If you are aware of an interesting new academic paper (that has been published in a peer-reviewed journal or has appeared on the arXiv), a conference talk (at an official professional scientific meeting), an external blog post (by a professional scientist) or a news item (in the mainstream news media), which you think might make an interesting topic for an FQXi blog post, then please contact us at forums@fqxi.org with a link to the original source and a sentence about why you think that the work is worthy of discussion. Please note that we receive many such suggestions and while we endeavour to respond to them, we may not be able to reply to all suggestions.

Please also note that we do not accept unsolicited posts and we cannot review, or open new threads for, unsolicited articles or papers. Requests to review or post such materials will not be answered. If you have your own novel physics theory or model, which you would like to post for further discussion among then FQXi community, then please add them directly to the "Alternative Models of Reality" thread, or to the "Alternative Models of Cosmology" thread. Thank you.

Please also note that we do not accept unsolicited posts and we cannot review, or open new threads for, unsolicited articles or papers. Requests to review or post such materials will not be answered. If you have your own novel physics theory or model, which you would like to post for further discussion among then FQXi community, then please add them directly to the "Alternative Models of Reality" thread, or to the "Alternative Models of Cosmology" thread. Thank you.

Contests Home

Current Essay Contest

Previous Contests

**Undecidability, Uncomputability, and Unpredictability Essay Contest**

*December 24, 2019 - April 24, 2020*

Contest Partners: Fetzer Franklin Fund, and The Peter and Patricia Gruber Foundation

read/discuss • winners

**What Is “Fundamental”**

*October 28, 2017 to January 22, 2018*

*Sponsored by the Fetzer Franklin Fund and The Peter & Patricia Gruber Foundation*

read/discuss • winners

**Wandering Towards a Goal**

How can mindless mathematical laws give rise to aims and intention?

*December 2, 2016 to March 3, 2017*

Contest Partner: The Peter and Patricia Gruber Fund.

read/discuss • winners

**Trick or Truth: The Mysterious Connection Between Physics and Mathematics**

*Contest Partners: Nanotronics Imaging, The Peter and Patricia Gruber Foundation, and The John Templeton Foundation*

Media Partner: Scientific American

read/discuss • winners

**How Should Humanity Steer the Future?**

*January 9, 2014 - August 31, 2014*

*Contest Partners: Jaan Tallinn, The Peter and Patricia Gruber Foundation, The John Templeton Foundation, and Scientific American*

read/discuss • winners

**It From Bit or Bit From It**

*March 25 - June 28, 2013*

*Contest Partners: The Gruber Foundation, J. Templeton Foundation, and Scientific American*

read/discuss • winners

**Questioning the Foundations**

Which of Our Basic Physical Assumptions Are Wrong?

*May 24 - August 31, 2012*

*Contest Partners: The Peter and Patricia Gruber Foundation, SubMeta, and Scientific American*

read/discuss • winners

**Is Reality Digital or Analog?**

*November 2010 - February 2011*

*Contest Partners: The Peter and Patricia Gruber Foundation and Scientific American*

read/discuss • winners

**What's Ultimately Possible in Physics?**

*May - October 2009*

*Contest Partners: Astrid and Bruce McWilliams*

read/discuss • winners

**The Nature of Time**

*August - December 2008*

read/discuss • winners

Current Essay Contest

Previous Contests

Contest Partners: Fetzer Franklin Fund, and The Peter and Patricia Gruber Foundation

read/discuss • winners

read/discuss • winners

How can mindless mathematical laws give rise to aims and intention?

Contest Partner: The Peter and Patricia Gruber Fund.

read/discuss • winners

Media Partner: Scientific American

read/discuss • winners

read/discuss • winners

read/discuss • winners

Which of Our Basic Physical Assumptions Are Wrong?

read/discuss • winners

read/discuss • winners

read/discuss • winners

read/discuss • winners

Forum Home

Introduction

Terms of Use

RSS feed | RSS help

Introduction

Terms of Use

*Posts by the author are highlighted in orange; posts by FQXi Members are highlighted in blue.*

RSS feed | RSS help

RECENT POSTS IN THIS TOPIC

**Dimi Chakalov**: *on* 12/10/08 at 14:31pm UTC, wrote Dean: RE your reply from Dec. 4, 2008 @ 02:16 GMT: to get the dynamics for...

