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What Is “Fundamental”
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Wandering Towards a Goal
How can mindless mathematical laws give rise to aims and intention?
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Trick or Truth: The Mysterious Connection Between Physics and Mathematics
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How Should Humanity Steer the Future?
January 9, 2014 - August 31, 2014
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It From Bit or Bit From It
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Which of Our Basic Physical Assumptions Are Wrong?
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Is Reality Digital or Analog?
November 2010 - February 2011
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What's Ultimately Possible in Physics?
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The Nature of Time
August - December 2008
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RECENT POSTS IN THIS TOPIC

Christine Dantas: on 5/19/20 at 8:35am UTC, wrote Dear Cristinel, Thank you very much for your positive review of my essay....

Cristinel Stoica: on 5/13/20 at 16:27pm UTC, wrote Dear Christine, It was a pleasure to read your essay, it is innovative and...

Christine Dantas: on 5/9/20 at 10:28am UTC, wrote Thank you, and I wish you good luck in the contest. I hope to read a...

Michael muteru: on 5/6/20 at 7:19am UTC, wrote hi christian. nice work. like your philosophical work.youve slotted...

Christine Dantas: on 4/18/20 at 9:55am UTC, wrote Thank you for your comment. If your discovery refutes many of my...

John Crowell: on 4/8/20 at 17:07pm UTC, wrote Christine I recently revised (added to) my initial essay. So be sure to...

John Crowell: on 4/8/20 at 17:02pm UTC, wrote Christine I enjoyed your essay and I enjoyed your thinking process. I have...

Christine Dantas: on 4/3/20 at 17:22pm UTC, wrote Thanks for your comment, it is appreciated. Best wishes!


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FQXi FORUM
September 19, 2021

CATEGORY: Undecidability, Uncomputability, and Unpredictability Essay Contest (2019-2020) [back]
TOPIC: Metadynamics by Christine Cordula Dantas [refresh]
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Author Christine Cordula Dantas wrote on Feb. 27, 2020 @ 19:08 GMT
Essay Abstract

We present the hypothesis that a physical counterpart to metamathematics can be constructed in a meaningful way, which we term "interpretative metadynamics" or simply "metadynamics". We illustrate this idea by devising a map between logic and ergodic theory, hence suggesting that results in both fields can be fundamentally interrelated. Our mapping implies the existence of peculiar limitations on what can be known in classical and quantum dynamical systems. We suggest a set of ontological arguments, one of which implying that certain limits of provability in formal axiomatic systems correspond, in metadynamics, to an associated physical layer which is not mathematically expressible.

Author Bio

Christine C. Dantas has an undergraduate degree in Data Processing Technology (PUC-RJ/Brazil, 1991), BS in Astronomy (UFRJ/Brazil, 1993), MSc in Astrophysics (INPE/Brazil, 1996) and PhD in Astrophysics (INPE/Brazil, 2001). She is interested in all areas of science and philosophy. Scientific papers can be downloaded at http://arxiv.org/a/dantas_c_1 .

Download Essay PDF File

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Jack James wrote on Feb. 27, 2020 @ 22:04 GMT
A wonderful paper Christine, very much in line with some of my speculation, in particular taking an approach linking ontology with physical theory, that I completely agree with. When our experimental vices surely end, work in precisely this vein will be the future of a new physics.

Ultimately, in a super-Hilbertian way, we might reach a combined formal language encompassing math, physics and philosophical insight.

I liked this, reminded me of my amalgamated sleuths:



"But this “physical incompleteness” is not just the reflection of a mathematical incompleteness for describing a physical law, but the realization of physical laws that cannot be described mathematically."

Best

Jack

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Author Christine Cordula Dantas replied on Mar. 12, 2020 @ 13:40 GMT
Thanks for your comment!

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H.H.J. Luediger wrote on Feb. 28, 2020 @ 19:14 GMT
Christine,

there are phenomena (e.g. falling apples) and physical theories (e.g. Newton's laws) which according to Gödel are "in HARMONY" with one another. In 1.) you say "The human mind has the ability to disclose intricate mathematical structures, and to use them for DESCRIBING, with a high degree of agreement, the physical world." Then, however, you continue saying that it is not clear why nature follows mathematical laws, which puts in question the assertion that mathematical structures DESCRIBE the physical world. And indeed, nowhere in the philosophy of science you will find clarification what exactly DESCRIPTION is or means. While traditionally the term is associated with reductionism, your essay tries to apply it in the other direction, i.e. emergentism.

But what if Gödel - knowingly or unknowingly - hit the nail on the head? Could that mysterious relation between nature (the real world) and math simply be HARMONY or, as I call it, orthogonality or Absolute non-falseness?

Heinz

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Author Christine Cordula Dantas replied on Mar. 12, 2020 @ 13:44 GMT
I do not think that my ideas conform to a single philosophical line, but thanks for your comment.

