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Anonymous wrote on Mar. 31, 2022 @ 16:17 GMT
It's becoming clear that with all the brain and consciousness theories out there, the proof will be in the pudding. By this I mean, can any particular theory be used to create a human adult level conscious machine. My bet is on the late Gerald Edelman's Extended Theory of Neuronal Group Selection. The lead group in robotics based on this theory is the Neurorobotics Lab at UC at Irvine. Dr....
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It's becoming clear that with all the brain and consciousness theories out there, the proof will be in the pudding. By this I mean, can any particular theory be used to create a human adult level conscious machine. My bet is on the late Gerald Edelman's Extended Theory of Neuronal Group Selection. The lead group in robotics based on this theory is the Neurorobotics Lab at UC at Irvine. Dr. Edelman distinguished between primary consciousness, which came first in evolution, and that humans share with other conscious animals, and higher order consciousness, which came to only humans with the acquisition of language. A machine with primary consciousness will probably have to come first.
The thing I find special about the TNGS is the Darwin series of automata created at the Neurosciences Institute by Dr. Edelman and his colleagues in the 1990's and 2000's. These machines perform in the real world, not in a restricted simulated world, and display convincing physical behavior indicative of higher psychological functions necessary for consciousness, such as perceptual categorization, memory, and learning. They are based on realistic models of the parts of the biological brain that the theory claims subserve these functions. The extended TNGS allows for the emergence of consciousness based only on further evolutionary development of the brain areas responsible for these functions, in a parsimonious way. No other research I've encountered is anywhere near as convincing.
I post because on almost every video and article about the brain and consciousness that I encounter, the attitude seems to be that we still know next to nothing about how the brain and consciousness work; that there's lots of data but no unifying theory. I believe the extended TNGS is that theory. My motivation is to keep that theory in front of the public. And obviously, I consider it the route to a truly conscious machine, primary and higher-order.
My advice to people who want to create a conscious machine is to seriously ground themselves in the extended TNGS and the Darwin automata first, and proceed from there, by applying to Jeff Krichmar's lab at UC Irvine, possibly. Dr. Edelman's roadmap to a conscious machine is at https://arxiv.org/abs/2105.10461
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Jonathan Mason wrote on Apr. 20, 2022 @ 09:18 GMT
Great article and important research in the field of Mathematical Consciousness Science.
Some useful links:
A wiki explaining what Mathematical Consciousness Science is about is available here
And an updated link to the Models of Consciousness 2022 conference pages are here
It would be wonderful to see greater support for research in this exciting new area in mathematics. One reason why it works so well is because the precise mathematical definitions that the theories/models engender make them much more accessible to scientific scrutiny allowing the modelling cycle to apply. The research Kobi talks about above constitutes a large and important area of possibilities within the wider field which needs to be explored. Excitingly there is no problem to undertake the research, it's easier to do than trying to detect gravitational waves for example, but funding is needed to make it happen; see here.
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Member Jonathan William Mason replied on Apr. 20, 2022 @ 09:36 GMT
The links were striped from the above post, so here they are:
https://wiki.amcs.science/index.php?title=Mathematical_C
onsciousness_Science
https://amcs-community.org/events/moc-3-
2022/
https://omcan.web.ox.ac.uk/new-centre-mathematical-appr
oaches-consciousness-oxford
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Steve Dufourny replied on Apr. 20, 2022 @ 18:17 GMT
Hello Mr Mason,
I have look at these ideas, it is very relevant. His works and ideas are fascinating, I have some ideas too correlated with my humble general theory. I am going to see more about these ideas on their university , this consciousness and the ranking of orders seems the key more the philosophical origin too of this universe, the works of Penrose and Hameroff with the protoconsciousness too is fascinating and the microtubules and the theory of informations, best regards,thanks to have shared this
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Steve Dufourny replied on Apr. 22, 2022 @ 17:18 GMT
I read more about this Dr Edelman , he was famous, it is sad he is dead, hope the team at the UC continues his wonderful ideas. We need persons like him to better understand the brains and this consciousnmess, the secret for me is to unify all sciences and the maths too more the philosophy of origin, it is what I have mad in my model about this consciousness , Penrose too has good ideas with Hameroff and Rovelli too. I try to link all this with my theory and the spheres more the philosophy of this infinite eternal cosnciousness in 0D. There are explainations rational but several limitations still unfortuanlly exist.