**Chris Kennedy**: *on* 12/10/08 at 1:01am UTC, wrote Hi Don, Great essay. I must also tell you that I have been a fan of yours...

**Dean Rickles**: *on* 12/4/08 at 2:16am UTC, wrote Dear Dimi, The first premise of you paradox can be denied. Nowhere is it...

**Dean Rickles**: *on* 12/4/08 at 1:58am UTC, wrote Dear Cristi, You make a good point: this passage wasn't very clearly...

**Dimi Chakalov**: *on* 12/4/08 at 1:30am UTC, wrote Dean: May I ask you to help me understand your main idea. You wrote: "...

**Cristi Stoica**: *on* 12/2/08 at 16:24pm UTC, wrote Dear Dr. Rickles, I enjoyed reading your essay, particularly the...

**Dean Rickles**: *on* 12/1/08 at 14:21pm UTC, wrote **Essay Abstract** The `frozen' character of general relativity (and...

RECENT FORUM POSTS

**Foundational Questions Institute, FQXi**: "On the latest edition of the FQXi podcast, quantum physicist Nicole Yunger..."
*in* Quantum Steampunk -- FQXi...

**Zeeya Merali**: "İzzet Sakallı of Eastern Mediterranean University in Northern Cyprus and..."
*in* Fingerprints of...

**Balybin Urievich**: "As for me, teaching the younger generation is one of the main tasks of..."
*in* The Present State of...

**John Cox**: "Okay. In Topology, all points on a sphere are vector positions and..."
*in* The Quantum Identity...

**Vending Ways**: "Vending Ways is a UAE-based leading distributor of Coin Operated Washing..."
*in* MCQST2021 | The universe...

**Steve Dufourny**: "David Bohm developed a method for comcrete dialogues rather than debates..."
*in* Global Collaboration

**Steve Dufourny**: "One of the problems is the difficulty to unite and convice. The majority..."
*in* Global Collaboration

**Thomas Ray**: "Kobi, You write as if information accumulates like physical grains of sand..."
*in* Mathematical Models of...

RECENT ARTICLES

*click titles to read articles*

**The Math of Consciousness: Q&A with Kobi Kremnitzer**

A meditating mathematician is developing a theory of conscious experience to help understand the boundary between the quantum and classical world.

**Can We Feel What It’s Like to Be Quantum?**

Underground experiments in the heart of the Italian mountains are testing the links between consciousness and collapse theories of quantum physics.

**The Thermodynamic Limits of Intelligence: Q&A with David Wolpert**

Calculating the energy needed to acquire and compute information could help explain the (in)efficiency of human brains and guide the search for extra-terrestrial intelligence.

**Gambling Against the Second Law**

Using precision thermometry to make mini heat engines, that might, momentarily, bust through the thermodynamic limit.

**Mind and Machine: What Does It Mean to Be Sentient?**

Using neural networks to test definitions of 'autonomy.'

RECENT FORUM POSTS

RECENT ARTICLES

A meditating mathematician is developing a theory of conscious experience to help understand the boundary between the quantum and classical world.

Underground experiments in the heart of the Italian mountains are testing the links between consciousness and collapse theories of quantum physics.

Calculating the energy needed to acquire and compute information could help explain the (in)efficiency of human brains and guide the search for extra-terrestrial intelligence.

Using precision thermometry to make mini heat engines, that might, momentarily, bust through the thermodynamic limit.

Using neural networks to test definitions of 'autonomy.'

FQXi FORUM

May 24, 2022

CATEGORY:
The Nature of Time Essay Contest (2008)
[back]

TOPIC: Time, TOEs, and UltraStructuralism by Dean Rickles [refresh]

TOPIC: Time, TOEs, and UltraStructuralism by Dean Rickles [refresh]

The `frozen' character of general relativity (and background independent theories) is usually considered to be a problem for the theory. However, the most obvious resolution of this problem, involving correlations between dynamical variables, can be shown to provide a natural explanation of the appearance of time in timeless mathematical structures. I argue that this response can resolve a problem with Tegmark's extreme structuralist position, namely how to account for the appearance of time and change given that the structures in question are taken to be mathematical and, therefore, timeless.

