claimed invention among millions of pointless patents, not as a sad sensation in Science or the like.

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"Those who reiterate "time is a measure of motion" should be aware of standing waves."

aka temperature.

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aka temperature.

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Eckart gravity is immediate.

All experiments done on gravity confirms that

gravity exists in space only and not in time.

Time is only a measure of motion in space.

Gravity is superluminal phenomena.

Speed of gravity propagation is infinite.

attachments: 1_Direct_Quantum_Energy_Transfer_Sorli__2009.pdf

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All experiments done on gravity confirms that

gravity exists in space only and not in time.

Time is only a measure of motion in space.

Gravity is superluminal phenomena.

Speed of gravity propagation is infinite.

attachments: 1_Direct_Quantum_Energy_Transfer_Sorli__2009.pdf

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about direct quantum communication see

http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/0295-5075/84/2/20013

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http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/0295-5075/84/2/20013

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Amrit, Are you suggesting superluminal modulation of gravitational force? In order to get a patent for this invention you have to explain the method step by step. As with a new perpetuum mobile and with allegedly already working as promised quantum computers, quantum encryption and the like, the examiner will not judge whether or not your reasoning is elusive. It should be easy for you criticizing the state of the art, convincing the examiner of the originality of your method, and promise huge benefits.

However, you can neither impress him by a record of exciting publications nor by the promise that you will additionally find even more unbelievable facts.

Good luck,

Eckard

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However, you can neither impress him by a record of exciting publications nor by the promise that you will additionally find even more unbelievable facts.

Good luck,

Eckard

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Eckard

regarding gravity is a non-propagating force that exists between quanta of space see

http://www.chronos.msu.ru/EREPORTS/sarli_the_theory.pdf

yours

amrit

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regarding gravity is a non-propagating force that exists between quanta of space see

http://www.chronos.msu.ru/EREPORTS/sarli_the_theory.pdf

yours

amrit

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Amrit wrote:Gravity is superluminal phenomena. Speed of gravity propagation is infinite. .. gravity is a non-propagating force that exists between quanta of space

No comment

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No comment

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Eckard

when speed is infinite there is no motion, gravity is the result of quantum structure of space. By superluminal phenomena space is a direct information and energy medium. Information and energy transfer are immediate, so there is actually no speed of transfer,

but we say that speed is infinite

"infinite speed" is not numerical valuated

"infinite speed + 100 km/h is still "infinite speed"

this is out of the Theory of infinite numbers

so what “infinite speed” is exactly, we do not know, it is a math formulation to express superluminal phenomena

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when speed is infinite there is no motion, gravity is the result of quantum structure of space. By superluminal phenomena space is a direct information and energy medium. Information and energy transfer are immediate, so there is actually no speed of transfer,

but we say that speed is infinite

"infinite speed" is not numerical valuated

"infinite speed + 100 km/h is still "infinite speed"

this is out of the Theory of infinite numbers

so what “infinite speed” is exactly, we do not know, it is a math formulation to express superluminal phenomena

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I dug out this article from my geological file. I have not reread the article, but I think the point is that an attosecond time scale could be measured this way. Clearly the electron wave function was not initially localized completely, and removing the potential just found the electron in a position removed in such a way that it gives the appearance of superluminal travel. I don't think the authors are saying the electron causally propagated faster than light. Clearly information was not communicated faster than light.

Lawrence B. Crowell

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Lawrence B. Crowell

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According to the Prime quaternion model..

Because the 4th dimension runs perpendicular to 3D vector space, when the electron is "orbiting" the atom it is within 3D space. When it moves between orbitals it does not cross 3D space but moves perpendicular to 3D space, along the 4th dimension, to its new orbital. It can not be detected between orbitals in 3D space because it is not there. (To understand how this motion occurs it is important to understand where the 4th dimension runs relative to the position of matter in space.) It is then "orbiting" once more within 3D space. This change in orbital is caused by the input of energy to electron (usually from a photon) which allows it to move aft along the 4th dimension, against the pull of the strong nuclear force.

