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RECENT POSTS IN THIS TOPIC

Robert McEachern: on 10/19/20 at 23:12pm UTC, wrote JRC wrote: "That individual divergence spans the paradigm difference of an...

Robert McEachern: on 10/19/20 at 20:08pm UTC, wrote Stefan asked: "Therefore my question: is your theory falsifiable..." Of...

John Cox: on 10/19/20 at 15:27pm UTC, wrote Robert, Doc and Steve, i.e. "measuring a bit polarization outcome does not...

Steve Agnew: on 10/19/20 at 13:50pm UTC, wrote ...an here is the whole scheme...

Steve Agnew: on 10/19/20 at 13:48pm UTC, wrote Boy, you really love this Shannon-Hartley law of bits versus bandwidth and...

Steve Dufourny: on 10/19/20 at 10:46am UTC, wrote If Max Tegmark is right about the fact that the maths are foundamental ,...

Steve Dufourny: on 10/19/20 at 10:38am UTC, wrote we arrive at these hidden variables and new parameters to superimpose, the...

Steve Dufourny: on 10/19/20 at 10:28am UTC, wrote Hi Stefan, you speak about a relevant point of vue in fact, how can we...



FQXi FORUM
October 20, 2020

CATEGORY: Ultimate Reality [back]
TOPIC: Answering Mermin’s Challenge [refresh]
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FQXi Administrator Zeeya Merali wrote on Sep. 28, 2020 @ 15:11 GMT
There's a new paper in Scientific Reports by Mark Stuckey and colleagues showing that the relativity principle responsible for time dilation and length contraction in special relativity is also responsible for Bell state entanglement.

From the abstract:

"In 1981, Mermin published a now famous paper titled, “Bringing home the atomic world: Quantum mysteries for anybody” that Feynman called, “One of the most beautiful papers in physics that I know.” Therein, he presented the “Mermin device” that illustrates the conundrum of quantum entanglement per the Bell spin states for the “general reader.” He then challenged the “physicist reader” to explain the way the device works “in terms meaningful to a general reader struggling with the dilemma raised by the device.” Herein, we show how “conservation per no preferred reference frame (NPRF)” answers that challenge. In short, the explicit conservation that obtains for Alice and Bob’s Stern-Gerlach spin measurement outcomes in the same reference frame holds only on average in different reference frames, not on a trial-by-trial basis. This conservation is SO(3) invariant in the relevant symmetry plane in real space per the SU(2) invariance of its corresponding Bell spin state in Hilbert space. Since NPRF is also responsible for the postulates of special relativity, and therefore its counterintuitive aspects of time dilation and length contraction, we see that the symmetry group relating non-relativistic quantum mechanics and special relativity via their “mysteries” is the restricted Lorentz group."

Thank you to Mark Stuckey for suggesting that we open a forum thread to discuss this paper.

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John R. Cox replied on Sep. 29, 2020 @ 14:10 GMT
This should be great! There is so much to argue for much of what we measure that are actually averaged results, and that averaging is what makes physical constants, constant.

Mermin specifies electrons not photons in the SG apparatus, so for a benchtop experimentalist's approach we are looking at attempting to stage time-wise, the projection of two electrons at the same (or near to it) velocity in opposite directions through identical (or near to it) homogeneous magnetic fields. It is those magnets that induce a dipole moment on each electron of the pair, but physically we cannot say that the pair of electrons at origin are entangled. It is all in the time-wise staging and projection velocities that entangle them. And it is physically simply the antipodal directions of the electrons in flight that accounts for the anti-correlation of spin up and spin down when the magnets are both vertically aligned in the same N up S dn orientation to the vertical plane of the source. jrc

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John R. Cox wrote on Sep. 29, 2020 @ 00:28 GMT
Thanks Zeeya,

this paper is worth going over repeatedly and is on my favorites bar. Where I think people get confused with SR is that there is NPRF of what the rate of passage of time might be either, it could be anything from nil to light velocity. The LT is just calculated from the relative rates of uniform motion. Does anybody really know what time it is? jrc

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Steve Dufourny wrote on Sep. 29, 2020 @ 07:45 GMT
Hi Zeeya, thanks for sharing this paper, it seems very relevant, regards

