In my view time does not exist as a real thing or force. Instead, we have periods of duration elapsing. Our clocks do not measure time passing, they measure duration elapsing.
We assume that time exists as a real thing or force, because we evolved on this swiftly rotating planet. The ceaseless, overwhelming, daily cyclical effects of our rotational motion has conditioned our cognitive grasp of the nature of time. We do not consciously perceive time passing, we consciously perceive duration elapsing.
You ask, "Is time a product of consciousness and motion?" Yes!
Steve Dufourny replied on Jul. 16, 2021 @ 15:23 GMT
mathematically from an accident or spititually I would say
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Jim George Snowdon replied on Jul. 16, 2021 @ 16:26 GMT
Hi Steve,
According to the Oxford English Dictionary, parameter means "a numerical or other measurable factor forming one of a set that defines a system or sets the conditions for it`s operations." How are you meaning parameter?
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Steve Dufourny replied on Jul. 16, 2021 @ 17:03 GMT
It is always a parameter independant of evolution, no need of dictionary to understand that this time is a parameter
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Jim George Snowdon replied on Jul. 16, 2021 @ 17:33 GMT
Hi Steve,
Does the time parameter compel all motions in the Universe? If so, how would that operate?
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Steve Dufourny replied on Jul. 16, 2021 @ 19:42 GMT
Hi Jim, this time seems purelly correlated with the motions, and the confusions about it for me is due to the philosophy and the relativity and this spacetime that we observe, but this time is probably absolute for the rotating spheres and in the motions. I see it like a measurement simply,a foundamental quantity , a scalar in classical physics. A rhing important is its irreversibility like all experiments in themro prove it. We can consider the works of einstein and newton, and einstein is for observations at high velocities of the spacetime. Newton is for a kind of universal clock linear if my memory is correct. For the quantum mechanics, you can analyse the equations of schrodinger where the parameter time is considered. All these works consider the evolution and an irreversibility. This time exists like a measurable quantity because it is correlated with the motions.
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Jim George Snowdon replied on Jul. 16, 2021 @ 20:14 GMT
I agree that time is "like a measurement simply,". In my view, time is only a measurement system that measures durations elapsing, and that`s all it is, simply a measurement system.
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Jim George Snowdon replied on Jul. 16, 2021 @ 20:31 GMT
Steve,
Earlier you said, "this thing (time) exists like a parameter, without time, you don`t exist,". I do not understand that Steve. That sounds like more than "like a measurement simply,", if I wouldn`t exist without it?
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Steve Dufourny replied on Jul. 17, 2021 @ 09:47 GMT
Hi Jim, I just say that it is an important parameter because without time, we have no motion and if we have no motion so we have no physics and without physics so we don t exist
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Jim George Snowdon replied on Jul. 17, 2021 @ 12:23 GMT
Good Morning Steve,
The FQXi contest on the nature of time, established that there was no proof that time exists as a real thing in reality, at least as of 2008 when the contest occurred. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that motions in our Universe, prove that time does exist. That time must exist because we have motion. Perhaps I misunderstand you?
What does time, the real thing, actually do then? How can time do what it apparently does, everywhere in the Universe, all of the time?
Why do you assume that time exists when there is no proof?
An assumption is not a proof.
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Steve Dufourny replied on Jul. 17, 2021 @ 13:08 GMT
There is no proof that the time does not exist and we have more evidences that this time exists, because it is measurable, if it didn t exist, we could not measure it like a scalar quantity, like the mass, the lenght, the charge.... when a thing is measured, it exists and all our equations in quantum mechanics, thermodynamics, cosmology ...consider this time. So I don t know why you consider that it does not exist, but it exists, the evolution is a reality . And the motions , rotations...are essential and are a reality. So give a proof that it does not exist, and if it correct with the maths and in having changed all the euqations in physics considering this time, I will agree, but at this moment , a moment in time, I cannot lol, to you my friend
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Jim George Snowdon replied on Jul. 17, 2021 @ 14:07 GMT
How could we be able to prove that time, as a real thing or force, does not exist. Proving that a thing that does not exist, does not exist, is not possible. Assuming that a thing exists, when it does not exist, can create confusions.
For instance, in my understanding, there is no proof that extra dimensions exist. Extra dimensions are only assumptions.
What does exist is motion. I think we agree that motion does exist in our Universe?
We measure motions by measuring durations elapsing, with our clocks. That does not prove that we are actually measuring a real thing called time. We are simply measuring durations elapsing.
Yes, evolution has happened, but evolution only needs motion to occur. Why would evolution need some thing called time to be able to happen? Why would motion not be sufficient in order for evolution to occur?