Dean Rickles is a lecturer in History and Philosophy of Science at the University of Sydney. He works primarily on the physics of spacetime, but is also engaged in projects relating to public health and financial economics. He has written/edited several books on the philosophy of physics: The Structural Foundations of Quantum Gravity (OUP, 2006 - coedited with S. French and J. Saatsi), Symmetry, Structure and Spacetime (Elsevier, 2007), and The Ashgate Companion to Contemporary Philosophy of Physics (Ashgate, 2008).

Dear Dr. Rickles,

I enjoyed reading your essay, particularly the explanation of the relational emergence of time, as well as the presentation of the ultrastructuralist approach. I tried to understand your closing observation:

“if our universe is a mathematical structure, then we have to accept the possibility that there is an identical structure with a radically different appearance. That, as it stands, is very hard to make sense of.”

For an appearance to exist, it has to “appear” to something/somebody, for example to an observer. The “appearance” is, therefore, relational. If the world is a mathematical structure, then the observer, as a part of it, is also relational. The relation is, by definition, preserved by an isomorphism, therefore I don’t understand where the possibility of a radically different appearance resides. In my opinion, if I get it well, to perceive two identical structures as different appearances, the observer should have different relation to the two structures, for example being in this time embedded all three in a larger structure. I can interpret the realization of a structure only as an isomorphic substructure of another structure.

I find appropriate to submit to your interest a slightly complementary structuralist view, which abstracts an essential part of the physical theories, concerning space, time, causality and physical law, in a general mathematical structure (briefly presented in my essay, and more detailed at http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/archive/00004355/).

Best wishes,

Cristi Stoica

“Flowing with a Frozen River”,

http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/322

I enjoyed reading your essay, particularly the explanation of the relational emergence of time, as well as the presentation of the ultrastructuralist approach. I tried to understand your closing observation:

“if our universe is a mathematical structure, then we have to accept the possibility that there is an identical structure with a radically different appearance. That, as it stands, is very hard to make sense of.”

For an appearance to exist, it has to “appear” to something/somebody, for example to an observer. The “appearance” is, therefore, relational. If the world is a mathematical structure, then the observer, as a part of it, is also relational. The relation is, by definition, preserved by an isomorphism, therefore I don’t understand where the possibility of a radically different appearance resides. In my opinion, if I get it well, to perceive two identical structures as different appearances, the observer should have different relation to the two structures, for example being in this time embedded all three in a larger structure. I can interpret the realization of a structure only as an isomorphic substructure of another structure.

I find appropriate to submit to your interest a slightly complementary structuralist view, which abstracts an essential part of the physical theories, concerning space, time, causality and physical law, in a general mathematical structure (briefly presented in my essay, and more detailed at http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/archive/00004355/).

Best wishes,

Cristi Stoica

“Flowing with a Frozen River”,

http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/322

Dean:

May I ask you to help me understand your main idea. You wrote:

" ... general relativity leads us to view spacetime geometry as part of a dynamical system, as something that satisfies equations of motion and evolves. But clearly the evolution here cannot be understood in a temporal sense, unless we have at our disposal some external time parameter in which to understand it."

...

"The observables so 'localized' are relational in the sense that they are not defined on a background space but only relative to other dynamical entities (matter fields, spatial volume, etc.). Observables are not of the form A(x; t) (where x and t label an independent manifold) but A(B) (where B is another observable and neither B nor A is privileged in any sense)."

Footnote 5: "I restrict the discussion to classical systems in order to make the presentation easier to follow. For the technically savvy, one can transform to the quantum case, roughly, by thinking of the functional relation or correlation A(B) as representing the expectation values of A relative to the eigenvalues of B."

I am not "technically savvy" (cf. footnote 5), and cannot grasp the line of thought in the three excerpts from your essay, particularly the adverb "roughly" in footnote 5.

To be specific, the relational emergence of time poses a paradox, which may be explained as follows.

Imagine a herd of Buridan donkeys, with two stacks of hey in front of each donkey, such that the distance from any given donkey to its stacks of hey is determined -- relationally -- by 'the rest of the donkeys in the herd'.