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John R. Cox replied on Sep. 30, 2020 @ 03:25 GMT
Hi Steve,

a little help here if you could. If the restricted Lorentz group is a group of coordinates on a hyperbolic space that is tilted to different angles of rotation (that is, each tilt is a seperate measurement of a Lorentz boost of 4 transforms, not an accelerated, or moving rotation) and that those coordinate points on the hyperboloid are connected by a continuous curved line; can we surmise from the figs. and text of the paper that any line for any of the detector settings would be represented on a plane as is the shape of either the upper or lower recursive lines of the 'pattern observed experimentally' in fig.1 . The upper recursive line representing spin up detection transform coordinates; and the lower, spin down detections of the binary choice produced by projected singlet pairs. ??? jrc

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Steve Dufourny replied on Sep. 30, 2020 @ 16:30 GMT
Hi John, It is about the minkowski spacetime and the transformations of Lorentz, if we take this restricted SO(1,3) for the automorphisms, we change just if my memory is good the referentials in conserving the orientations spatio temporals, these transformations are just changements inertial of referentials. If the spin up and down are like binary systems, I cannot answer because for me it is not correlated the balance with the relativity only , I consider a deeper logic with two senses of rotation but not for the photons wich turn in one precise sense , and I balance with the cold dark matter and the anti matter the same in fqct, so it becomes non relativistic and so the lorentz transformations are not the same because it is not about this special relativity, but you can consider an other logic for the quadrimoments and with the lie algebras and these lorentz transformations, that can help I beleive, but I am not a specialist of this method for the rotating light if I can say. Could you be nore precise still please ?regards

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Steve Dufourny replied on Sep. 30, 2020 @ 17:07 GMT
John, what you tell is very important for the quantum computing and the qubits , my idea is different than the fact to consider only photons or electrons and their spins, moments or others, like I told you I consider a deeper logic than just these photons and so the lorenyz transformations of course are relevant for our relativity , but if we rank the quantum informations with a deeper logic, all...

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Steve Agnew wrote on Sep. 30, 2020 @ 18:26 GMT
I have not actually ever seen the Mermin device before, but am very familiar with the Stern-Gerlach apparatus that Mermin's device models. The Mermin device illustrates quantum superposition for single entangled particles just like the Stern-Gerlach device does for each particle and also illustrates the quantum measurement "problem" quite well too.

The challenge seems to be to explain in...

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attachments: MerminExperiment.jpg

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John R. Cox replied on Sep. 30, 2020 @ 19:25 GMT
Thank you for that Doc, that gives a good start for browsing up a reading list.jrc

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John R. Cox replied on Oct. 1, 2020 @ 00:52 GMT
Dr. Agnew,

The reading I've started referencing SG does make better sense of the operational meaning of superposition than I have been assuming from the common application to photonic probability distribution. Thanks much again. Now I'm as obliged QM-wise, as I am to Tom Ray for peeling the scales from my eyes in GR. Not that I'll abandon a classical model, in fact I was struck with a...

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Steve Agnew wrote on Oct. 1, 2020 @ 23:52 GMT
...oh...you did mention phase once..but not quantum. Ok...you love a determinate materialist classical reality so you are not alone...but somehow you are here in a quantum muck...

I love classical physics because classical differentials model reality really well. I also love quantum physics because quantum phase is how the universe really works and quantum field theory works very well.

What surprises me as a working scientist all these years is that the Science community cannot get its collective act in order and get a quantum gravity. Science still cannot describe a common basis for quantum charge and gravity relativity. Even very smart people like Steven Weinberg, Sean Carroll, Lee Smolin, and Sabrina Hosenfelder disagree vehemently about the nature of physical reality. And yet, none of them as a way to derive the universe from a few simple principles much less a way to derive charge and gravity from a the same simple principle...