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Steve Dufourny replied on Jul. 17, 2021 @ 14:39 GMT
Yes the extradimensions are assumptions, they are just mathematical plays due to the geometrical algebras and the strings. And I agree that the motions indeed exist , and this time is correlated . What is maybe important is to consider the evolution and the evolution is cconsidered with the time. When we have considered the time , the first humans conscious have seen that a yesterday was different tna a tomorrow and they have considered the rotations of the earth and around the sun. We have after this invented the seconds , the minutes, the hours, the months , the years, and the past, the present and the future are realities. And in our physics, this time permit to measure and calculate the motions, interactions, .... when you tell that this time does not exist, I understand because it is just a quantity that we measure and we cannot touch it like the other measurable scalar quantities, but it exists in the sense that it permits to measure and is measurable. We must recognise that we have a past , that we born , live and die and there is a time life . I d like to have your philosophy about what you tell if you are ok, what is the improtance of what you tell us about this time, what is the relevances for our physics that we measure ? regards
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Jim George Snowdon replied on Jul. 17, 2021 @ 20:00 GMT
Take dinosaur bones. It`s possible to see, possibly to touch, dinosaur bones. Many millions of years, and those bones are still here with us in the present. They are evidence. The bones have not left the present.
There are no co-existing past(s) in some other places. The remnants of all events are still here with us in the present.
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Steve Dufourny replied on Jul. 18, 2021 @ 17:57 GMT
Hi Jim, I was in geology at university, so indeed we have bones lol, they are proofs of a past and the bones are under the laws of resistance of matters and others. The past has existed and the proofs that we find in the present permit to understand the evolution and the diversity of the biology. The geology is a very good sciences to encircle the time and the evolution I must say. There is a clock of evolution universal irreversible entropical.
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Jim George Snowdon replied on Jul. 18, 2021 @ 18:26 GMT
Hi Steve,
FQXi`s first essay contest was about the nature of time, there were 137 essays. They are available on FQXi.
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Steve Dufourny replied on Jul. 18, 2021 @ 18:53 GMT
yes I know but that does not change that this time exists. It is an important parameter for the evolution at all scales. We utilise thie time like a thing measurable permitting to measure with equations mechanisms simply. There is nothing of odd with this time, even the GR and SR are tools where the time is considered.The nature of time is simply a parameter inside a physicality in 3D and if you consider the quaternions and the motions, it is important for these motions and so the mechanisms. If you tell that it does not exist for example , so how are you going to consider this evolution and how are you going to measure steps of these mechanisms , but the motions at the present can be different just a moment after, see the accelerations for example and the velocities changing. Without time, you have no changes.
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Jim George Snowdon replied on Jul. 18, 2021 @ 19:33 GMT
What makes you think time is any different than extra dimensions? Is time just another convenient assumption?
Why would matter need some kind of `time parameter` to move? How would that work with all matter?
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Steve Dufourny replied on Jul. 18, 2021 @ 20:19 GMT
why many equations foundamental in physics consider this time ? the extradiemnsions are not the same , the quaternions have a dimension of time but it is just a tool for the motions and changes.
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Jim George Snowdon replied on Sep. 14, 2021 @ 15:24 GMT
Hi Steve,
Why do many fundamental equations in Physics consider this time?
A good question.
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Steve Dufourny replied on Sep. 14, 2021 @ 15:46 GMT
Hi Jim, it is a measurement for me in physics considering clocks , it is a scalar utilised in the geometrical algebras simply.In my model and with the spherical topological geometrical algebras I consider it like correlated with the motions, rotations. I see it irreversible considering the evolution on its arrow of time. Without this scalar , we have no motions, no evolution and so we don t exist simply. I consider this time also in the general realtivity and special correlated with observations and where we must relativate it. That depends how we interpret it considering the maths of the SR and GRbut there is like an irreversible general entropical arrow of time . Friendly
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Jim George Snowdon replied on Sep. 16, 2021 @ 12:37 GMT
Hi Steve,
Clearly we have motion in our Universe. It is not clear that we have time.
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Steve Dufourny replied on Sep. 16, 2021 @ 18:22 GMT
Hello Jim, yes indeed in a sense we have these motions and we have invented an intepretation of this time, a kind of clock to measure and that permits also to have the past, present and future, but it is a scalar different than the others in fact.
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Jim George Snowdon replied on Sep. 17, 2021 @ 12:44 GMT
What about the dinosaur bones Steve? They are still here with us in the present.
The remnants of all events are still here with us in the present.