Consider a donkey called A, and denote 'the rest of the donkeys in the herd' with B, to match your idea in the second excerpt above.

We end up with totally halted/frozen set of (Buridan) donkeys, because donkey A has to wait until the distance to its stacks of hey is determined by B , but any donkey that belongs to the subset denoted with B has to wait until the distance to its stacks of hey is determined -- relationally -- by A.

And since none of the donkeys is "privileged in any sense" (cf. above), the same halting occurs for all donkeys.

I restrict the discussion to classical donkeys in order to make the presentation of the paradox easier to follow. Hope you can solve this 'classical Buridan donkey paradox', and show that the "relational emergence of time" matches the time read by your wristwatch. Then please proceed to the mystery outlined in your footnote 5 above.

Good luck.

Dimi Chakalov

May I ask you to help me understand your main idea. You wrote:

" ... general relativity leads us to view spacetime geometry as part of a dynamical system, as something that satisfies equations of motion and evolves. But clearly the evolution here cannot be understood in a temporal sense, unless we have at our disposal some external time parameter in which to understand it."

...

"The observables so 'localized' are relational in the sense that they are not defined on a background space but only relative to other dynamical entities (matter fields, spatial volume, etc.). Observables are not of the form A(x; t) (where x and t label an independent manifold) but A(B) (where B is another observable and neither B nor A is privileged in any sense)."

Footnote 5: "I restrict the discussion to classical systems in order to make the presentation easier to follow. For the technically savvy, one can transform to the quantum case, roughly, by thinking of the functional relation or correlation A(B) as representing the expectation values of A relative to the eigenvalues of B."

I am not "technically savvy" (cf. footnote 5), and cannot grasp the line of thought in the three excerpts from your essay, particularly the adverb "roughly" in footnote 5.

To be specific, the relational emergence of time poses a paradox, which may be explained as follows.

Imagine a herd of Buridan donkeys, with two stacks of hey in front of each donkey, such that the distance from any given donkey to its stacks of hey is determined -- relationally -- by 'the rest of the donkeys in the herd'.

Consider a donkey called A, and denote 'the rest of the donkeys in the herd' with B, to match your idea in the second excerpt above.

We end up with totally halted/frozen set of (Buridan) donkeys, because donkey A has to wait until the distance to its stacks of hey is determined by B , but any donkey that belongs to the subset denoted with B has to wait until the distance to its stacks of hey is determined -- relationally -- by A.

And since none of the donkeys is "privileged in any sense" (cf. above), the same halting occurs for all donkeys.

I restrict the discussion to classical donkeys in order to make the presentation of the paradox easier to follow. Hope you can solve this 'classical Buridan donkey paradox', and show that the "relational emergence of time" matches the time read by your wristwatch. Then please proceed to the mystery outlined in your footnote 5 above.

Good luck.

Dimi Chakalov

Dear Cristi,

You make a good point: this passage wasn't very clearly expressed now I look at it again. The point I was making was simply that a given mathematical structure does not uniquely determine how it is realised or presented. 'Appears' is a badly chosen term. The point was made much more wittily by Hilbert: he noted that some mathematical structure could be given even by suitably interrelated bits of furniture.

I'll take a look at your paper on the philsci archive.

Best,

Dean

You make a good point: this passage wasn't very clearly expressed now I look at it again. The point I was making was simply that a given mathematical structure does not uniquely determine how it is realised or presented. 'Appears' is a badly chosen term. The point was made much more wittily by Hilbert: he noted that some mathematical structure could be given even by suitably interrelated bits of furniture.

I'll take a look at your paper on the philsci archive.

Best,

Dean

Dear Dimi,

The first premise of you paradox can be denied. Nowhere is it stated that the correlations hold between a system and every other system. This procedure is 'local', so that to get the dynamics for the whole universe, you would have to employ different internal times and patch them together (using some suitable transformation rules).

On footnote 5. Take a state representing the spatial geometry (in the loop approach this will be a graph or superposition of such). As explained elsewhere in the essay, physical states must satisfy constraints (now, in the quantum context, understood as operators, where the states must be annihilated by them in order to be 'physically admissible'). Such a physical state will generically represent a superposition of distinct spatial volumes (that is, one has a superposition of distinct volume eigenstates). Now, take a real number b (corresponding to some volume, represent this observable by B). One can project the superposition onto the volume eigenbasis with the eigenvalue b. One can then work out expectation values for other observables A in this projection. Do this for all values b of B and you get an A(B) that encodes the relational evolution.