When an electron quantum leaps to a higher orbital it is moving aft i.e. further back along the 4th dimension compared to its previous orbital and the nucleus of the atom and is gaining in potential energy. When it “falls back” as is said in common parlance, it will be moving afore relative to its previous position and will have lost potential energy, resulting in a photon of disturbance within the Prime sub atomic condensate.

................

Quantum tunnelling occurs when an electron, that has insufficient energy to cross an energetic barrier, appears to react as if the barrier did not exist. The electron has not surmounted the energy barrier moving through space but by moving along the 4th dimension. Just as an electron can jump between energy levels within an atom, a free electron can loose potential energy, altering its 4th dimensional position.

When the electron looses potential energy it jumps to a new energy level further afore along the 4th dimension. The electron instantly takes up a new position in visible 3D vector space beyond the barrier, having moved directly along the 4th dimension. The energetic barrier that is too high, due to insufficient kinetic energy in visible 3D vector space is crossed by losing potential energy and changed 4D spatial position results.

from The Prime Quaternion model.

This does not disagree with Einstein's assertion that nothing can travel in space faster than the speed of light because this is motion directly along the 4th dimension, which has hitherto been thought of as the time dimension, rather than motion across 3D vector space.

All matter and energy visible in our 3D vector space is continuously changing position along the 4th dimension, giving rise to the experience of time. This includes standing waves. So nothing is stationary. It is this motion (continuous change in position) that gives rise to the formation of all matter, structure, forces and time.

In my opinion.

It can be seen that the above description implies that the dimensions of space can be visualised as spatial or considered as energetic. The universe constantly moving from higher to lower potential energy along the 4th dimension.

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Because the 4th dimension runs perpendicular to 3D vector space, when the electron is "orbiting" the atom it is within 3D space. When it moves between orbitals it does not cross 3D space but moves perpendicular to 3D space, along the 4th dimension, to its new orbital. It can not be detected between orbitals in 3D space because it is not there. (To understand how this motion occurs it is important to understand where the 4th dimension runs relative to the position of matter in space.) It is then "orbiting" once more within 3D space. This change in orbital is caused by the input of energy to electron (usually from a photon) which allows it to move aft along the 4th dimension, against the pull of the strong nuclear force.

When an electron quantum leaps to a higher orbital it is moving aft i.e. further back along the 4th dimension compared to its previous orbital and the nucleus of the atom and is gaining in potential energy. When it “falls back” as is said in common parlance, it will be moving afore relative to its previous position and will have lost potential energy, resulting in a photon of disturbance within the Prime sub atomic condensate.

................

Quantum tunnelling occurs when an electron, that has insufficient energy to cross an energetic barrier, appears to react as if the barrier did not exist. The electron has not surmounted the energy barrier moving through space but by moving along the 4th dimension. Just as an electron can jump between energy levels within an atom, a free electron can loose potential energy, altering its 4th dimensional position.

When the electron looses potential energy it jumps to a new energy level further afore along the 4th dimension. The electron instantly takes up a new position in visible 3D vector space beyond the barrier, having moved directly along the 4th dimension. The energetic barrier that is too high, due to insufficient kinetic energy in visible 3D vector space is crossed by losing potential energy and changed 4D spatial position results.

from The Prime Quaternion model.

This does not disagree with Einstein's assertion that nothing can travel in space faster than the speed of light because this is motion directly along the 4th dimension, which has hitherto been thought of as the time dimension, rather than motion across 3D vector space.

All matter and energy visible in our 3D vector space is continuously changing position along the 4th dimension, giving rise to the experience of time. This includes standing waves. So nothing is stationary. It is this motion (continuous change in position) that gives rise to the formation of all matter, structure, forces and time.

In my opinion.

It can be seen that the above description implies that the dimensions of space can be visualised as spatial or considered as energetic. The universe constantly moving from higher to lower potential energy along the 4th dimension.

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Georgina,

the topic is: Has it been observed? Yes or no? Can you contribute something in addition to Prof. em. Zeh?

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the topic is: Has it been observed? Yes or no? Can you contribute something in addition to Prof. em. Zeh?

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Eckard,

I do not know all of the details of how the experiment was conducted, results obtained, what errors were considered, I am not an expert in this field, so I do not feel qualified to say yes or no it was actually observed.