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Steve Dufourny replied on Apr. 22, 2022 @ 17:36 GMT
I am fascinated by his works Mr Mason about the propagating waves in the brain and the different orders.
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Ulla Marianne Mattfolk wrote on Apr. 22, 2022 @ 18:45 GMT
This is a very interesting work too, shows some non-locality Posner-molecules should work with entanglement. I imagine it can be like Edelmanns reentrant loops.
https://www.projekte.hu-berlin.de/en/larkum/research/l
arkum_tins_2013
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Ulla Marianne Mattfolk replied on Apr. 22, 2022 @ 18:51 GMT
If we imagine evolution has done a rotation of the brain areas so as instance the language could evolve, so probably also with other abilities. The surprising here is that the functions also change, so a rodent relies more on Ca-waves, higher animals use more phosphor and its entanglement, so the entanglement also contain some kind of short memory-effect?
Also in evolution we add, we don't take away. What we add must be discreateness?
Edelmann was once one of my big inspirations.
Ulla.
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Ulla Marianne Mattfolk replied on Apr. 22, 2022 @ 19:25 GMT
https://brainworldmagazine.com/its-alive-what-sentient-netwo
rks-tell-us-about-human-consciousness/
the comment in the post is from this?
Ulla.
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Steve Dufourny replied on Apr. 22, 2022 @ 19:49 GMT
Hi Ulla, happy to see you on FQXi, I knew that you d like this blog, he is very relevant indeed this thinker the Dr Edelman, I read several works from him and more I read them, more I am facinated. This consciousness, the brains, the microtubules,the protoconsciousness, the different orders of consciousess, the propagating waves, the inmformations, the memoryt, the links with the DNA, my humble ideas too with the motions rortations of spheres and oscillations more the deformations of spheres , tere is something to analyse deeper aboutr these motions, rotations of spherical volumes and the links with the creations of biological systems due to DNA and the transferts of informations. The memory too seems impotrnmat correlated with the motions of spherical partilces and their complexity more the stabilities of informations considering the volumes and motions.
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Nicholas Hosein wrote on Apr. 22, 2022 @ 20:05 GMT
[QUOTE="wellwisher, post: 7655541, member: 64918"]Consciousness can be explained with basic principles of science that do not require extra dimensions.[/quote]
The hard problem requires at least four dimensions. Prepare to be amazed by something I wrote in the meditative state of the high.
The higher dimension contains the separation, effecting the non-separation
It goes on further, but that is all I can remember right now. I wrote that in 2007 at the age of 24.
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Steve Dufourny replied on Apr. 22, 2022 @ 20:11 GMT
Hi Mr Hossein, I agree totally this consciousness does not extradimensions and I believe strongly too that our physics don t need extradiemnsions , the strings and geometrical algebras have created consfusions and we could return at this old school with the pure newtonian motions rotations oscillations of particles.
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Steve Dufourny replied on Apr. 22, 2022 @ 20:12 GMT
Could you tell us more about your model and this 4D please
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Steve Dufourny replied on Apr. 22, 2022 @ 20:14 GMT
higher dimensions are not necessary and the 4D can be just quaternions for the changes ands time that we have invented for the duration. And the geomtrical algebras instead to create extradimensions or like in the strings 10D, 11D or 26D, we can just consider a pre 3D at all scales and just fractalisations of this 3D to reach the unknowns, and this 4D for the motions and changes simply with a kind of time wich is not a real dimension but just a parameter for the motions of this 3D.
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Thomas Howard Ray replied on May. 12, 2022 @ 21:05 GMT
Nicholas,
Indeed. This sums up pretty much what I had in mind when I showed that the 3-dimension limit is equal to the 4-dimension horizon.
research paper I don't agree with the non-separability of 3 dimensions, though. Obviously, 3 dimensions decomposes into (2,1).
