If you are aware of an interesting new academic paper (that has been published in a peer-reviewed journal or has appeared on the arXiv), a conference talk (at an official professional scientific meeting), an external blog post (by a professional scientist) or a news item (in the mainstream news media), which you think might make an interesting topic for an FQXi blog post, then please contact us at forums@fqxi.org with a link to the original source and a sentence about why you think that the work is worthy of discussion. Please note that we receive many such suggestions and while we endeavour to respond to them, we may not be able to reply to all suggestions.

Please also note that we do not accept unsolicited posts and we cannot review, or open new threads for, unsolicited articles or papers. Requests to review or post such materials will not be answered. If you have your own novel physics theory or model, which you would like to post for further discussion among then FQXi community, then please add them directly to the "Alternative Models of Reality" thread, or to the "Alternative Models of Cosmology" thread. Thank you.

Please also note that we do not accept unsolicited posts and we cannot review, or open new threads for, unsolicited articles or papers. Requests to review or post such materials will not be answered. If you have your own novel physics theory or model, which you would like to post for further discussion among then FQXi community, then please add them directly to the "Alternative Models of Reality" thread, or to the "Alternative Models of Cosmology" thread. Thank you.

Forum Home

Introduction

Terms of Use

By using the FQXi Forum, you acknowledge reading and agree to abide
by the Terms of Use

RSS feed | RSS help

Introduction

Terms of Use

*Order posts by:*

*Display:*

RSS feed | RSS help

RECENT POSTS IN THIS TOPIC

**Jason Wolfe**: *on* 9/15/20 at 6:28am UTC, wrote Hi Peter, My conversation always arrive somewhere useful. I come up with...

**Jason Wolfe**: *on* 9/15/20 at 5:25am UTC, wrote I agree Steve. But this forum is not the easiest place to navigate, and I...

**Steve Dufourny**: *on* 9/14/20 at 20:13pm UTC, wrote Hi, Maybe it is better to put these ideas in the blogs about the...

**Jason Wolfe**: *on* 9/14/20 at 19:51pm UTC, wrote On another topic, if there was a connection between the brain and a spirit...

**Steve Dufourny**: *on* 9/14/20 at 12:05pm UTC, wrote Hi , I beleive that I have explained what I would say to Jason, I don t...

**Peter Morgan**: *on* 9/14/20 at 11:59am UTC, wrote I hesitate to say anything here that might be oil on this fire, but the...

**Steve Dufourny**: *on* 9/14/20 at 11:00am UTC, wrote I know well in all humility what is the SR and GR and the equations...

**Jason Wolfe**: *on* 9/14/20 at 10:52am UTC, wrote Steve, Did you ever study gravitational time dilation? ...

FQXi FORUM

September 28, 2021

CATEGORY:
Ultimate Reality
[back]

TOPIC: An algebraic approach to Koopman classical mechanics [refresh]

TOPIC: An algebraic approach to Koopman classical mechanics [refresh]

This is a place to discuss the article, "An algebraic approach to Koopman classical mechanics' by Peter Morgan, a physicist at Yale. It proposes a way to unify measurements in classical physics and quantum physics. Morgan has also written an accessible description of the work in *The Quantum Daily*.

Note that the author link, https://authors.elsevier.com/a/1aZC%7EopqoQN9, is good for free downloads only until April 2nd, so download it before then if you don't have institutional access. After that date, https://arxiv.org/abs/1901.00526 is quite close to the published version.

Any immediate reactions you may have to the pop-version on The Quantum Daily*may* be answered by the Annals of Physics article (which I've taken to calling AlgKoopman). There is a discussion of the measurement problem in Section 7.1, of the violation of Bell inequalities in Section 7.2, and of Schrödinger's cat in 7.3 (that last is somewhat whimsical, but hopefully the cat will consider it sufficiently respectful.) One strong reaction to the pop-version, from someone who has worked on the huge datasets generated by Very Long Baseline Interferometry (VLBI), was that the discussion of signal analysis is "barely coherent", so be warned that at least one expert considers me, to put it more kindly, not an expert on signal analysis, but judge for yourself. There have been 10,000+ page impressions of the pop-version, so you may have already seen some discussion of it (or, so far much less, of AlgKoopman) on Facebook.

There should be at least one more short article for The Quantum Daily, to discuss Section 7.1's mathematics, which is enough to unify "Collapse" and "No-collapse" interpretations of QM (yeah, there's inevitably some nuance to that.)

report post as inappropriate

Any immediate reactions you may have to the pop-version on The Quantum Daily

There should be at least one more short article for The Quantum Daily, to discuss Section 7.1's mathematics, which is enough to unify "Collapse" and "No-collapse" interpretations of QM (yeah, there's inevitably some nuance to that.)

report post as inappropriate

Can AlgKoopman help us think about Black holes and firewalls? If we can predict things that can be detected by instruments from basic principles.... That is Naturalness!

report post as inappropriate

report post as inappropriate

I have to hope that better understanding the relationship between the classical and quantum concepts of measurement, which I think with not too much of a stretch we can call a unification of theory *frameworks*, will help us make progress on a unification of the particular quantum and classical theories, the SM of particle physics and GR. We will have to see which ideas in the various attempts at such unifications will turn out to be useful. I think black holes will surely be a good approximation in any future physics, but I think the idea of a firewall is too specifically a next level approximation that includes many assumptions for it to survive without at least some modification.