I am stating that an alternative model could be used to interpret the results.That model permits superluminal change of position and communication.It is a consequence of the redefinition of time. I tried to explain this further above and how it does not disagree with Einstein as it is not motion through 3D vector space.

I think it is important to consider how the experimental design may affect the results, when change in potential energy is equated to change in 4th spatio-energetic dimensional position of a particle.

If other models are used to interpret the results different conclusions may be drawn.

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I do not know all of the details of how the experiment was conducted, results obtained, what errors were considered, I am not an expert in this field, so I do not feel qualified to say yes or no it was actually observed.

I am stating that an alternative model could be used to interpret the results.That model permits superluminal change of position and communication.It is a consequence of the redefinition of time. I tried to explain this further above and how it does not disagree with Einstein as it is not motion through 3D vector space.

I think it is important to consider how the experimental design may affect the results, when change in potential energy is equated to change in 4th spatio-energetic dimensional position of a particle.

If other models are used to interpret the results different conclusions may be drawn.

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I should qualify that previous post by saying that the change in position only appears to be superluminal from a 3D vector space perspective.

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Georgina,

Why not considering to interpret the 'experiment' as a one more elusive claim? Does not FQXi mean foundational institute? I do not see foundations made sure by further and further add speculations that are based on accepted ones.

Prof. Zeh explained his doubts. Didn't I try to add my experience? In order to possibly understand my very fundamental objections you might read my essay 369, the belonging attachments, and my IEEE paper preferably as corrected by Fritzius and available at

http://home.arcor.de/eckard.blumschein/M283.html

We do not need redefinitions of notions like infinity, time, money, etc. unless we try to cheat ourselves.

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Why not considering to interpret the 'experiment' as a one more elusive claim? Does not FQXi mean foundational institute? I do not see foundations made sure by further and further add speculations that are based on accepted ones.

Prof. Zeh explained his doubts. Didn't I try to add my experience? In order to possibly understand my very fundamental objections you might read my essay 369, the belonging attachments, and my IEEE paper preferably as corrected by Fritzius and available at

http://home.arcor.de/eckard.blumschein/M283.html

We do not need redefinitions of notions like infinity, time, money, etc. unless we try to cheat ourselves.

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Thank you I will read your papers when I have the time and if I understand them, I may find myself better educated by the experience.

I appreciate that you feel the claim of the experimenters must be in error and you and Prof. Zeh have explained why, giving your understanding of the nature and behaviour of the electron. You may be correct.

However if the model of the electron and its behaviour that you are using is incorrect then your conclusions may be in error despite the correct application of the model you are using.

According to the prime quaternion model, instantaneous action occurs due to the change in position of an electron along the 4th spatial dimension i.e. change in potential energy.It is able to move within all 4 dimensions of space in all directions.

I think we must disagree on your last point. The Current problems of physics are in my opinion due to a few misunderstandings that permeate all fields from quantum physics to cosmology.

Firstly is the confused concept of time that needs separating into three (at least) separate concepts. Ht, t and Ut.

Secondly recognition of the Prime reality interface between objective and subjective reality.Subjective reality only being formed by information transfer from objective reality.

Thirdly that there are 4 spatio-energetic dimensions, 3 vector 1 scalar not 3 space and 1 time.

Fourthly that all matter is continuous motion along the 4th dimension, that is decreasing in potential energy, whereas subatomic particles are able to move within 4 dimensional space in all directions.

In addition it should be recognised that the universe is not expanding but coming together due to motion along the 4th dimension.That the material universe is not in a state of increasing entropy but increasing order.

These may be difficult to accept because current ideas have been accepted as undeniable truths.They are taught as fact rather than theory.People have learned them and then taught them to others. However they are incorrect and the puzzles of science will remain so long as these fundamental errors are not addressed.In my opinion.

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I appreciate that you feel the claim of the experimenters must be in error and you and Prof. Zeh have explained why, giving your understanding of the nature and behaviour of the electron. You may be correct.

However if the model of the electron and its behaviour that you are using is incorrect then your conclusions may be in error despite the correct application of the model you are using.

According to the prime quaternion model, instantaneous action occurs due to the change in position of an electron along the 4th spatial dimension i.e. change in potential energy.It is able to move within all 4 dimensions of space in all directions.

