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RECENT POSTS IN THIS TOPIC

Vladimir Fedorov: on 5/18/20 at 11:41am UTC, wrote Dear Marts, I greatly appreciated your work and discussion. I am very glad...

Peter Jackson: on 5/15/20 at 15:42pm UTC, wrote Marts, Thank you kindly. We certainly are on the 'same page'. I hope my...

barry gilbert: on 5/15/20 at 11:57am UTC, wrote G’day Marts I thank you for your kind comments, I enjoyed your...

Marts Liena: on 5/15/20 at 4:47am UTC, wrote Thanks ever so much for your comments. I searched out the missing link by...

Marts Liena: on 5/15/20 at 4:37am UTC, wrote Dear Boris Dzhechko, Thanks for your comments. At first reading your essay...

Vesselin Petkov: on 5/15/20 at 3:24am UTC, wrote Dear Marts, Thanks for the discussion (and quotes) of Einstein's changing...

Dizhechko Semyonovich: on 5/13/20 at 10:40am UTC, wrote Dear Marts, indeed, Descartes introduced ether into consideration to fill...

Peter Jackson: on 5/12/20 at 22:25pm UTC, wrote Marts, Great essay, flagged up by a co-author as we closely agree. (from...


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FQXi FORUM
September 17, 2021

CATEGORY: Undecidability, Uncomputability, and Unpredictability Essay Contest (2019-2020) [back]
TOPIC: Is the aether undecidable? by Marts Liena [refresh]
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Author Marts Liena wrote on Mar. 31, 2020 @ 16:56 GMT
Essay Abstract

In this essay I ask whether the question of the aether is done and dusted, as mainstream physics has considered it so for over a century, or whether there is a chance for resurrection after the discovery of the Higgs boson, and hence indirectly, the Higgs field which can be interpreted as an aether of sorts. I pose the question “what if one of the postulates of special relativity has been misunderstood and misrepresented?” and try to answer it in light of modern understanding the motion of the Earth through space, with respect to aberration, relativity’s time dilation and length contraction, and variability in the speed of light in various optical dielectric mediums relative to inertial frames of reference. I conclude the essay with notes on how Einstein himself thought about the aether throughout his life.

Author Bio

Amateur sleuth, self taught philosopher currently working on a new quantum theory of gravity involving aether.

Download Essay PDF File

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Satyavarapu Naga Parameswara Gupta wrote on Apr. 1, 2020 @ 07:07 GMT
Dear Prof Marts Liena,

Thank you for giving a nice essay on Aether, your words.......... Space can be the Newtonian mathematical 3-D shoebox that holds the aether and material objects, or sometimes space is defined as the contents of the shoebox: the vacuum or the aether. ..................

Was it stated by Newton, that Aether is required?

Best Regards

=snp

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Lachlan Cresswell replied on Apr. 2, 2020 @ 12:11 GMT
Dear SNP Gupta,

Thank you for your comments.

To quote Newton: “Absolute space, in its own nature, without regard to anything external, remains always similar and immovable. Relative space is some movable dimension or measure of the absolute spaces; which our senses determine by its position to bodies: and which is vulgarly taken for immovable space ... Absolute motion is the translation of a body from one absolute place into another: and relative motion, the translation from one relative place into another”



These notions of Newton imply that absolute space and time do not depend upon physical events, but are a backdrop or stage setting within which physical phenomena occur. Thus, every object has an absolute state of motion relative to absolute space, so that an object must be either in a state of absolute rest, or moving at some absolute speed.

Newton was most prescient when he said "Doth not this aethereal medium in passing out of water, glass, crystal, and other compact and dense bodies in empty spaces, grow denser and denser by degrees, and by that means refract the rays of light not in a point, but by bending them gradually in curve lines? ...Is not this medium much rarer within the dense bodies of the Sun, stars, planets and comets, than in the empty celestial space between them? And in passing from them to great distances, doth it not grow denser and denser perpetually, and thereby cause the gravity of those great bodies towards one another, and of their parts towards the bodies; every body endeavouring to go from the denser parts of the medium towards the rarer?"

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Author Marts Liena replied on Apr. 2, 2020 @ 12:23 GMT
Dear SNP,

Thanks for your question, which appears to have been answered. I didn't realise that Newton also had discussed the aether, but as the quote above shows, the great man thought deeply on it. He almost grabs my essay idea of variable permittivity, and Einstein's VSL in this quote. (Thanks Lachlan)

Warm regards

Marts

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Otis Lamont Frost wrote on Apr. 2, 2020 @ 00:23 GMT
Thank you for a very interesting paper. Thank you for clearly explaining a concept that, as you note, «has a long history with many twists and turns »!

