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adel sadeq: on 5/18/20 at 18:49pm UTC, wrote Dear Pavel, Thank you for reading and commenting on my...

Pavel Poluian: on 5/18/20 at 17:27pm UTC, wrote Thank you for your interesting essay. I have already read it and evaluated...

Pavel Poluian: on 5/18/20 at 17:14pm UTC, wrote Yes, thanks. Now I’ll look and give a rating.

adel sadeq: on 5/18/20 at 16:57pm UTC, wrote Not sure why there is some error in the posting but here is the link ...

adel sadeq: on 5/18/20 at 16:55pm UTC, wrote Dear Pavel , Maybe my essay will be an interest to you, since it is based...

Pavel Poluian: on 5/18/20 at 12:47pm UTC, wrote Thanks for the comment. I recall the cave of Plato ... And there is a Plato...

Bala Subramanian : on 5/18/20 at 9:42am UTC, wrote Interesting approach to understand our reality. In my view a simple...

Pavel Poluian: on 5/18/20 at 8:50am UTC, wrote Dear Professor Christian Corda! Thank you for your interest in our essay...


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FQXi FORUM
May 25, 2020

CATEGORY: Undecidability, Uncomputability, and Unpredictability Essay Contest (2019-2020) [back]
TOPIC: New ontology: algorithmic laws and the passage of time by Pavel Vadimovich Poluian [refresh]
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Author Pavel Vadimovich Poluian wrote on Apr. 23, 2020 @ 13:08 GMT
Essay Abstract

The concept of the algorithm, known from computability theory, should become the basis for an ontology of the Universe. This should lead to a change in the paradigm of natural science cognition. We argue that, with the exception of fundamental physical laws, all other laws are algorithmic. To illustrate this statement, the chess metaphor proposed by Richard Feynman is convenient, where the given rules of the game are the basic laws, and the laws of the deployment of compositions are the laws of the relationship between the basic elements in different situations. Since the game is algorithmic, it is possible to extend this property to the objective laws of the Universe. The main property of algorithmicity is the sequence of steps and information interaction. To express this, we introduce a new concept of time. The following definitions are given: 1) there is a set that we call "Time"; 2) this set consists of an infinite number of individual elements, which we call "Moments"; 3) all elements of a given set have a peculiarity: if one element is REAL, all other elements of the set are UNREAL; 4) we will call sets of this type – "AREAL SETS". It was found that the elementary areal relation is a logical law of contradiction: statements A and NOT-A together form an areal set of two elements. Formulating the law of contradiction, Aristotle and all the logicians after him constantly emphasized: there cannot be A and NOT-A in the same respect at the same TIME. We propose to rearrange the emphasis: in our formulation, AREALITY is a special logical relation that can simulate natural Time. The new model defines the time order in the form of definite characters’ sequence. The proposed ontology is related to the definition and introduction of the digital physics paradigm.

Author Bio

Pavel Poluian, Krasnoyarsk State University (1980, now Siberian Federal University). He worked in geophysics. Now - assistant professor at the Department of Philosophy of the SFU, Ph.D., author of a scientific monograph and of many articles. Member of World Philosophical Congresses. In different references to his work, a different spelling of the surname is given - a consequence of changes in English transcription. (The correct: Poluian is now.) Dmitry Lichargin, Siberian State Aerospace University (2015). Now - associate professor at the Department of Informatics of the Siberian Federal University, Ph.D. in Computer Science, author of more than 110 scientific articles.

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Satyavarapu Naga Parameswara Gupta wrote on Apr. 23, 2020 @ 20:15 GMT
Respected Professor Pavel Vadimovich Poluian

Best wishes to your essay...

Undecidability, Uncomputability, and Unpredictability are very much undesirable properties and out-comes of any theory. That theory might have developed by a very reputed person or by a group of well-educated and knowledgeable persons. There is no point of poring resources, money and highly educated man power into that theory when that theory is failing on above three points.

I just elaborated what should be the freedom available to an author when the “ real open thinking” is supported. Have a look at my essay please.