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Steve Dufourny replied on Sep. 17, 2021 @ 13:04 GMT
They have a life time these dinosaurs like us, I have ranked the evolution and I was in geology at university, the time is a kind of parameter taken into account in geology and archeology, the carbon 14 permits to rank even, the dinosaurs have been numerous on different periods, not only the jurassic, it is ranked in millions of years, and the time is a tool . The bones have an age and the time permits to explain the evolution and the ranking of animals and vegetals. Without this time, we cannot understand the evolution. It exists in a sense this time even if we cannot touch it like the matters or others. It is a scalar, it is a parameter, a tool. You have a life time, you born and you live and you die , your age is a reality, you have a past, a present and a futur.
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Steve Dufourny replied on Sep. 17, 2021 @ 13:05 GMT
duration or time, or clocks, they are linked and under an universal clock.....
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Jim George Snowdon replied on Sep. 17, 2021 @ 13:39 GMT
What do you mean by universal clock?
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Steve Dufourny replied on Sep. 17, 2021 @ 14:20 GMT
a general universal clock of evolution irreversible correlated for me with the rotations and motions, and mainly the 3D spheres
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Jim George Snowdon replied on Sep. 17, 2021 @ 14:43 GMT
Since evolving on our rapidly rotating planet, we have used it`s rotational motion for our universal clock. At 1,700 kilometers per hour at the equator, it`s constant speed provides us with the measurement baseline, from which we measure durations elapsing.
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Jim George Snowdon replied on Sep. 23, 2021 @ 12:52 GMT
Hi Steve,
What do you assume time, the universal clock, is made of?
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Steve Dufourny replied on Sep. 23, 2021 @ 13:49 GMT
Hi Jim, the time is a parameter that we have invented, it is just a tool, nothing of odd, without time due to the motions, we have no reality, no meaning, no evolution, it is simply a tool that we utilise in measuring , it exists in a sense that we utilise it withy measures and clocks, if you tell that it does not exist, that will not change the fact that we measure it at all scales , quantu, or cosmological. What is the relevance to tell that it does not exist, what can you change in the equations of physics for example ?
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Jim George Snowdon replied on Sep. 23, 2021 @ 14:19 GMT
Hi Steve,
Are you suggesting that motion creates time?
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Steve Dufourny replied on Sep. 23, 2021 @ 15:08 GMT
In a simplistic analyse , yes the time is an tool that we have invented correlated with the motions and the evolution. That permits to mesure with the seconds that we have invented, a duration and so we can measure. We can too extrapolate the past and the future.
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Jim George Snowdon replied on Sep. 23, 2021 @ 15:28 GMT
Is that a yes, to motion creating time, Steve?
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Steve Dufourny replied on Sep. 23, 2021 @ 15:53 GMT
yes I see like this, the motions create this time and we have created systems to measure it on a kind of irreversible entropical universal arrow of time.
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Jim George Snowdon replied on Sep. 23, 2021 @ 16:22 GMT
How does motion create time?
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Steve Dufourny replied on Sep. 23, 2021 @ 18:24 GMT
I see this very simply you know. The motions rotations permit the changes, variables, and the evolution ,and interactions of exchanges, so implying a duration, we have chosen the second being the periods of the cesium and we have correlated with the hours and days and this and that . That is why we have the past , present and future and after in the general relativity it is a tool to rank the cosmology too because we see our past more we go in far in space like we see our sun More than 8 min after simply
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Jim George Snowdon replied on Sep. 24, 2021 @ 11:49 GMT
Hi Steve,
When light leaves the Sun, it does so in the present. It travels to Earth in the present, and arrives in the present.
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Steve Dufourny replied on Sep. 24, 2021 @ 18:34 GMT
Hi Jim, yes it is in the present, the present is important, we exist in this present but this evolution and time permits the changes and variables, the sun was not the same 3 min before or will be not the same 3 min after , it is just a tool you know this time correlated with the motions and the changes.
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Jim George Snowdon replied on Sep. 25, 2021 @ 12:01 GMT
Hi Steve,
In my view, we have only the present. There is no past, there is only the present.
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Steve Dufourny replied on Sep. 25, 2021 @ 12:35 GMT
Yes indeed the present seems the only one thing where we can insteract , that said this past has existed and that permits to understand the evolution. If the past had not existed, we d be not there, the past has existed. Yesterdy for example you were a reality .
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Jim George Snowdon replied on Sep. 25, 2021 @ 13:05 GMT
If the Earth did not have it`s rotational motion, the apparent time of day would be permanent at any particular location on Earth. I might live at a place where Sunset was permanent. If that were so, I would have to travel to see the permanent Sunrise.