I think we must disagree on your last point. The Current problems of physics are in my opinion due to a few misunderstandings that permeate all fields from quantum physics to cosmology.

Firstly is the confused concept of time that needs separating into three (at least) separate concepts. Ht, t and Ut.

Secondly recognition of the Prime reality interface between objective and subjective reality.Subjective reality only being formed by information transfer from objective reality.

Thirdly that there are 4 spatio-energetic dimensions, 3 vector 1 scalar not 3 space and 1 time.

Fourthly that all matter is continuous motion along the 4th dimension, that is decreasing in potential energy, whereas subatomic particles are able to move within 4 dimensional space in all directions.

In addition it should be recognised that the universe is not expanding but coming together due to motion along the 4th dimension.That the material universe is not in a state of increasing entropy but increasing order.

These may be difficult to accept because current ideas have been accepted as undeniable truths.They are taught as fact rather than theory.People have learned them and then taught them to others. However they are incorrect and the puzzles of science will remain so long as these fundamental errors are not addressed.In my opinion.

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Hi all ,

A very interesting debate .

The reality is foundamental ,we can extapolate many things but our dynamic is foundamental and has its limits of perception.

The truth is everywhere ,the most important is to analyze with pragmatism .

The imagination is correct when the reality and its foundations are real results .

Frankly about the superluminal travel ,is ,I am not sure ,perhaps there is instant information between the two world math /phys but the problem is not there ,we have so many difficulties to check motion and velocity on Earth and in Universe,energy too ,that's why we must accept our limits and evolve more quickly.

Is this superluminal travel is important at this time ,the question is there .I think no.

The science fiction or the science ,simply .

Kinds Regards

Steve

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A very interesting debate .

The reality is foundamental ,we can extapolate many things but our dynamic is foundamental and has its limits of perception.

The truth is everywhere ,the most important is to analyze with pragmatism .

The imagination is correct when the reality and its foundations are real results .

Frankly about the superluminal travel ,is ,I am not sure ,perhaps there is instant information between the two world math /phys but the problem is not there ,we have so many difficulties to check motion and velocity on Earth and in Universe,energy too ,that's why we must accept our limits and evolve more quickly.

Is this superluminal travel is important at this time ,the question is there .I think no.

The science fiction or the science ,simply .

Kinds Regards

Steve

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Steve,

I disagree. It is very important because it may show that our models for explaining the physical world and universe are incorrect. This impacts on vast areas of science and technology. It may show that we do not currently really understand our own technology and if technological solutions are sought for the problems of the 21st century, perhaps even the the fate of humanity is tied into this question.

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I disagree. It is very important because it may show that our models for explaining the physical world and universe are incorrect. This impacts on vast areas of science and technology. It may show that we do not currently really understand our own technology and if technological solutions are sought for the problems of the 21st century, perhaps even the the fate of humanity is tied into this question.

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Dear Georgina ,

I can understand that you do not agree, it is your right ,I just say my opinion.

I think that our mind has its limits in its extrapolations, and certain evidences seem to us based by a link with the universal laws.

I can understand that certain laws are still to be discovered and that our evolutionary stage is very young .

That said I do not perceive...

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I can understand that you do not agree, it is your right ,I just say my opinion.

I think that our mind has its limits in its extrapolations, and certain evidences seem to us based by a link with the universal laws.

I can understand that certain laws are still to be discovered and that our evolutionary stage is very young .

That said I do not perceive...

view entire post

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Thats a lot to take in at once Steve,

I would like to clarify that I am not saying that anything can travel faster than the speed of light, but from our 3D perspective it can appear to be doing so. The real question is how is it moving? Since the 4th dimension is currently considered the time dimension, movement along this dimension can be perceived as time travel or faster than light travel.This does not disagree with Einstein since the particle is not moving through visible 3D space.

The 4th dimension passes through every piece of matter from every point on the exterior to the centre of gravity and beyond. It is everywhere but has no single direction in 3D vector space. All matter is "falling into itself" but never collapsing in 3D space and it is being attracted to other matter "falling into itself" as it all moves along the 4th dimension. This gives rise to gravity and subjective time. Time is experienced because of the change in position. It is not that time made the change in position occur.