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John R. Cox replied on Oct. 2, 2020 @ 03:07 GMT
Doc,

well... yeh, these days if you shoehorn in a lower case 'h' its quantum. But that lower case 'h' is derivative of Planck's classical distribution theorem and it (reasonably) assumes an equal partition of probability and demonstrates that a path of least resistance provides an escape from the ultra-violet catastrophe. So at some point in the spectrum we might also expect an equipartition of 'h', and we functionally assume that in the reduced Planck constant. In conjugal application, then, we can safely assume that 'h' is the averaged least observable value of action, so while that action by e=hf obtains that value for any observed wavelength, it matters little if a photon is a single phase outcome or a measure of aggregate phase actions. A partition of 'h' proportional to wavelength, into a rest matter phase particle small enough to be accelerated to light velocity would require the remainder of 'h' as the accelerating charge. That combined partitioning would be conserved in the outcome. Again in the interest of theoretical modeling, it matters naught if the reality is a single photon or the work function of many that quantizes the spectral lines. That least observable action per wavelength provides a means for a realistic phase cyclic model to assign requisite densities associated with primary force effects, and evolve a static state matter phase free rest mass. What's not quantum in a continuous function if the result is some observable quantized outcome?

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Steve Dufourny replied on Oct. 2, 2020 @ 09:08 GMT
Hi To both of you,

Steve , I agree that the classical model reality is essential and that this universe is simple, we can in logic explain the quantum mechanics with several tools and the quantum phases are important. It exists like universal partitions towards our main codes , but like I said unfortunally we don t know these foundamental objects and also the real philosophical origin of this universe, so what we analyse at this moment are just effects and of course we are very limitated due to problems of knowledges and technologies. I beleive also strongly that these phases and fields are essential, but we have probably a deeper logic to superimpose to reach our unknowns. I really doubt and it is just my opinion that we have just these phtons and relativity like primoridal essence, I don t tell that this relativity is not correct, of course it is relevant, I just tell that we cannot be sure that it is the only one piece of puzzle. Even Einstein told it, he considered a probable deeper logic to all this. The gravitational quantum fields for me are not electromagnetic or emergent from this electromagntism, I really think that it is a n other logic of encoding in our nuclei, this force is different. Regards

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John R. Cox wrote on Oct. 2, 2020 @ 14:21 GMT
Steve and Doc,

I thought I'd posted a response but it is probably just as well that it didn't take. Too wordy. The gist was that the Quantum is a measure of action and a multiple of Quanta. And that Quanta is incomprehensibly small to our human experience. It is mentally meaningless to imagine that the fundamental unit of work is roughly equivalent to a decimal point followed by 34 zeroes and a 7 watt incandescent Christmas Tree light bulb.

But given that it IS that small, the prediction by the limitation on degrees of freedom in SR, that at light velocity any inertially bound mass equivalent quantity of energy would become infinite, is definitely a mathematical consequence not the physical reality. The phase action is a function of velocity, and if given a postulate that energy density varies in direct inverse proportion to velocity, then at progressively higher velocities and corresponding lower densities the induction reactance of a charge field to a field intensity propelling acceleration would also become correspondingly lower.

So we can treat physical phenomenon in simple terms of the action of change between a material phase and an energy phase. What may characterize a photon from a subluminal, gravitational mass may well be that the proportional upper density bound of a photon in its matter phase is lower than an empirical density which exhibits inelastic response... hence it is a particle of charge not kinetic ballistic impact. It is still a mass, but gravitational response measured as mass might require an inelastic density characteristic that would be proportional to a greater mass quantity matter phase. :-) jrc

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Steve Agnew replied on Oct. 10, 2020 @ 04:31 GMT
I am sorry...this is a word salad.

You need to begin your universe with a very simple principles and show how those principles explain everything.

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William Mark Stuckey wrote on Oct. 14, 2020 @ 16:56 GMT
Here is a summary of the paper for a general audience.

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Robert H McEachern replied on Oct. 15, 2020 @ 13:44 GMT
That paper states that "When the SG magnets are oriented the same way (case (a)), the outcomes are always the same due to conservation of spin angular momentum between the pair of particles."