You also write « experiments ... have so far been interpreted that no experiment has been able to show the absolute motion of the observer ». Here, you were probably referring to absolute translational motion. However, I wonder if you agree that the Michelson-Gale experiment showed the absolute rotational motion of an observer on the surface of the Earth? Michelson showed that his measured results in this experiment were consistent with the Earth rotating about its polar axis in a stationary aether. Yet, Relativity treats this as a Sagnac experiment, explaining the results as a time dilation effect experienced by light traveling in opposite directions around a rotating loop. This again apparently leaves the aether undecided, as you point out, yet absolute motion seems to be present in the sense that the observer is rotating, not the universe. Does this affect your arguments in any way?

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Author Marts Liena replied on Apr. 3, 2020 @ 01:33 GMT
Dear Otis,

Thank you for your insightful questions. I will answer your first question simply by agreeing with you, with a caveat on the meaning of absolute, a word which should be dropped from your question.

The Sagnac effect, the Kennedy-Thorndike experiment, the Michelson-Gale-Pearson loop interferometer are all examples of a class of phenomena that has been shown is based on the...

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Edwin Eugene Klingman replied on Apr. 3, 2020 @ 18:50 GMT
Dear Marts Liena,

Thank you for a well written, well reasoned, informative essay. I agree with most of your observations/opinions and was unfamiliar with a number of recent papers and experiments that you referenced.

You are clearly correct that Einstein, considered to have abolished ether with special relativity, restored the concept, in varying ways, but essentially viewing “fields as physical states of space”, and more specifically “there is no space absent field”.

I have for several years considered ether as that which light propagates through. I fully agree with Einstein that

Space without ether is unthinkable; for in such space there would not only be no propagation of light...”

I hope you will read and comment on my essay which is related to yours:

Deciding on the nature of time and space

In your response to Otis, above, on the Michelson-Gale experiments you say:

The biggest sticking point with respect to special relativity is that rotating frames of reference are used in this class of experiment, not the inertial frames required by Einstein’s 1905 theory.

That is an extremely important point. I am becoming convinced that ‘ontology is all.’ Einstein clearly formulated a 4D-ontology based on inertial frames. It is not at all clear that rotation and gravitation fit in 4D, despite that special relativity is freely extended into these non-inertial frames whenever it is deemed necessary.

Anyway, I fully agree with you about the issue of ether “it definitely is not undecidable!”

Thanks again for your essay and good luck.

Edwin Eugene Klingman

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Edwin Eugene Klingman replied on Apr. 3, 2020 @ 18:53 GMT
Fixed link, I hope:

Deciding on the nature of time and space

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John-Erik Persson wrote on Apr. 5, 2020 @ 15:28 GMT
Marts

Many thanks for this interesting paper.

It seems as we both agree with Einstein when he said that:

physics without an ether is unthinkable

Einstein's abolishing of the ether was the greatest sin in physics. Einstein himself realized this. So, this must be very painful for Einstein.

With best regards from _______________ John-Erik

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John-Erik Persson replied on Apr. 5, 2020 @ 15:43 GMT
Marts

Perhaps you are interested in this article.

Regards ______________ John-Erik

How Science Became Fiction

Regards _______ John-Erik

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Author Marts Liena replied on Apr. 8, 2020 @ 07:39 GMT
Dear John-Erik,

Thank you for your comments. I am glad we both agree on the necessity of an aether. A colleague of mine has formulated an aether theory that provides a new theory of gravity that is different from all the others. I notice you commented on Fatio, a genius who was well ahead of his time. Tom van Flandern got me interested in gravity some decades ago, and I am well versed in most gravitation theories, except for QLG. Here I have only read Carlo Rovelli's book which I enjoyed very much, although I do not always agree with him.

I will read "How Science became fiction" and then maybe we can talk about it.

Regards,

Marts

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Israel Perez wrote on Apr. 10, 2020 @ 21:53 GMT
Dear Marts

Interesting essay you have written, I enjoyed it very much. It is interesting that I also cite Robert Laughlin in my essay. I was not aware of Wilcek's. In my essay and a couple of references related to this topic: The preferred reference frame reloaded and On the experimental determination of the one-way speed of light I deal with these issues. The paper on the preferred frame was a forth prize winner in the 2012 FQXi contest. I would be glad to hear some feedback from you.