When a system becomes unbalanced at some stage an adjustment occurs to correct that imbalance. A high level of co-operation is possible under highly favourable conditions. As conditions deteriorate there is increasing competition leading to winners and loosers.

Nature is savage and cruel and selfish as well and beautiful,creative, nurturing and wonderful.So is mankind as a species. They are two sides of the same coin.

I have found the work of Dr. Hare(see www.bullyonline.org ) very enlightening as to the true nature of certain personality disorders and the disproportionate harm that they cause.Such people are present in all areas of human activity.Therefore I do not share your optimism.

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I would like to clarify that I am not saying that anything can travel faster than the speed of light, but from our 3D perspective it can appear to be doing so. The real question is how is it moving? Since the 4th dimension is currently considered the time dimension, movement along this dimension can be perceived as time travel or faster than light travel.This does not disagree with Einstein since the particle is not moving through visible 3D space.

The 4th dimension passes through every piece of matter from every point on the exterior to the centre of gravity and beyond. It is everywhere but has no single direction in 3D vector space. All matter is "falling into itself" but never collapsing in 3D space and it is being attracted to other matter "falling into itself" as it all moves along the 4th dimension. This gives rise to gravity and subjective time. Time is experienced because of the change in position. It is not that time made the change in position occur.

When a system becomes unbalanced at some stage an adjustment occurs to correct that imbalance. A high level of co-operation is possible under highly favourable conditions. As conditions deteriorate there is increasing competition leading to winners and loosers.

Nature is savage and cruel and selfish as well and beautiful,creative, nurturing and wonderful.So is mankind as a species. They are two sides of the same coin.

I have found the work of Dr. Hare(see www.bullyonline.org ) very enlightening as to the true nature of certain personality disorders and the disproportionate harm that they cause.Such people are present in all areas of human activity.Therefore I do not share your optimism.

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Diehter Zeh said" If the electron, as a particle, does not possess a trajectory (“because of the uncertainty relations”) it must acausally hop from here to there—possibly at superluminal speed. However, this hopping of postulated particles depends on artificial definitions."

I find that sentence a bit strange because surely all definitions of electrons are artificial.

If electrons are oscillating along the 4th dimension visualised as spatial rather than time, then it is not surprising that motion is affected by an energy change in the experiment and there is a resulting leap or hop. The 4th dimension can also be thought of as a scale of (universal) potential energy i.e.promotional energy.

This model explains the quantum leap.

In an atom the exterior of the atom is at a higher universal potential energy than the interior. When disturbed by a photon the electron gains universal potential energy (equivalent to the energy of the photon), which is equivalent to a 4th dimensional change in position.Change of position in space is equivalent to an energy change.

This is instantaneous from the 3D vector space perspective. The electron does not move through 3D space to its new position as this would involve kinetic energy, trajectory through 3D space and could not occur faster than light speed.It would also be possible to detect electrons between energy levels if this was the case.

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I find that sentence a bit strange because surely all definitions of electrons are artificial.

If electrons are oscillating along the 4th dimension visualised as spatial rather than time, then it is not surprising that motion is affected by an energy change in the experiment and there is a resulting leap or hop. The 4th dimension can also be thought of as a scale of (universal) potential energy i.e.promotional energy.

This model explains the quantum leap.

In an atom the exterior of the atom is at a higher universal potential energy than the interior. When disturbed by a photon the electron gains universal potential energy (equivalent to the energy of the photon), which is equivalent to a 4th dimensional change in position.Change of position in space is equivalent to an energy change.

This is instantaneous from the 3D vector space perspective. The electron does not move through 3D space to its new position as this would involve kinetic energy, trajectory through 3D space and could not occur faster than light speed.It would also be possible to detect electrons between energy levels if this was the case.

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Dear Georgina,

You have an overflowing imagination and a very important creativity, congratulations.

The human imagination is incredible, even in math, imaginary numbers were invented, complexes.....

I think that extrapolations can be fundamentals only if they are connected or in correlation with the fundamental laws of our Universal sphere in building in Time Space .

I think that certain foundations are universals and we feel quickly if an idea is possible in rationality ,when it is unified and in agreement with the existing systems of logic.