Your idea can be easily corrected, though -- 3 dimensions decompose into 2, which gives us the complex plane, the structure for 2-dimension analysis, and including the real line (1 dimension). Is 1 dimension real analysis strong enough to project a 4-D boundary?
Stay tuned.
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Anonymous wrote on Apr. 29, 2022 @ 17:59 GMT
HIGHER DIMENSIONS ARE NECESSARY READ IT AGAIN YOUR STATEMENT IS BASED ON IGNORANCE!!!
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Steve Dufourny replied on Apr. 29, 2022 @ 20:13 GMT
Maybe it is better to make an other passion than trying to explain the hard problem of consciousness, it is probably due to an euphory spititual still, you are elected of god maybe too, I read your posts it is total non sense,Higher dimensions are notr necessary, on the other side we fractalise our pure 3D, still one thinking god gives him answers in synchros of fields in his pseudo dimension, make an other passion really. you develop nothing, you just put the same and the same still ironical posts, I insist still a religious mixing sciences and religions and a syndrom of elected, and after what , a lesson about the universal altruistic love too , yes of course, amin
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Steve Dufourny replied on Apr. 29, 2022 @ 20:17 GMT
require at least 4 dimensions, lol the fourth dimension is just a dimension of time for the quaternions for the motions and chanmges, and what are the others lol , a dimension of fields of God synchronised in your brain with deepe meditations too and strings in synchros , for your informations, the strings and the 10d, 11d or 26 D are just mathematical extrapolations to find unknowns, it is not real extradimensions, so indeed stop to tell euphoric spiritual affirmations, you have proved nothing about the consciousness, read the works or rovelli, penrose,hameroff and edelman , after maybe you could be more rational because there frankly , in telling these things on this platform, it is ironical, it is not facebook or linkedin, on this, work your own consciousness and try to be rational and deterministic instead to affirm assumptions
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Nicholas hosein wrote on Apr. 29, 2022 @ 18:07 GMT
By combining the opposition between internal and external existence the flaws in both worlds become neutralized.
This is the role of consciousness.
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Steve Dufourny replied on Apr. 29, 2022 @ 20:19 GMT
lol and what are the internal and external existences neutralised , yes this is the role of assumptions....
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Steve Dufourny replied on Apr. 29, 2022 @ 20:41 GMT
If you developped for example a model where the neuronal space and cognitive space are under wavefunctions and transferts of informations and that a kind of complexity appears due to the informations interacting and where the rule of microtubules are taken into acoount more a kind of link with the works of penrose where the protoconsciousnmess is a reality and that there is a kind of cloud about all this sphere of informations interacting ,that could be relevant but no you conme with 2 lines in telling nothing.It is there that the works of penrose and edelman are relevant for the orchestrated objective reduction and in my model we couls consider the motions of spherical volumes and a kind too of 0D of consciousness from a kind of infinite etrnal consciousness, but we are linited still about the real cause of this hard problem of consciousness. The philosophy and sociaology and evolution too seem essential like the dna and the encoding of informations in a kind of spacevaccuum possessing the main codes, but we cannot reach these main codes actually. The electromagnetic waves are important but are not sufficient, that is why we must differenciate the intelligence and the consciousness even with a complexity of informations electromagnetically speaking, So your extradiemnsions and this spiritual euphory , no thanks
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Nicholas hosein wrote on May. 7, 2022 @ 17:10 GMT
Please ignore the crank. My responses are nothing short of revolutionary.
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Steve Dufourny replied on May. 7, 2022 @ 19:43 GMT
develop because we see nothing there , you wrote this in 2007 but we see no development of the ideas, try to be concrete , we are not on facebook, you tell nothing, you develop nothing, nor in physics, nor in maths, nor in philosophy, we don t know what you tell, we don t know if you have a general model, or a general theory, you tell just some words without real menaing , sorry but it is true
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Thomas Howard Ray wrote on May. 12, 2022 @ 21:37 GMT
Kobi,
You write as if information accumulates like physical grains of sand that form an Avalanche model (Per Bak). I beg to be corrected on this.
Can you reconcile your model with a model of quantum mechanics that doesn't collapse (Everett, e.g.)?
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