The speed of the Earth`s rotational motion is 1,700 kilometers per hour at the Equator. We see the constant effects of the rotational motion all around us constantly.
Of course we believe time is a real thing. It`s real enough for us.
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Jim George Snowdon replied on Sep. 29, 2021 @ 13:45 GMT
Hi Steve,
The Earth`s rotational motion is the fundamental physical mechanism causing our confusion about the nature of time.
Our Dinosaur bone evidence tells us there is no past somewhere. There is only the present.
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Steve Dufourny replied on Sep. 29, 2021 @ 20:03 GMT
Hello Jim, I am understanding what you mean, I can agree that only this present exists indeed . Friendly
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Jim George Snowdon replied on Oct. 15, 2021 @ 13:47 GMT
When we sleep we don`t know what time it is. As we awaken, we check the time. We check with our clocks, which are measuring duration elapsing.
For the rest of the day, we see the correspondence between our clocks and the world`s turning.
If the world did not turn, the apparent time of day would not change. The Sun would stay in the same position in the sky all of the time.
Under that condition, people would be less inclined to believe that time, a real thing, existed. They would be more inclined to believe that time, a real thing, did not exist.
The Earth`s rotational motion is the fundamental physical mechanism causing our confusion about the nature of time.
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Jim George Snowdon replied on Oct. 16, 2021 @ 12:29 GMT
Had we evolved on the dark side of the Moon, we would not see the Earth. Under that condition, we would not assume that time existed as some kind of real thing, presence, or force.
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Jim George Snowdon replied on Oct. 16, 2021 @ 21:43 GMT
Excuse me, my previous post is in error.
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Jim George Snowdon replied on Oct. 18, 2021 @ 12:25 GMT
The constant, relentless, rotational motion of Earth, coupled with the nature of consciousness, produces our experience of duration elapsing.
We consciously experience the state of time not existing. We consciously experience the state of nothing.
Motion does not create time.
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Jim George Snowdon replied on Oct. 18, 2021 @ 12:39 GMT
I imagine a large number of people believe that time does not exist as some kind of thing, presence, or force in reality. Given that, the question is why do the rest of the people believe that time does exist as some kind of real thing?
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Jim George Snowdon replied on Oct. 22, 2021 @ 11:21 GMT
If we found the magic switch and turned the Earth`s rotational speed to alternating between normal and slow, we would find it difficult to believe our clocks telling us that time wasn`t also alternating.
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Jim George Snowdon replied on Oct. 22, 2021 @ 13:39 GMT
If the Earth did not have it`s rotational motion, people on the dark side of the planet would always see the stars.
The stars would slowly move across the sky as the Earth moved around the Sun.
If it was always dark? If the stars moved glacially across the sky? If you spent your life in the darkness, would you believe time existed as some kind of thing, presence, or force?
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Jim George Snowdon replied on Oct. 24, 2021 @ 13:48 GMT
People on the sunny side, would always see the Sun in the same place in the sky.
If it was always light? If the Sun did not move across the sky? If you spent your life in the light, would you believe that time existed as some kind of thing, presence, or force?
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Steve Dufourny replied on Oct. 26, 2021 @ 12:30 GMT
Hi Jim, I understand what you tell us. This time is a parameter different than the others, I think that we have just correlated it with the motions and so we have invented a kind of duration because the evolution seems essential. The GR of einstein has considered this spacetime made of photons and so it is just a tool permitting to still rank the volution , that permits to rank the observable cosmology because we see a relativistic past and so that permits to rank the motions of cosmological spheres. This time in fact like you tell does not really exist, there is no particles in logic correlated with it, that said it is a paramter that we have invencted and the motions and the evolution them exist. The changes and variables are important due to these motions, because without motions, we have no change , and without change we don t exist in fact. Regards
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Jim George Snowdon replied on Nov. 2, 2021 @ 12:55 GMT
Hi Steve,
I am not sure what you mean.
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Steve Dufourny replied on Nov. 2, 2021 @ 13:17 GMT
Hi Jim, it is not complicated, learn more about the quaternions and the general relativity and the evolution, you shall see clearer about this time, a paramter than we have invencted correlated with the motions and the duration, so yes it exists this time in a sense . Regards
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Jim George Snowdon replied on Nov. 2, 2021 @ 13:33 GMT
It is complicated Steve. That`s why FQXi held their first essay question on the nature of time, in 2,008.