Best,

Dean

The first premise of you paradox can be denied. Nowhere is it stated that the correlations hold between a system and every other system. This procedure is 'local', so that to get the dynamics for the whole universe, you would have to employ different internal times and patch them together (using some suitable transformation rules).

On footnote 5. Take a state representing the spatial geometry (in the loop approach this will be a graph or superposition of such). As explained elsewhere in the essay, physical states must satisfy constraints (now, in the quantum context, understood as operators, where the states must be annihilated by them in order to be 'physically admissible'). Such a physical state will generically represent a superposition of distinct spatial volumes (that is, one has a superposition of distinct volume eigenstates). Now, take a real number b (corresponding to some volume, represent this observable by B). One can project the superposition onto the volume eigenbasis with the eigenvalue b. One can then work out expectation values for other observables A in this projection. Do this for all values b of B and you get an A(B) that encodes the relational evolution.

Best,

Dean

Hi Don,

Great essay. I must also tell you that I have been a fan of yours for quite some time. Not just the comedy either. I thought your acting in the movie "Casino" with Robert DeNiro and Joe Pesci was terrific. And now you are adding physics to the list. Wonderful. Even as I look at your title page I ...oh, wait....sorry - it's Dean. Of course. Don't I feel like the dummy. Well anyway, I really did enjoy the essay and was particularly thankful that you referenced Einstein's 1918 Twin Paradox paper. I think we may be the only two on this list who have (although for different reasons). By the way - Richard Feynman had a great line comparing Physics and Mathematics but I can't say it here.

Take care,

CJ

Great essay. I must also tell you that I have been a fan of yours for quite some time. Not just the comedy either. I thought your acting in the movie "Casino" with Robert DeNiro and Joe Pesci was terrific. And now you are adding physics to the list. Wonderful. Even as I look at your title page I ...oh, wait....sorry - it's Dean. Of course. Don't I feel like the dummy. Well anyway, I really did enjoy the essay and was particularly thankful that you referenced Einstein's 1918 Twin Paradox paper. I think we may be the only two on this list who have (although for different reasons). By the way - Richard Feynman had a great line comparing Physics and Mathematics but I can't say it here.

Take care,

CJ

Dean:

RE your reply from Dec. 4, 2008 @ 02:16 GMT: to get the dynamics for 'the whole universe' -- the only 'truly isolated system' -- your first off task is to define some reference object with respect to which you can talk about 'the whole universe'. As you acknowledged, your procedure is 'local', hence you are forced to "employ different internal times and patch them together (using some suitable transformation rules)", which in turn makes your "relational evolution" look like pulling yourself (and your horse) out of the swamp by your own hair (Baron Munchausen).

The task is known since Aristotle -- recall The First Cause and Karel Kuchar's Unmoved Mover ("The Problem of Time In Quantum Geometrodynamics", in "The Arguments of Time", ed. by Jeremy Butterfield, Oxford University Press, Oxford, 1999, p. 193).

I'm afraid you have completely missed the argument in the Buridan donkey paradox.

D.C.

RE your reply from Dec. 4, 2008 @ 02:16 GMT: to get the dynamics for 'the whole universe' -- the only 'truly isolated system' -- your first off task is to define some reference object with respect to which you can talk about 'the whole universe'. As you acknowledged, your procedure is 'local', hence you are forced to "employ different internal times and patch them together (using some suitable transformation rules)", which in turn makes your "relational evolution" look like pulling yourself (and your horse) out of the swamp by your own hair (Baron Munchausen).

The task is known since Aristotle -- recall The First Cause and Karel Kuchar's Unmoved Mover ("The Problem of Time In Quantum Geometrodynamics", in "The Arguments of Time", ed. by Jeremy Butterfield, Oxford University Press, Oxford, 1999, p. 193).

I'm afraid you have completely missed the argument in the Buridan donkey paradox.

D.C.

Login or create account to post reply or comment.