“A properly deciding, Computing and Predicting new theory’s Philosophy”

=snp.gupta

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Author Pavel Vadimovich Poluian replied on Apr. 27, 2020 @ 10:36 GMT
Your work and analysis is really deep and factually reasonable. Thank you for your comment. Freedom is the starting point for any realization and filling the life with the meaning and existencal core. Freedom first is over the unity of human perception as the ocean of opportunities. But, the after mental work if is collapsed to the creative findings and then is manifested through communication, interaction and activity to the realization of somebody's dreams. So, the is one of the aspects of the glorious existence around the globe.

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Satyavarapu Naga Parameswara Gupta replied on May. 16, 2020 @ 21:56 GMT
Dear Prof Pavel Poluyan and Dmitry Lichargin,

Thank you for wonderful words and liking my essay. I also liked essay, Mine was the first comment on your essay about a month back.

I gave you best rating to your essay today

We will be contacting by mail. I set a mail, please check

Best Wishes to your essay

=snp

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Author Pavel Vadimovich Poluian replied on May. 17, 2020 @ 03:27 GMT
Dear Satyavarapu Naga Parameswara Gupta!

Thank you for your message!

Pavel Poluian and Dmitry Lichargin,

Siberian Federal University.

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Vladimir Rogozhin wrote on May. 2, 2020 @ 08:41 GMT
Dear Pavel and Dmitry,

You presented a very interesting essay with original ideas that are aimed at overcoming the crisis of understanding in the philosophical basis of fundamental science. I completely agree that a breakthrough to a new ontology is needed to overcome the crisis. Carlo Rovelli in his article Physics Needs Philosophy / Philosophy Needs Physics provides a list of issues that are discussed in the physical community and the first two of them are ontological: “What is space?” and "What is time?" It is also appropriate here to recall the philosophical testament of Paul Florensky: “We repeat: worldunderstanding is spaceunderstanding / Повторяем: миропонимание - пространствопонимание.” Today, as never before, the “assembly” of alternative views on the Universum as an holistic generating process is necessary. The problem of the “beginning” and the “path” are the key ones; they give rise to “troubles” not only in physics and mathematics, but also in global society. Indeed, John Archibald Wheeler is right: “Philosophy is too important to be left to the philosophers.” I wish you success and all the very best!

I invite you to see also my ontological ideas .

Vladimir

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Author Pavel Vadimovich Poluian replied on May. 11, 2020 @ 04:39 GMT
Dear Vladimir,

Thank you so much for the high estimation. It is also very important that you underline the holistic aspect in the process of algorithmic ontology simulation. The social community is now far ahead from the time of simplistic explanations, and we are glad to join this community job. We hope that this essay could be understood by the researcher involved in different branches of investigation, for us to involve the summarizing in the general philosophical outlook, a bit deeper that it was before. We are glad to study these things deeper jointly in collaboration with the profound society.

Truly yours,

Pavel Poluyan and Dmitry Lichargin,

Siberian Federal University.

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Anna Sitnikova wrote on May. 9, 2020 @ 10:08 GMT
Dear Pavel,

I have seen your interesting and bright comments to other papers, you are really involved in the professional academic study. I made up my mind to view your initial paper. It was a surprise for me. Time is not now a miracle for me, all is explained logically and reasonably. I am sure you deserve the first price here in the event. Thank you for your work and your activity here.

A.T. Sitnikova,

PhD in computer biology.

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Author Pavel Vadimovich Poluian replied on May. 11, 2020 @ 04:46 GMT
Dear Doctor Sitnikova,

Thank you so much for your high estimation of our research. We highly estimate the importance of been demanded by the reader of our results. We also would like to stress upon the idea that the time is not a clear and transparent issue even now, and probably it will stay to be largely undiscovered, because the comprehension of the deeper meaning of the reality is infinite, and that is very optimistic, because time cannot ever stop for any observer (consciousness).

Best Regards,

Pavel Poluyan and Dmitry Lichargin,

Siberian Federal University

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Author Pavel Vadimovich Poluian replied on May. 16, 2020 @ 14:33 GMT
Dear Alexandra Alexandrovna!

Thanks for your feedback. What is your opinion on other essays? Who do you recommend to see?

Sincerely, Pavel Poluian

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Alyssa Adams wrote on May. 11, 2020 @ 02:33 GMT
Hi Pavel and Dmitry!