To speak to specifics, albeit in such a compressed way that it may be incomprehensible unless you've internalized at least some of my article in Physica Scripta from 2019, I point you to Eq. (12) in AlgKoopman,

[equation]rho(e^{,jlambda_1hat F_{{bf f}_1}}cdots e^{,jlambda_nhat F_{{bf f}_n}}!){=}exp!Big[-!!Bigl(sum_{i=1}^nlambda_i{bf f}_i^*,!sum_{j=1}^nlambda_j{bf f}_jBigr)/2-!!!!!!!!!!sum_{quad 1le i

report post as inappropriate

To speak to specifics, albeit in such a compressed way that it may be incomprehensible unless you've internalized at least some of my article in Physica Scripta from 2019, I point you to Eq. (12) in AlgKoopman,

[equation]rho(e^{,jlambda_1hat F_{{bf f}_1}}cdots e^{,jlambda_nhat F_{{bf f}_n}}!){=}exp!Big[-!!Bigl(sum_{i=1}^nlambda_i{bf f}_i^*,!sum_{j=1}^nlambda_j{bf f}_jBigr)/2-!!!!!!!!!!sum_{quad 1le i

report post as inappropriate

That's not what the preview showed! Grrrrr. Aaaaannnnndddd I can't edit it.

Approximately what I said after the equation that screwed up was: The inner product (f,g) that's used in Eq. (12) can be replaced by any structure for which (f_i,f_j) is a positive semi-definite matrix, which doesn't necessarily have to be sesquilinear in f_i and f_j. If we can find a manifestly diffeomorphism invariant form (f,g), with f and g appropriately structured for a candidate geometry, then we have a candidate first approximation for a quantum gravity.

report post as inappropriate

Approximately what I said after the equation that screwed up was: The inner product (f,g) that's used in Eq. (12) can be replaced by any structure for which (f_i,f_j) is a positive semi-definite matrix, which doesn't necessarily have to be sesquilinear in f_i and f_j. If we can find a manifestly diffeomorphism invariant form (f,g), with f and g appropriately structured for a candidate geometry, then we have a candidate first approximation for a quantum gravity.

report post as inappropriate

"“Collapse” of the state is shown equivalent to a constraint on joint measurements."

How does this shift as we consider quantum systems of a very large size, say planets and stars. Decoherence is a check trick.

report post as inappropriate

How does this shift as we consider quantum systems of a very large size, say planets and stars. Decoherence is a check trick.

report post as inappropriate

The mathematics of decoherence is of course relevant in its context of tensor products as a model for idealized separate systems. The SEP begins its entry on decoherence with "Interference phenomena are a well-known and crucial aspect of quantum mechanics, famously exemplified by the two-slit experiment. There are situations, however, in which interference effects are artificially or spontaneously suppressed. The theory of decoherence is precisely the study of (spontaneous) interactions between a system and its environment that lead to such suppression of interference."

I think it's important to recognize, however, that the tensor product is not a natural structure for QFT. There is no idea of distinct systems in QFT except as an approximation, certainly not for interacting fields, and even the so-called free fields have nearest neighbor interactions. Those approximations become very good when we consider planets, but also even when we consider grains of sand.

report post as inappropriate

I think it's important to recognize, however, that the tensor product is not a natural structure for QFT. There is no idea of distinct systems in QFT except as an approximation, certainly not for interacting fields, and even the so-called free fields have nearest neighbor interactions. Those approximations become very good when we consider planets, but also even when we consider grains of sand.

report post as inappropriate

There are now three articles on The Quantum Daily:

Unifying Classical Physics and Quantum Physics Measurement

Unifying “Collapse” and “No-Collapse” Approaches to Quantum Physics

Breaking the Hold of Bell Inequalities

report post as inappropriate

Unifying Classical Physics and Quantum Physics Measurement

Unifying “Collapse” and “No-Collapse” Approaches to Quantum Physics

Breaking the Hold of Bell Inequalities

report post as inappropriate

Hi Peter, happy to see you on FQXi and that you share your ideas, great

report post as inappropriate

report post as inappropriate

Dear Peter, have you already thought to play with these koopman algebras and the entropy ?

report post as inappropriate

report post as inappropriate

Dear Steve,

I generally prefer to work with the collection of probability distributions associated with a given collection of measurements, because many quantities such as entropy are undefined for nontrivial quantum or random fields. [One could perhaps work with quantities such as the relative entropy between different states, but I haven't. Entropy is problematic, in any case, I think, because it's a property of a state, not a measurement result.] I think it's really important that we work with test functions as descriptions of measurements that are performed and of how we modulate measurement results, not with what's really there (such as the entropy of the state), because many aspects of the latter are not well-defined, even though the measurement results are well-defined except at singular points.