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David Brown wrote on Feb. 29, 2020 @ 12:44 GMT
"Here, "initial conditions" are understood as the initial (Big Bang) singularity, which we expect to be resolved by a quantum gravity theory ..." (p. 7, "Metadynamics). Is something seriously wrong with Big Bang cosmology? Please google "louis marmet physics".

I conjecture that the following is a work of genius:

Pipino, Giuseppe. "Evidences for Varying Speed of Light with Time." Journal of High Energy Physics, Gravitation and Cosmology 5, no. 2 (2019): 395-411

Am I wrong? I predict that the Big Bang shall soon be replaced by Wolfram's Reset.

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Author Christine Cordula Dantas replied on Mar. 12, 2020 @ 13:45 GMT
I do not desire to discuss the paper you mention, but thanks for you comment.

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Wilhelmus de Wilde de Wilde wrote on Mar. 1, 2020 @ 09:29 GMT
Thank you for your inspiring ideas Christine.

I like the broad views of your thinking, maybe you like mine too.

https://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/3411

good luck in the cotest

Wilhelmus de Wilde

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Author Christine Cordula Dantas replied on Mar. 12, 2020 @ 13:46 GMT
Thanks, I will read selected essays opportunely. Good luck!

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Jochen Szangolies wrote on Mar. 4, 2020 @ 17:07 GMT
Dear Christine,

your notion of 'metadynamics' is an intriguing one. The correspondence between logic, physical systems, and computer programs has been remarked upon before, perhaps most well-worked out in Baez' 'Rosetta Stone'-paper (https://arxiv.org/abs/0903.03409), where he proposes a categorical equivalence between Feynman diagrams, cobordisms, proofs in logic, and computer programs. However, I do not recall any attempt, in that paper, to fold the correspondence back in on itself---to find an equivalent to logic talking about itself within Feynman diagrams, for instance.

I also like your idea that one might get physical laws out of metadynamics---as fixed points, perhaps, of dynamics applied to dynamics, maybe in a way similar to how Löb's theorem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%B6b%27s_theorem) can be used to construct modal fixed points, the most famous of which is the Gödel statement itself, equivalent (in this fixed-point sense) to the inconsistency of arithmetic.

However, I believe the correspondence is usually drawn a bit differently from the way you frame it---one takes the axioms to be something like the initial state of the system (sort of like the input into a program), then proofs as parallel to the dynamics (the computation), with theorems (truths) coming out at the end (final states). This then leads to something like my proposal, in which what 'comes out at the end' may be subject to undecidability---thus leading to the unpredictability of measurement outcomes, as in quantum mechanics.

Anyway, thanks for an enjoyable essay. I wish you the best of luck in this contest!

Cheers

Jochen

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Author Christine Cordula Dantas replied on Mar. 12, 2020 @ 13:48 GMT
Thanks. Your comments are informative and appreciated.

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Satyavarapu Naga Parameswara Gupta wrote on Mar. 4, 2020 @ 20:41 GMT
Dr Dantas,

Very nice work on Metamathematics and metadynamics…

Undecidability, Uncomputability, and Unpredictability are very much undesirable properties and out-comes of any theory. That theory might have developed by a very reputed person or by a group of well-educated and knowledgeable persons. There is no point of poring resources, money and highly educated man power into that theory when that theory is failing on above three points.

In my essay just elaborated what should be the freedom available to an author when the “ real open thinking” is supported. Have a look at my essay please.

“A properly deciding, Computing and Predicting new theory’s Philosophy”

=snp.gupta

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Satyavarapu Naga Parameswara Gupta replied on Mar. 4, 2020 @ 21:10 GMT
Hi,

If you are replying any of comments I posted on your essay, I request you to post a copy or intimation that you posted reply, on my essay

“A properly deciding, Computing and Predicting new theory’s Philosophy”

also,so that I can continue discussion….

Best Regards

=snp.gupta

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Author Christine Cordula Dantas replied on Mar. 12, 2020 @ 13:48 GMT
Thanks, I will read selected essays opportunely. Good luck!

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Member Sabine Hossenfelder wrote on Mar. 11, 2020 @ 05:00 GMT
Hi Christine,

(Another) wonderful essay of yours, both well-written and interesting! I wish you good luck :)

Sabine

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Author Christine Cordula Dantas replied on Mar. 12, 2020 @ 13:50 GMT
Thanks, Sabine, and I will be reading your essay opportunely. Good luck too!

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Flavio Del Santo wrote on Mar. 13, 2020 @ 22:33 GMT
Dear Christine (if I may),

thanks for a well-written and very interesting essay. The ideas on metadynamics you expounded are quite inspiring.

I would be most interest if you could find some similarities with your ideas in the general framework I propose in my essay.

Meanwhile, congrats and good luck with the contest.

best,

Flavio

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Author Christine Cordula Dantas replied on Apr. 3, 2020 @ 17:20 GMT
Thanks! I will be reading your essay opportunely. Good luck with the contest too.