Thank you so much for such an interesting essay! I like your point about digital physics and the results of Russian philosophers on connecting the computational world to the physical one. it's interesting to think that there are two separate worlds, especially since these thoughts come from our minds which are rooted in physical reality! Inherently then, computation comes from physical processes. It seems that algorithms are like a "shortcut" that we use to make predictions and compress the world around us. Great essay, I enjoyed it a lot!

Cheers!

Alyssa

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Author Pavel Vadimovich Poluian replied on May. 11, 2020 @ 04:59 GMT
Dear Alyssa,

We would like to thank you for your high estimation of our work. Probably, the analytical world you are talking about is just like a rainbow that has separated colors within the viewer focuses enjoying the brightness of the holistic white light of this perfect world. In the world perceived as it is we have a deep continuum of matter full of individual phenomena, information and unconditional meaning. So, the material union of the world does not anyhow deny the information and the fact that idealist and materialism are two equal ways of perceiving the nature. Our human mind and perception can feel pure ideas, that makes human the subject if reality, the target of all the systems existence, including social, authoritative, cultural and so on and on.

Best Kind Regards,

Pavel Poluyan and Dmitry Lichargin

Siberian Federal University

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Author Pavel Vadimovich Poluian replied on May. 16, 2020 @ 15:48 GMT
Dear Alyssa Adams!

I carefully read your essay "Who Wants to be a Millionaire? A Guide to Computing Complex Systems". Thanks for the interesting essay! This is essentially a bold original article for an important newspaper!

I liked your unexpected association of the current pandemic with the collapse of the financial market. At the 2018 World Philosophical Congress in Beijing, I publicly said: "Soon the world will face a financial crisis. It will be a controlled demolition of the stock market. Market makers want to destroy fictitious capital. For`s this purpose the threat of war is organized!"

Before that, I wrote several articles about the fact that they will try to mask the coming economic crisis with international military conflicts. But I did not imagine that they use a pandemic scarecrow for this. Let's hope that all these experiences will remain in the past.

Otherwise, our views are similar. You are also looking for algorithms and calculations in the objective world around us. Yes, it’s clear that in a flying fly, very specific calculations take place that control the flight. But what calculations take place in the solar system? It is known that Newton believed that the solar system is unstable, and God constantly intervenes, controlling and coordinating the movement of all the planets. Laplace proved that there are certain mechanisms that determine stability. Can these feedback mechanisms be called computation?

I wish you success in your scientific work!

Sincerely, Pavel Poluian.

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sherman loran jenkins wrote on May. 14, 2020 @ 21:21 GMT
Pavel

A new era dawns.  Old questions become quaint and historical.  Is the whole community ready?  Or is physical reality too dangerous for our collective understanding at this time? 

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Author Pavel Vadimovich Poluian replied on May. 15, 2020 @ 03:23 GMT
Yes, I share your concerns.

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Jochen Szangolies wrote on May. 15, 2020 @ 17:01 GMT
Dear Pavel and Dimitry,

thanks for steering me towards your essay! I don't have much time for an in-depth comment right now, but I wanted to point out that it seems your approach is 'Gödelian' in quite another way from many of the other essays in this contest---fellow contestant Hippolyte Dourdent, in his article, quotes the great logician as saying that "time is the means by which God

realized the inconceivable that P and non-P are both true"---a lesson which seems to get to the heart of your approach.

It also seems to me that there is an interesting relationship between your 'areal sets' and the notion of complete sets of commuting observables in quantum mechanics---in the sense that, if a system has a definite value within the observables of one such set, it fails to have a definite value for all others. For instance, an electron having a definite value of spin for one particular direction (and consequently, having a definite value for all observables commuting with the spin-operator in that direction), fails to have a definite value for spin in all other directions.

Also, I quite liked the entry point you chose for your essay---St. Augustine is not somebody you expect to meet in such a contest. But then again, it was him who said about what time is, "if no one asks me, I know; if I wish to explain to him who asks, I know not". Perhaps, still, not entirely inappropriate.

Good luck in the contest!

Cheers

Jochen

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Author Pavel Vadimovich Poluian replied on May. 16, 2020 @ 17:15 GMT
Dear Jochen!