It is important to connect the quantum and the cosmological and this constant time of evolution in connection with the fundamental constants.

I don't imagine for exemple a possibility to go in the past or in the future ,it's impossible,the time travel is pure science fiction.

There is an important point I think, when an idea or a hypothesis is fundamental, it justifies itself at every level of study ,Math ,physic,quantum,cosmol,chemistry,biology,ecology,astronomy,e

volution,philosophy....

About the potential energy ,it's very complex and a relativistic point of vue is essential .Like the universal entropy in all things ,but it's a other story .

We have our limits of pereption ,we shall evolve but we are still young at the universal scale .The energy concept is so complex ,the energy will increase towards the limits ,the walls ,in the quantum world and the cosmological world.

The time is a constant of evolution to optimize ,harmonize,polarize,complexificate,....our system is a physical specific dynamic towards complexification ,and for me spherization with a specific geometry in balance .

You say ..."In an atom the exterior of the atom is at a higher universal potential energy than the interior. When disturbed by a photon the electron gains universal potential energy .

Could you tell me more please about these words .

Regards

Steve

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You have an overflowing imagination and a very important creativity, congratulations.

The human imagination is incredible, even in math, imaginary numbers were invented, complexes.....

I think that extrapolations can be fundamentals only if they are connected or in correlation with the fundamental laws of our Universal sphere in building in Time Space .

I think that certain foundations are universals and we feel quickly if an idea is possible in rationality ,when it is unified and in agreement with the existing systems of logic.

It is important to connect the quantum and the cosmological and this constant time of evolution in connection with the fundamental constants.

I don't imagine for exemple a possibility to go in the past or in the future ,it's impossible,the time travel is pure science fiction.

There is an important point I think, when an idea or a hypothesis is fundamental, it justifies itself at every level of study ,Math ,physic,quantum,cosmol,chemistry,biology,ecology,astronomy,e

volution,philosophy....

About the potential energy ,it's very complex and a relativistic point of vue is essential .Like the universal entropy in all things ,but it's a other story .

We have our limits of pereption ,we shall evolve but we are still young at the universal scale .The energy concept is so complex ,the energy will increase towards the limits ,the walls ,in the quantum world and the cosmological world.

The time is a constant of evolution to optimize ,harmonize,polarize,complexificate,....our system is a physical specific dynamic towards complexification ,and for me spherization with a specific geometry in balance .

You say ..."In an atom the exterior of the atom is at a higher universal potential energy than the interior. When disturbed by a photon the electron gains universal potential energy .

Could you tell me more please about these words .

Regards

Steve

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Steve,

I was just trying to explain the same concept of changing position along the 4th dimension but by talking of the energy change that occurs. The 4th dimension can either be visualised as spatial or as a scale of universal potential energy.It may be helpful to think of that as a sequence of energy levels.(See below) Highest universal potential energy near the outer regions of the 4D Megauniverse and lowest near to the interior of the 4D Megauniverse.

Universal potential energy is converted to mass energy and kinetic energy and this is the driving force for creation of the universe. All macroscopic objects are continuously moving from higher lower universal potential energy

Sub atomic particle are able to move in all 4 dimensions of space according to their energy.If thinking in spatial terms then promotional energy (loss of universal potential energy) is like kinetic energy only the motion is occurring along the 4th dimension.

But I have said all of this before.

Experiments involving high energy or strong electromagnetic magnetic fields will have already affected the energy levels of the sub atomic particle under investigation and thus preselected the behaviour of that particle because of the experimental conditions.

Today i am thinking about sequence. A sculpture garden may have a row of sculptures arranged along a path. This is an arrangement in space. Time does not come into this picture at all until I walk along the row in a certain direction. Then the sculptures are seen in a sequence and can be said to be separated by time as well as space. Where as they were initially just separated by space. Time is thus emergent.

So the 4th dimension is encountered in sequence. This can either be imagined as matter moving through space along a 4th spatial dimension or as a series of energy levels on a scale of universal potential energy, encountered in sequence as universal potential energy decreases. Then time arises as a consequence of the change in spatial position or equivalent change in energy, that allows the 4th dimension to be encountered as a sequence.