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Stefan Weckbach wrote on Mar. 23, 2020 @ 17:32 GMT
Hi Christine,

you developed some deep ideas about the 3 "Uns" and I think your ideas are more than analogies.

You wrote

"Hence the limits of provability in formal axiomatic systems would correspond in metadynamics to an associated layer of physical reality which is not mathematically expressible".

I come to the same inference in my essay. Although some would think this is the end of any proper description of reality, i would think it must not - to the contrary.

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Author Christine Cordula Dantas replied on Apr. 3, 2020 @ 17:21 GMT
Thanks for your comment!

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Steve Dufourny wrote on Apr. 3, 2020 @ 16:56 GMT
Hello Dr Dantas,

Very relevant general analysis and innovative extrapolation. I liked your metadynamics like a conceptual space of physical attributes that are self-referential, and symmetries related to these attributes lead to laws.

I see so many convergences with the topological spaces, euclidian spaces,and lie Groups and derivatives more the 3D spheres if they are the foundamental mathematical and physical objects of course but I cannot affirm. The points of geometrodynamics or the strings can maybe be conjectured if you analyse deeper the goentrizations and topologies more the rankings of fields and matters. The maths and this metadynamics seem relevant for our physics if they are well harmonised with our pure determinism. Very relevant essay, one of my favorites, you are innovative and it is essential, I wish you all the best in this Contest.

Best Regards

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Author Christine Cordula Dantas replied on Apr. 3, 2020 @ 17:22 GMT
Thanks for your comment, it is appreciated. Best wishes!

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John David Crowell wrote on Apr. 8, 2020 @ 17:02 GMT
Christine I enjoyed your essay and I enjoyed your thinking process. I have a “recent discovery” that you may want to use to adjust your hypothesis. This “discovery” is introduced in my essay—Clarification of Physics—-. What it introduces is a new Successful Self Creation theory and a new “lowest level of creation”. In reading your essay I was struck by how this lowest level is your ...associated layer of physical reality which is not mathematically expressible.—and the — (yet to be uncovered) extension of logical systems”. However, in my essay appendix, I show that this level is mathematically expressible. It is the lowest level that initially associates physical reality and mathematics. This association carries through its scale up to become the mathematical/universe that I discovered. This lowest level is also the lowest level that “associates” math, physics, the rest of science, philosophy - logic and reason, and religion.

This discovery refutes many of your conclusions. However, the inclusion of this discovery in your excellent thinking about meta- correlations should lead to results that “mirrow ? this is a new term for me” the actual creation of the mathematical-physical universe. It can also be extended to the other disciplines -philosophy etc. I hope you read my essay and comment. If you have any questions, put them in your comments or e mail me. John Crowell

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John David Crowell replied on Apr. 8, 2020 @ 17:07 GMT
Christine I recently revised (added to) my initial essay. So be sure to read and comment on the current essay. John

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Author Christine Cordula Dantas replied on Apr. 18, 2020 @ 09:55 GMT
Thank you for your comment. If your discovery refutes many of my conclusions, I will then learn where my failure resides, thank you for your corrections. Best,

Christine

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Michael muteru wrote on May. 6, 2020 @ 07:19 GMT
hi christian. nice work. like your philosophical work.youve slotted something on the human brain.great art piece.you have my high ratei did something on anthropocentric bias here https://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/3525 please read/rate.all the best in the contest.

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Author Christine Cordula Dantas replied on May. 9, 2020 @ 10:28 GMT
Thank you, and I wish you good luck in the contest. I hope to read a selection of essays opportunely, but I cannot make promises as to when I will be able to do that, as my life has become hectic in the past months. By the way, my name is Christine.

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Cristinel Stoica wrote on May. 13, 2020 @ 16:27 GMT
Dear Christine,

It was a pleasure to read your essay, it is innovative and with brilliant ideas. I like your idea of metadynamics, and I think it has an important foundational and philosophical potential. I particularly liked this:

We can prove the impossibility of proving something!.

Your

Proposition. We cannot deduce all the physical laws from the initial conditions of the Universe.

and your remark that

this "physical incompleteness" is not just the reflection of a mathematical incompleteness for describing a physical law, but the realization of physical laws that cannot be described mathematically

are thought provoking. I've seen several attempts to get out of the box of mathematics or the physical law itself, but they usually are very vague, while I think yours is by far more concrete and of better potential, by the combination of ergodic theory with no-go results like Gödel's. Although I hope we are not limited to know the physical laws, on the other hand I am a bit mysterian, so this wouldn't mind me that much :-)

Thank you for the great reading, and success with the contest!

Cheers,

Cristi

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Author Christine Cordula Dantas replied on May. 19, 2020 @ 08:35 GMT
Dear Cristinel,

Thank you very much for your positive review of my essay. I wish you good luck with the contest! I am still reading the essays, but I'm certain in advance that yours has a high value content.

Best,

Christine

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