Thank you very much for the praise and valuable comments. We will definitely use them in future work. Currently, we are developing a startup project where a new fundamental ontology is being developed, which allows integrating ontologies of subject areas.In the world there is something called GENESIS. And there is what is called TIME. Therefore, we believe that the very principles of mathematics need a deeper clarification. For example, Hegel tried to see the genesis in logic. We think it makes sense to look for the genesis in mathematical structures.

We wish you a successful scientific work!

Truly yours,

Pavel Poluian and Dmitry Lichargin,

Siberian Federal University.

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Peter Jackson wrote on May. 16, 2020 @ 18:51 GMT
Pavel,

Fascinating and original view, well considered and also well presented.

I've spent much time on time, recently circumnavigating with a rubidium oscillator to confirm H&K plus more. I have a model explaining why east and west acceleration have the opposite effect on oscillation rates, not inconsistent with your approach. Do you have a rationale?

Thank you.

Peter

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Author Pavel Vadimovich Poluian replied on May. 17, 2020 @ 03:22 GMT
Dear Peter!

Thank you for your interesting comment. We have no answer to your question about accelerations... Whether the metric of space-time is non-ideal? Can we say that the distances between points are variable and change stochastically? Is a perfect ball possible in mathematics? Is this our planet Earth?

Pavel Poluian and Dmitry Lichargin,

Siberian Federal University.

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Branko L Zivlak wrote on May. 16, 2020 @ 22:50 GMT
Dear Pavel Vadimovich Poluian

Thanks for the comment on my forum. I believe we mean the same thing. When you say: essential mathematics (the language of God) I mean discovered mathematics. When you say: mathematics for modeling - human language, I say invented mathematics. The first is responsible for the universe and us in it.

Regarding your essay, my experience is that some problems do not even need to be posed and therefore not to solve. Thus, for example, the problem of the shape of the universe is a fictional problem. The universe has no shape. The problem of the number of dimensions is also unnecessary. In my mathematical universe I function quite well without dimensions with only three properties mass, radius and time. Some even think that two properties are enough. You deal with time a lot in your essay. It is specific, which can be viewed in two ways. As the inverse value of the frequency, it is, like the frequency, limited. But if we understand it as the flow of time, we get that the universe is eternal, without beginning and end, than it is not limited.

Regards,

Branko

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Author Pavel Vadimovich Poluian replied on May. 17, 2020 @ 03:42 GMT
Dear Branko!

Thanks for the clarification. Yes, we think the same about two types of mathematics. Just like you. The number of dimensions of space depends on the objective situation that we are modeling. For example, in the theory of relativity four dimensions of Minkowski arose. Regarding the limitations of the Universe in space and time, we believe that Immanuel Kant is right - and the question of finiteness-infinity reveals the boundary of our concepts.

We are always glad to talk about such issues. Thanks you!

Truly yours,

Pavel Poluyan and Dmitry Lichargin,

Siberian Federal University.

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Vladimir Nikolaevich Fedorov wrote on May. 17, 2020 @ 03:49 GMT
Dear Pavel and Dmitry,

I greatly appreciated your work and discussion. I am very glad that you are not thinking in abstract patterns.

While the discussion lasted, I wrote an article: “Practical guidance on calculating resonant frequencies at four levels of diagnosis and inactivation of COVID-19 coronavirus”, due to the high relevance of this topic. The work is based on the practical solution of problems in quantum mechanics, presented in the essay FQXi 2019-2020 “Universal quantum laws of the universe to solve the problems of unsolvability, computability and unpredictability”.

I hope that my modest results of work will provide you with information for thought.

Warm Regards, `

Vladimir

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Author Pavel Vadimovich Poluian replied on May. 17, 2020 @ 04:01 GMT
Thank you, Vladimir!

We wish you success in research!

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Cristinel Stoica wrote on May. 17, 2020 @ 05:50 GMT
Dear Pavel and Dmitry,

Very original essay, well written and explained. I appreciate the intention to put time back in physics, which you attempt with many interesting ideas and connect with computability and computational complexity. Thank you, and good luck in the contest!

Cheers,

Cristi

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Author Pavel Vadimovich Poluian replied on May. 17, 2020 @ 06:16 GMT
Dear Cristi Stoica!

Thank you so much! We will be happy to maintain scientific contacts and cooperation!