Best Regards

Israel

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Author Marts Liena replied on Apr. 19, 2020 @ 02:49 GMT
Dear Israel,

Thank you for your kind comments on my essay. I very much enjoyed reading both your FQXI essays as they philosophically resonate with the way I think. I also enjoyed an analysis of MMX that you wrote years ago.

In your paper “On the experimental determination of the one-way speed of light” you conclude …”we have justified with some examples why the two...

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Dizhechko Boris Semyonovich wrote on Apr. 25, 2020 @ 11:52 GMT
Dear Marts Liena, Your very thorough investigation of Aether undecidable has greatly interested me, since I usually highly appreciate an essay that talks about ether, which is close to my topic about the neocartesian generalization of modern physics, based on the identity of Descartes' space and matter. According to this identity, space is matter, and matter is space that moves relative to itself, since it is matter. Ether in this convention is a synonym for matter and, conversely, matter is a synonym for ether. The ether, which is matter, creates infinite space and time. That's right, I suppose, we should think.

              I invite you to discuss my essay, in which I show the successes of the neocartesian generalization of modern physics, based on the identity of Descartes’ space and matter: “The transformation of uncertainty into certainty. The relationship of the Lorentz factor with the probability density of states. And more from a new Cartesian generalization of modern physics. by Dizhechko Boris Semyonovich ".

      At the very beginning of the essay, I repeat twice the idea that rectilinear motion, in essence, is a circular motion of an infinitely large radius and, if this radius is reduced, the laws of motion of the theory of relativity will go over to the laws of quantum mechanics.

Further, mathematical formulas follow that only spoil my essay, but without them in any way. I will be pleased if you catch their main meaning and bless me for the further generalization of modern physics. I give high ratings to those who visit my page and leave her comment on it regarding the neo-Cartesian generalization of modern physics, even if they did not agree.

Visit my essay:

FQXi Boris Dzhechko

Regards, Dizhechko Boris

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Author Marts Liena replied on Apr. 26, 2020 @ 07:13 GMT
Dear Dizhechko Boris,

Thanks for your comments. I haven't read your essay yet but I will schedule it soon. Re your comment "According to this identity, space is matter, and matter is space that moves relative to itself, since it is matter. Ether in this convention is a synonym for matter and, conversely, matter is a synonym for ether. The ether, which is matter, creates infinite space and time."

I would generally agree.In my picture of the Universe there is only aether and matter (two different kinds of particles) and together they make up all of space (no voids larger than the scale of the aether particle). Being forms of energy they also "create" time. (Well technically humans create time, particles only respond to forces by way of motion and some neat tricks of energy transference by Maxwellian waves). However I do not believe in infinite space as I think the Universe is bounded. I am old school and do not believe in more than 3 spatial dimensions (like Descartes).

I'll look forward to reading your essay and posting some more on your page

Regards

Marts

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Dizhechko Boris Semyonovich replied on May. 13, 2020 @ 10:40 GMT
Dear Marts, indeed, Descartes introduced ether into consideration to fill the voids remaining between the large particles. However, when he claims that nature is afraid of emptiness and, if it is formed somewhere according to the will of God, then its walls are instantly closed - this means that everything, including ether, is matter. The point here is different, as neocartesian physics draws attention to, in his era it was not assumed that the speed of any movement is limited by the speed of light and therefore the walls of the resulting void do not close together instantly, but exist for a short period of time sufficient to be real - these are and can be attributed to the ether, which moves matter. I appreciate your essay and wish you success.

Regards, Boris Dzhechko

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Author Marts Liena replied on May. 15, 2020 @ 04:37 GMT
Dear Boris Dzhechko,

Thanks for your comments. At first reading your essay ideas seem very novel, much like those of a former colleague of mine. He has noted in various posts to essayist blogs on this site that matter and aether cannot be seperated, and that it is aether that forms the volume of space that we humans experience. His gravity idea has vortexs of aether pulling matter together. I am wondering how this can be mathematically formulated from a string perspective.

You seem to have established a mathematical framework around your ideas quite well.

I appreciate your comments on my aether essay and wish you success with yours.