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I was just trying to explain the same concept of changing position along the 4th dimension but by talking of the energy change that occurs. The 4th dimension can either be visualised as spatial or as a scale of universal potential energy.It may be helpful to think of that as a sequence of energy levels.(See below) Highest universal potential energy near the outer regions of the 4D Megauniverse and lowest near to the interior of the 4D Megauniverse.

Universal potential energy is converted to mass energy and kinetic energy and this is the driving force for creation of the universe. All macroscopic objects are continuously moving from higher lower universal potential energy

Sub atomic particle are able to move in all 4 dimensions of space according to their energy.If thinking in spatial terms then promotional energy (loss of universal potential energy) is like kinetic energy only the motion is occurring along the 4th dimension.

But I have said all of this before.

Experiments involving high energy or strong electromagnetic magnetic fields will have already affected the energy levels of the sub atomic particle under investigation and thus preselected the behaviour of that particle because of the experimental conditions.

Today i am thinking about sequence. A sculpture garden may have a row of sculptures arranged along a path. This is an arrangement in space. Time does not come into this picture at all until I walk along the row in a certain direction. Then the sculptures are seen in a sequence and can be said to be separated by time as well as space. Where as they were initially just separated by space. Time is thus emergent.

So the 4th dimension is encountered in sequence. This can either be imagined as matter moving through space along a 4th spatial dimension or as a series of energy levels on a scale of universal potential energy, encountered in sequence as universal potential energy decreases. Then time arises as a consequence of the change in spatial position or equivalent change in energy, that allows the 4th dimension to be encountered as a sequence.

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Dear Georgina,

I see the quantum interactions in correlation with a specific spherical fractal and an add of many spherical fields and comportments

,The strong interactions shall increase near these limits and thus the energy too towards the ultim entropy in all thing ,but we have our limits .

The numbers of interactions are numerous towards these limits .

I think that our Universe spherisize itself towards a perfect geometry and balance .The quantum architecture is in correlation with this cosmological future sphere and its billions billions galaxies,stars,planets..... .

A spherical and spheres fractal with these numbers(galaxies,stars.....) and time evolution ,let's imagine thus the numbers of codes and its ultime architecture(quantum/cosmol) .

There are indeed in each ultime particle a specific sequence in its geometry,its codes and its rule .Thus different sequences of interactions and thus different sequences of energy,but so far of us .We can't see the truth but some foundamentals around us can help us to see the different steps before ,in the quantum and in the cosmol.The time and evolution of complexification and spherization ll help to know more and that with relativity .

The number of combinations are very important for each particle .Our Universe is in building ,and the polarization and the complexification are foundamental realities.

The weak and very weak interactions permit this building in Time constant .It's there it's interesting the weak interactions and its polarizations of complexification and evolution .

About Time ,I think all is linked and in complementarity ,the time is a constant of evolution .There is any time without space ,any motion without time ,the space without time doesn't build ,the time without space ,it's the same .Our perception and the relativity are essentials .

The constants are everywhere and are foundamentals .

sincerelly

Steve

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I see the quantum interactions in correlation with a specific spherical fractal and an add of many spherical fields and comportments

,The strong interactions shall increase near these limits and thus the energy too towards the ultim entropy in all thing ,but we have our limits .

The numbers of interactions are numerous towards these limits .

I think that our Universe spherisize itself towards a perfect geometry and balance .The quantum architecture is in correlation with this cosmological future sphere and its billions billions galaxies,stars,planets..... .

A spherical and spheres fractal with these numbers(galaxies,stars.....) and time evolution ,let's imagine thus the numbers of codes and its ultime architecture(quantum/cosmol) .

There are indeed in each ultime particle a specific sequence in its geometry,its codes and its rule .Thus different sequences of interactions and thus different sequences of energy,but so far of us .We can't see the truth but some foundamentals around us can help us to see the different steps before ,in the quantum and in the cosmol.The time and evolution of complexification and spherization ll help to know more and that with relativity .

The number of combinations are very important for each particle .Our Universe is in building ,and the polarization and the complexification are foundamental realities.

The weak and very weak interactions permit this building in Time constant .It's there it's interesting the weak interactions and its polarizations of complexification and evolution .