Pavel and Dmitry

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Luca Valeri wrote on May. 17, 2020 @ 15:14 GMT
Dear Pavel and Dmitry,

Thanks for your appreciation and your interesting question in my blog - where I tried to answer.

I read you essays with great interest and you made me appreciate the algorithmic approach to physics. So a few questions remain for me and I hope these might be interesting for you:

1. You seem to accept unchangeable fundamental laws, that are not algorithmic. Why do you need these? Is the aim of your approach just to describe emergent mesoscopic laws (which of course is also very interesting).

2. You seem to have two kind of times. One in the fundamental laws and one in the algorithmic laws. How are they connected to each other?

3. Is the areal set constant trough time? Meaning it contains all possible states the universe or some system can ever take. Or can it change and is open to evolution? If yes is this change also described by some algorithm?

4. The areal set structure seem to correspond to a classical boolean logic. How does quantum mechanics plays into this. In QM the boolean logic comes into play, when measurements come into play or/and when contexts are set. In this domain only probabilistic laws can be formulated. If one wants deterministic laws, the unitary evolution of the wave function has to be considered. But there the boolean logic does not apply.

Hope these questions make sense to you.

Best luck in the contest.

Luca

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Author Pavel Vadimovich Poluian replied on May. 17, 2020 @ 17:18 GMT
You made us happy! Thanks so much for such an attentive reading and important questions. Try to answer.

1. You seem to accept unchanging fundamental laws... ?

- There must be some fundamental basis for the algorithms. Maybe we should start with a fundamental ontology, when some laws that now seem to be fundamental will become algorithmic.

Is the aim of your approach just to describe emergent mesoscopic laws (which of course is also very interesting)...?

- Yes, this approach seems attractive to us. But we admit that reality is even more complex. We adhere to the general philosophy of Kant. There is a world beyond the walls of our matrix cave.

2. It seems you have two kinds of time... ?

- Time for algorithmic laws is a discrete change of moments. And fundamental laws are timeless. It is an eternity.

3. Is the set area constant trough time?....? ...?

- This is a difficult question. We are inclined to believe that there is a Multiversum where all the options branch. But this can also be understood in different ways. Here comes the meta-form of a computer game. We play it, but all the development options for the course of the game are already set in the computer program. Or, for example, chess. There are a finite number of options for the arrangement of positions and all parties. They are all as if given. But there is also a certain individualization — the position of the figure on the cell. It does not matter for the party, but THIS IS. Perhaps something similar exists in the world - macroevents are already set in the Multiversum, and micropositions are infinitely different.

4. Structure....?

- We do not mean quantum mechanics or probability here. Areality is a conceptual principle. Areally, the set of two A and non-A in the law of contradiction. This is so, independent of quantum mechanics.

Thanks so much for your interest! Ask for more!

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James Lee Hoover wrote on May. 17, 2020 @ 16:10 GMT
Pavel and Dmitry,

Thank you for reading my essay and your kind words. Regarding your New ontology, I must say that I'm not a fan of digital physics, but you do make a compelling case for algorithmic laws, making the point that they can change depending on the initial conditions being under study and external parameters. As you know the popular media tends to stereotype things not understood and sees a heuristic approach as mental shortcuts, but your approach does convince otherwise. When you say the formation of a special non-classical ontology, I take it to have more depth than just eschewing the macro world, meaning other than classical real analysis. In this, in effect, world of ambush, my rating is your 12th.

Regards,

Jim Hoover

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Author Pavel Vadimovich Poluian replied on May. 17, 2020 @ 17:22 GMT
Dear Dr. Hoover!

Thank you for your interest! We agree with your comments. While we are in the world of hypothetical assumptions, we need to achieve more scientific and sound conclusions. We will move forward! Thank you for your mark!

Truly yours,

Pavel Poluian and Dmitry Lichargin,

Siberian Federal University.

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Edwin Eugene Klingman wrote on May. 17, 2020 @ 20:06 GMT
Dear Pavel and Dmitry,

Thank you for your interesting comment and analysis of my essay. I agree that there are not many ethers but one ether, and hypothesize that it is the universal gravitational field that light propagates in. Unlike the ether expected by Michelson-Morley, it is not universally homogeneous, but locally defines a preferred frame, in conflict with Einstein’s...