Marts

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Peter Jackson wrote on May. 12, 2020 @ 22:25 GMT
Marts,

Great essay, flagged up by a co-author as we closely agree. (from my 2011 essay onwards). I've long worked on this but you still found pertinent quotes etc. I'd missed. Well done, & thanks! More recently I've studied the bright light it shines on ALL other Physics; last years essay shockingly deriving a classical mechanism for QM, and a recent publication deriving a Higgs Condensate...

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Author Marts Liena replied on May. 15, 2020 @ 04:47 GMT
Thanks ever so much for your comments. I searched out the missing link by looking you up on arxiv and found "Resolution of Kantor and Babcock-Bergman Emission Theory Anomalies". Wow, had I known about your work I would have surely referenced you, as I should also do with Israel Perez's Aether work.

It seems as though we are on the same page, but I defer to your much deeper probings. And I feel more confident now that the matter will be decided in the hopefully near future.

I am currently reading your iqbit essay from a few years ago. I admire your ground breaking work!

Best wishes,

Marts Liena

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Peter Jackson replied on May. 15, 2020 @ 15:42 GMT
Marts,

Thank you kindly. We certainly are on the 'same page'. I hope my 'discrete field' model will help your work. I was surprised & pleased to find it matched Einsteins own final ('52) re-interpretation that all have ignored. The key is in removing the speed modulation function resolving all the issues, from the condensate. Did you read the latest published Higgs Condensate paper referred in the essay? Also read C C Su 2001.

Your comprehensive analysis was also certainly worth the top score and I've just applied it. That now takes it well above mine to 7, so I hope you'll return the compliment, to less effect as mine has more scores (inclusing a number of 1's, from near neighbours I assume!)

Very best

Peter

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Vesselin Petkov wrote on May. 15, 2020 @ 03:24 GMT
Dear Marts,

Thanks for the discussion (and quotes) of Einstein's changing views of the aether.

Best wishes,

Vesselin

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barry gilbert wrote on May. 15, 2020 @ 11:57 GMT
G’day Marts

I thank you for your kind comments, I enjoyed your thoughtful discussions on both the variable speed of light (VSL) and the aether. I have no problem with VSL however I have no sensible comments to make about an aether that is Lorentz invariant or relies on particles or provides a medium for electromagnetic (EM) fields or waves to propagate in. For the moment I have chosen to accept “action at a distance at light speed.” Having said this I believe in an aether that is comprised of EM fields and waves emanating from observable astronomical objects, along with the gravity fields and waves from the same astronomical objects. Such an aether has the reference frame of the fixed stars and we are moving through it, the CMBR which Is black-body radiation from dust in the intergalactic medium and has the same reference frame as the aether, in fact, It is a component of the aether. Zero-point radiation (ZPR) Is also a component of our new observable aether.

This new aether incorporates the Mach principle and Newton bucket of water thought experiment.

The ZPR must be Lorentz invariant also. This Is achieved by putting a cap on the maximum energy that the ZPR can contain, approximately equal to the maximum energy OF cosmic rays that we have ever detected. This aether also contains a lot of metal and carbon dust emitted by supernovae, which can result in changes in the permeability and permittivity of the aether, and therefore bend and focus light, as well as influencing the VSL. This dust can also contribute to non-Doppler red-shift, as well as dimming the standard candles, therefore, influencing dark energy calculations.

This Machian Newtonian aether is not intended to compete or replace any other forms of aether but could complement other aethers.

Good luck

Barry

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Vladimir Nikolaevich Fedorov wrote on May. 18, 2020 @ 11:41 GMT
Dear Marts,

I greatly appreciated your work and discussion. I am very glad that you are not thinking in abstract patterns.

Gravity is a dynamic process. For example, Michelson and Morley established that the earth moves relative to the medium of light propagation at a speed of 8 km / s; consequently, a gravitational potential equal to the square of this speed is formed on the Earth. In my work, this is all explained in detail:

Quantum pilot-wave mechanism for the formation of gravitational potentials. (2019)

While the discussion lasted, I wrote an article: “Practical guidance on calculating resonant frequencies at four levels of diagnosis and inactivation of COVID-19 coronavirus”, due to the high relevance of this topic. The work is based on the practical solution of problems in quantum mechanics, presented in the essay FQXi 2019-2020 “Universal quantum laws of the universe to solve the problems of unsolvability, computability and unpredictability”.

I hope that my modest results of work will provide you with information for thought.

Warm Regards, `

Vladimir

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