But that statement assumes that all the "outcomes" of every detection event are in fact correct and thus indicative of the "true" state" of the entity being measured. But it has been demonstrated that such perfectly correct outcomes are not even a logical possibility, in purely classical systems, whenever the system has been constructed such that it manifests only one, single bit of information. In other words, even when the system is constructed with perfectly anti-parallel "entangled particles", the actually detected "outcomes" cannot possibly be anti-parallel in every case ("bit-errors" are inevitable in some detections), and the probability of detections failing to be anti-parallel, is a function of the misalignment between the polarization axis of the entity being measured and the axis of the measuring device.

The paper then says "Instead, what happens in case (b) trials is that Bob's outcomes corresponding to Alice's outcomes for a particular setting correctly average to what one would expect for conservation of spin angular momentum (Figure 4)."

That statement is correct - precisely because the average is based upon coincidence-detection, that systematically fails to detect the entangled pairs most prone to producing the bit-errors; because, the mechanism that causes the bit-errors is the same as that which causes coincidence-detection to fail to detect every particle pair.

Rob McEachern

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Steve Agnew replied on Oct. 17, 2020 @ 16:27 GMT
I love your stubborn "Shannon bit noise explains quantum phase..." argument.

The basic issue with quantum measurements is that once an observer measures two entangled spin states from a single electron outcome, that observer cannot then know what the precursor spin state was for that electron. This means that before observation, quantum spin states exist as a superposition of both spin states.

Classical electron spin states represent revealed knowledge in that the classical observer measures a classical electron that the classical measurement reveals certain the spin states before the measurement, albeit within the classical Shannon noise level of the measurement. In the absence of perturbations, classical spin state outcome coming from a precursor necessarily means that spin state existed prior to the measurement and the measurement simply revealed that hidden knowledge.

The revealed knowledge of classical Shannon noise has no bit limit since a higher resolution classical measurement bit is always possible. Single electrons represent a limit for a Shannon bit, but a single electron is a qubit since it has quantum phase.

A electron simply cannot exist as a classical bit, so this classical explanation for quantum phase simply invents a new particle of matter called a classical bit. However, there is no way to measure a classical bit of noise without quantum phase.

By carefully fitting bit errors as a function of quantum phase angle, a classical bit can fit quantum phase correlations like Bell's. There is of course a classical noise fit to the Stern-Gerlach quantum phase as well. These classical noise fits have no useful predictions for any other measurements. In fact, a classical noise "hidden" function that fits a quantum phase property is a proof of the validity of a hidden quantum phase, not proof of classical noise...here is the figure from 2019jul...

attachments: 1_mceachernCorrelate.jpg

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Steve Dufourny replied on Oct. 17, 2020 @ 17:01 GMT
Hi , I liked also, but a question intrigues me, what is really an electron, I have my idea in my model and these spheres but they are intriguing in fact.

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Steve Agnew wrote on Oct. 18, 2020 @ 00:00 GMT
"A question intrigues me, what is really an electron, I have my idea in my model and these spheres but they are intriguing in fact."...Steve Defourny.

An electron definition is really quite tricky since, as a fundamental particle, it is like asking why the universe exists or why matter exists at all. Electrons exist because they exist, which is an identity and hardly helpful. Science says...

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Steve Dufourny replied on Oct. 18, 2020 @ 08:17 GMT
Hi Steve, thanks for developing, it is well explained. I like the works of Dirac , the matter action of course seems relevant , we need to know more because like I told we have limitations in knowledges unfortunally about the main origin of our reality and we don t know really also these foundamental mathematical and physical objects , your explainations were a pleasure to read, I study in the same time, thanks still. Regards

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Steve Dufourny replied on Oct. 18, 2020 @ 12:33 GMT
Steve , if we take the matter action and if we correlate with the einstein hilbert action and the fields equations, we consider this general relativity and still these photons like primordial essence, I like these works, but we cannot affirm that this is the main origin of our universe, einstein recognised this, that is why for me they cannot renormalise and quantified this quantum gravitation ,...

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Steve Dufourny replied on Oct. 18, 2020 @ 15:35 GMT
If we take the charged point particles for the einstein gravitational field, we see the motions and the effects on this spacetime that we observe, but all this is for observations , I beleive humbly that it is the problem when the searchers try to unify this GR and the QM to reach this quantum gravitation, in fact we must consider a different logic because what we searc is not about the...

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