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Steve Dufourny replied on Nov. 2, 2021 @ 14:23 GMT
that depends how you consider it, if you want to complexify it with the general relativity or contradictions of its irreversibility, so the people searches problems where they don t exist, there is nothing for me of odd with this time, it is a property emergent due to the motions of particles and creations of this universe, if persons want to search odd things, it is their choice, if they want to interpret it with their own philosophy , it is their choice, for me there is nothing of odd with this time correlated with the motions and the evolution like a duration and its irreversibility.
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Jim George Snowdon replied on Nov. 3, 2021 @ 10:22 GMT
Hi Steve,
I do not know what you mean by " property emergent "? You say, " it is a property emergent due to the motions of particles and creations of this universe,".
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Steve Dufourny replied on Nov. 3, 2021 @ 11:06 GMT
Hi Jim, so I cannot help if you don t understand that we have motions for the particles and the reality and that we have a duration and that the seonds or others are tools to see the evolution or interactions of these motions, yesterday was yesterday, and tomorrow will be tommorrow, the time is a thing invented by the humans permitting to measure these motions and alos to observe the universe and rank, there is nothing of odd.If you want to convice us that this time does not exist , so prove us and develop the correlated philosophy, because there it is us who does not really underatand what you want to tell us .
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Jim George Snowdon replied on Nov. 3, 2021 @ 11:41 GMT
How could I prove that time does not exist as some kind of thing, presence, or force, if it does not exist?
Should it not be your part to explain how time does exist?
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Steve Dufourny replied on Nov. 3, 2021 @ 13:27 GMT
you affirm a thing, so you must tell why, In telling that this time does not exist, it is the same to tell that the seconds or minutes or years and the fact that we born and die don t exist too. Are you conscious of this ? that without time, you cannot be born and you don t die ? if you want to explain the important parameters due to wwhat you affirm, tell us please because frankly I dont really understand what you want to tell with this,
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Jim George Snowdon replied on Nov. 4, 2021 @ 11:19 GMT
Hi Steve,
I am saying that time does not exist as a thing, presence, or force. I am saying that the Earth`s rotational motion is the fundamental physical mechanism causing our confusion about the nature of time.
We use the Earth`s rotational motion as the measurement baseline for our time measurement system. We use the physical rotation to divide up the elapsing duration.
Our conscious minds experience duration elapsing as time passing. We use the conceptual frameworks of past and future as conscious reference points.
We don`t have time. We have motion.
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Steve Dufourny replied on Nov. 5, 2021 @ 17:08 GMT
Hi Jim, yes I have understood what you mean. But if I can, can you accept that the seconds or minutes or days or years are parameters permitting to understand these motions and implying a duration and permit too to understand the interactions of particles?
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Jim George Snowdon replied on Nov. 5, 2021 @ 17:50 GMT
Yes that sounds fine by me Steve.
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Jim George Snowdon replied on Nov. 11, 2021 @ 12:13 GMT
The rotational surface speed of London is about 1,044 kilometers per hour.
Beijing is about 1,286. Los Angeles about 1,389. Moscow about 944. Montreal 1,175.
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Jim George Snowdon replied on Nov. 15, 2021 @ 11:48 GMT
The Earth`s rotational speed in Tokyo is about 1,370 kilometers per hour.
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Jim George Snowdon replied on Nov. 24, 2021 @ 10:41 GMT
In Alice Springs it`s 1530 kilometers per hour.
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Jim George Snowdon replied on Nov. 25, 2021 @ 11:55 GMT
If our planet did not rotate, we would have a sunny side and a dark side of the Earth.
On the dark side, we would know what we looked like, but not have much idea what lay beyond the lamp`s light. We would not know what the Sun looked like until we travelled to the bright side of Earth.
On the bright side, we would not know what a beautiful star filled sky looked like. We would not know what the Moon looked like.
We would need to carry our phones to be able to check what time it was?
There would not be much credence given to the idea that time existed as a real thing, presence, or force.
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Jim George Snowdon replied on Dec. 8, 2021 @ 19:03 GMT
The rotational speed of the Moon is about 390 kilometers per hour.
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Jim George Snowdon replied on Jan. 13, 2022 @ 12:58 GMT
If the rotational motion of the moon is 370km per hour, and the rotational speed of the earth is 1700 kilometers per hour, then the wildly differing environments would produce a complete change to our conscious interpretation of time passing.
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Jim George Snowdon replied on Jan. 13, 2022 @ 13:24 GMT
Had we evolved on a swiftly rotating planet like the Earth, our experiencing of the planetary experience would be entirely a different barrel of fish than had we evolved on the moon!
The moon experience would make the difference clear between the two.
Beautiful sunrises, compared to motionless black Stars forever?
It's easy to see why Earthlings believe in time, and Moonites do not.
Steve, if you were a Moonite, do you think you would?
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