In any case, I've started to work again on what I had been working on before AlgKoopman, the problem of renormalization, or, rather, on how to construct interacting quantum and random fields in a well-defined way. AlgKoopman came out of that research in a natural way, but it's not my principal research direction.

report post as inappropriate

I generally prefer to work with the collection of probability distributions associated with a given collection of measurements, because many quantities such as entropy are undefined for nontrivial quantum or random fields. [One could perhaps work with quantities such as the relative entropy between different states, but I haven't. Entropy is problematic, in any case, I think, because it's a property of a state, not a measurement result.] I think it's really important that we work with test functions as descriptions of measurements that are performed and of how we modulate measurement results, not with what's really there (such as the entropy of the state), because many aspects of the latter are not well-defined, even though the measurement results are well-defined except at singular points.

In any case, I've started to work again on what I had been working on before AlgKoopman, the problem of renormalization, or, rather, on how to construct interacting quantum and random fields in a well-defined way. AlgKoopman came out of that research in a natural way, but it's not my principal research direction.

report post as inappropriate

I'm pleased to announce that Annals of Physics has selected "An algebraic approach to Koopman classical mechanics" as a Highlighted Article. There is a highlight post written by Rob Lea on the Annals of Physics website.

report post as inappropriate

report post as inappropriate

Congrats Peter, Frank Delplace of Facebook also for his article about the vicosity and several others also that I know, the annals of physics are well , you are good about the Koopman alg , regards

report post as inappropriate

report post as inappropriate

The only way you know you've made progress towards quantum gravity, is if you can come up with an experiment. But congratulations on your "algebraic approch to Koopman classical mechanics".

report post as inappropriate

report post as inappropriate

Thank you! I have to say that Quantum Gravity is definitely not my principal interest: I'm mostly interested in finding ways to rethink the conceptual issues in QM and in QFT, which I think AlgKoopman does in a more-or-less new way (if you read the introduction to AlgKoopman you'll see that almost everything in AlgKoopman has a precursor: Koopman, signal analysis, Wigner functions, Generalized Probability, contextuality, algebraic QM/QFT, ..., but I think they are put together in a way that I've not seen done elsewhere in the literature).

We'll hopefully know in five or ten years whether the way the ideas are put together in AlgKoopman help much or whether they just become more background noise. Still, my feeling is that anything that gives us a new way to understand the relationship between CM and QM might give someone a clue how to construct a different kind of quantum gravity, which hopefully we could test.

report post as inappropriate

We'll hopefully know in five or ten years whether the way the ideas are put together in AlgKoopman help much or whether they just become more background noise. Still, my feeling is that anything that gives us a new way to understand the relationship between CM and QM might give someone a clue how to construct a different kind of quantum gravity, which hopefully we could test.

report post as inappropriate

I wouldn't be so adversarial if I thought you work making real progress as opposed to spinning your collective wheels. Why don't you attempt to describe quantum gravity in terms of things we can already measure?

Why don't you try to explain gravity and spacetime curvature in terms of something that already behaves similar to spacetime?

If you can't come up with an actual experiment, then you may as well be talking about unicorns and rainbows, not physics.

report post as inappropriate

Why don't you try to explain gravity and spacetime curvature in terms of something that already behaves similar to spacetime?

If you can't come up with an actual experiment, then you may as well be talking about unicorns and rainbows, not physics.

report post as inappropriate

Hi Peter,

You should consider the possibility that the graviton really does exist. A graviton that expands from a point, at the speed of light, with a radius r = ct, would fill all space with spacetime geometry, inertial refernece frames, and virtual photons. You could say that you captured a graviton when you create quantum entangled photons. That would be your doorway to performing an experiment.

Best wishes,

JW

report post as inappropriate

You should consider the possibility that the graviton really does exist. A graviton that expands from a point, at the speed of light, with a radius r = ct, would fill all space with spacetime geometry, inertial refernece frames, and virtual photons. You could say that you captured a graviton when you create quantum entangled photons. That would be your doorway to performing an experiment.

Best wishes,

JW

report post as inappropriate

I got the idea of expanding gravitons from the derivation of special relativity.

https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/13498

4/time-dilation-confusion

Each inertial reference frame is created by gravitons that are expanding from a point, to a sphere with radius r = ct.

If there are gravitons being created constantly, at every point in space, and for every possible velocity, AND those gravitons are creating space and time, then the speed of light is invariant.

The spacetime interval also looks like an instantaneous condition of two gravitons expanding, with relative velocity of 0.

report post as inappropriate

https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/13498

4/time-dilation-confusion

Each inertial reference frame is created by gravitons that are expanding from a point, to a sphere with radius r = ct.

If there are gravitons being created constantly, at every point in space, and for every possible velocity, AND those gravitons are creating space and time, then the speed of light is invariant.

The spacetime interval also looks like an instantaneous condition of two gravitons expanding, with relative velocity of 0.

report post as inappropriate

Login or create account to post reply or comment.