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Author Pavel Vadimovich Poluian replied on May. 18, 2020 @ 04:49 GMT
Dear Dr. Klingman!

Thanks for the interesting answer! We are glad that our thoughts coincide and we agree with your comments. The expulsion of ether from physics, we think, was also dictated by ideological considerations. After all, the "luminiferous ether" provides a scientific basis for occult knowledge - etheric bodies, spiritualism, contacts with spirits, etc. After all, if consciousness is an electromagnetic process in the brain, there is a basis for transferring this process to ether in its pure form))) Good luck! Thank you for your courtesy!

Truly yours,

Pavel Poluian and Dmitry Lichargin,

Siberian Federal University.

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Christian Corda wrote on May. 18, 2020 @ 07:54 GMT
Pavel Poluian and Dmitry Lichargin,

You wrote an interesting and provocative Essay, have my congrats. I did not know Feynman's chess metaphor, thanks for pointing out it. Your definition 3 that "all elements of a given set have a peculiarity: if one element is REAL, all other elements of the set are UNREAL" recalls me the collapse of the wave function in quantum mechanics. Your final statement on "the formation of a special non-classical ontology." is strong and ambitious. In general, I found your Essay intriguing and deserving the highest score. Good luck in the contest!

Cheers, Ch.

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Christian Corda wrote on May. 18, 2020 @ 07:55 GMT
Dears Pavel Poluian and Dmitry Lichargin,

You wrote an interesting and provocative Essay, have my congrats. I did not know Feynman's chess metaphor, thanks for pointing out it. Your definition 3 that "all elements of a given set have a peculiarity: if one element is REAL, all other elements of the set are UNREAL" recalls me the collapse of the wave function in quantum mechanics. Your final statement on "the formation of a special non-classical ontology." is strong and ambitious. In general, I found your Essay intriguing and deserving the highest score. Good luck in the contest!

Cheers, Ch.

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Author Pavel Vadimovich Poluian replied on May. 18, 2020 @ 08:50 GMT
Dear Professor Christian Corda!

Thank you for your interest in our essay and valuable comments. Judging by the time, the chess metaphor was first introduced by Eddington (he was fond of chess). If you use this metaphor, you can say that all the pieces removed from the board fall into the Black Hole.))) The chess pieces disappear into Nothingness and the game ends)))))

Thank you for your courtesy. Thank you for your appreciation. You may also be interested in our other works. Pavel Poluian published in Russia a monograph "Death of dark matter: philosophical principles in physical knowledge".



You can download the file at Internet.

You may find it interesting.

Truly yours,

Pavel Poluian and Dmitry Lichargin,

Siberian Federal University.

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Bala Subramanian wrote on May. 18, 2020 @ 09:42 GMT
Interesting approach to understand our reality. In my view a simple algorithm to compare self with all the rest by everyone, since everyone is capable of understanding only the self and nothing else, might result in a collection of data sets that might lead to some cognitive outcomes.

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Author Pavel Vadimovich Poluian replied on May. 18, 2020 @ 12:47 GMT
Thanks for the comment. I recall the cave of Plato ... And there is a Plato algorithm - exit the cave! I wish you a successful journey to the light!

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adel sadeq wrote on May. 18, 2020 @ 16:55 GMT
Dear Pavel ,

Maybe my essay will be an interest to you, since it is based on computer programming and you get many known physics. Based also on a simple logic of A>B or A

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adel sadeq replied on May. 18, 2020 @ 16:57 GMT
Not sure why there is some error in the posting but here is the link

Reality is a simple mathematical structure literally

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Author Pavel Vadimovich Poluian replied on May. 18, 2020 @ 17:14 GMT
Yes, thanks. Now I’ll look and give a rating.

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Author Pavel Vadimovich Poluian replied on May. 18, 2020 @ 17:27 GMT
Thank you for your interesting essay. I have already read it and evaluated it earlier-very positively. Nevertheless, even if you admit indisputable cogency of all this reasoning, you will remain in the sphere of philosophical metaphysics. To fall outside the limits one needs to find the means of expressing new ontology in the language of universally acknowledged scientific theories. The path you have chosen is very difficult. I wish you success on this path!

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