About Time ,I think all is linked and in complementarity ,the time is a constant of evolution .There is any time without space ,any motion without time ,the space without time doesn't build ,the time without space ,it's the same .Our perception and the relativity are essentials .

The constants are everywhere and are foundamentals .

sincerelly

Steve

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Dear Amrit,

I have some difficulties to understand your point of vue .

I have seen in this thread a discussion with Eckard ,

you say "

Gravity is superluminal phenomena. Speed of gravity propagation is infinite. .. gravity is a non-propagating force that exists between quanta of space

Really it's difficult to admit ,the gravity is so important .When you say the speed of gravity is infinite ???

The gravity and its fantastic universal law F=G m1m2/r²,

we see in this equation the link between mass and an universal constant ,personnally the gravity is not infinite ,there are so many kinds of gravities in correlation with centers ,I think that the gravity is linked with rotation and many kinds of quantum and cosmological architectures ,but not infinite ,furthermore the gravity ,the mass ,the accretion have waves ,the gravity is different than a linear velocity like the speed of light.If some super speeds exist ,it will be in this ultim particle of centers in correlation wiith gravity and quantum and cosmological spherical structure and its motions of rotation ,it's totally different I think .

In fact you speak about the information only I think ,a kind of informations between the math /phys wall ,I think personnally what the code is inside the coded ultim spheres ,the transfer of informations is a physical reality,informations are so complex at this local system ,I imagine personnally a specific spherical fractals and its fields correlated quant/cosmol numbers thus the numbers of combinations of informations and transferts are so numerous but we rest in a physical dynamic and its laws thus with its limits and walls .

Let's imagine now the different perceptible or extrapolate gravities around us .

In my Spherization Theory ,I think our Universe has a center thus first big gravity ,after let's take the super groups and groups of galaxies ,they turn around the center ,thus others centers of gravity ,after let's take the galaxies after the stars and after our planets ,we can see some diffrent gravity fields ,thus in correlation with a specific gravity of centers ,now let's imagine too the quantum gravity ,it's the same logic with relativity ,thus many kinds of gravity and fields ....we can resume that very simply ,mass rotation gravity energy building spherization ....with our walls .

What do you think ?

sincerelly

Steve

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I have some difficulties to understand your point of vue .

I have seen in this thread a discussion with Eckard ,

you say "

Gravity is superluminal phenomena. Speed of gravity propagation is infinite. .. gravity is a non-propagating force that exists between quanta of space

Really it's difficult to admit ,the gravity is so important .When you say the speed of gravity is infinite ???

The gravity and its fantastic universal law F=G m1m2/r²,

we see in this equation the link between mass and an universal constant ,personnally the gravity is not infinite ,there are so many kinds of gravities in correlation with centers ,I think that the gravity is linked with rotation and many kinds of quantum and cosmological architectures ,but not infinite ,furthermore the gravity ,the mass ,the accretion have waves ,the gravity is different than a linear velocity like the speed of light.If some super speeds exist ,it will be in this ultim particle of centers in correlation wiith gravity and quantum and cosmological spherical structure and its motions of rotation ,it's totally different I think .

In fact you speak about the information only I think ,a kind of informations between the math /phys wall ,I think personnally what the code is inside the coded ultim spheres ,the transfer of informations is a physical reality,informations are so complex at this local system ,I imagine personnally a specific spherical fractals and its fields correlated quant/cosmol numbers thus the numbers of combinations of informations and transferts are so numerous but we rest in a physical dynamic and its laws thus with its limits and walls .

Let's imagine now the different perceptible or extrapolate gravities around us .

In my Spherization Theory ,I think our Universe has a center thus first big gravity ,after let's take the super groups and groups of galaxies ,they turn around the center ,thus others centers of gravity ,after let's take the galaxies after the stars and after our planets ,we can see some diffrent gravity fields ,thus in correlation with a specific gravity of centers ,now let's imagine too the quantum gravity ,it's the same logic with relativity ,thus many kinds of gravity and fields ....we can resume that very simply ,mass rotation gravity energy building spherization ....with our walls .

What do you think ?

sincerelly

Steve

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