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RECENT POSTS IN THIS TOPIC

Lee Bloomquist: on 12/8/18 at 0:58am UTC, wrote Our understanding of wave function collapse uses the language of...

Georgina Woodward: on 11/12/18 at 3:01am UTC, wrote Just shutting up and calculating won't do. The steps are; correctly...

Georgina Woodward: on 11/4/18 at 22:02pm UTC, wrote Specifically identifying and naming the issue is a significant advance. It...

Georgina Woodward: on 11/2/18 at 21:04pm UTC, wrote 'Category differentiation error' and 'category omission error' can come...

Georgina Woodward: on 11/2/18 at 20:07pm UTC, wrote These errors (identified in previous posts) could be called 'category...

Georgina Woodward: on 10/31/18 at 19:09pm UTC, wrote This problem is not exactly category error but is an error that involves...

Georgina Woodward: on 10/28/18 at 23:01pm UTC, wrote As an electron is only ever measured to have one location, under what...

Georgina Woodward: on 10/28/18 at 19:32pm UTC, wrote Steve, my aim is not to simplify the answer to why there is that stated...


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FQXi BLOGS
September 24, 2021

CATEGORY: Blog [back]
TOPIC: Space-time from Collapse of the Wave-function [refresh]
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Blogger Tejinder Pal Singh wrote on Sep. 9, 2018 @ 18:40 GMT
The world of large things such as tables, planets, stars and galaxies, is extremely different from the world of small things such as electrons, protons, atoms, and photons. The most striking difference is that a table is never found in more than one place at the same time, whereas as electron or an atom can be in many places at the same time. Why should there be this difference? After all, a table...

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Steve Agnew wrote on Sep. 15, 2018 @ 15:06 GMT
Singh has a really good approach for resolving the measurement issues by localizing a wavefunction with new noise constants, rC and tC. By adding a teeny tiny bit of noise to physical reality, Singh shows that wavefunctions will collapse even without an observer and so continuous spontaneous collapse (CSL) is quite hot right now, especially with the Smolin group at Perimeter.

Of course, the universe is already full of noise even without a new operator and its two new constants. For example, the orbit of an electron around a proton in hydrogen means that there are both charge and gravity fluctuations outside of the atom even without a new operator and constants.

In fact, at the characteristic radius, rC = 70 nm, between two hydrogens, the dispersion force of charge attraction equals the gravity force between the two neutral hydrogens. This rC depends on existing universe constants and likewise, a characteristic time tC= 3.9Byrs, comes from the ratio of gravity to charge at the hydrogen orbit.

So without any new constants, existing gravity noise in the universe is sufficient to collapse quantum wavefunctions without further ado. In fact, these values are consistent with the present state of CSL and show that future measurements will actually measure these fluctuations. However, the present physics already predicts that they exist and so measurement will simply be a confirmation and not any new physics...

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Marcel-Marie LeBel replied on Oct. 23, 2018 @ 04:15 GMT
Georgina, Steve,

Every bit out there exists and interacts with its own immediate vicinity. The notion of "table" or "universe" is an integration resulting from our own perceptual and mental fabrication. It is the conscious observer's privilege. There is no Big thing, just a "Big Picture". As with any picture, there is a camera, and we are it.

Please consider that in most cases, QM describes how the universe works (small scale), and GR describes how the universe appears to work (large scale).

Marcel,

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Georgina Woodward wrote on Oct. 1, 2018 @ 00:59 GMT
Hi Tejinder, Steve,

there is a category issue with the introductory comparison of the electron particle and table.For the electron to be in a location it must be a be-able rather than a probability distribution of states/values prior to selection of the singular defining measurement, For the table to be in a certain location it too must be a be-able, (which is constituted of be-able particles). However if talking of the object seen in space-time it is not a be-able but the product of processing of received EM radiation. It is not made of be-able particles, like the be-able table. What precisely is being compared is important.

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Georgina Woodward replied on Oct. 1, 2018 @ 01:41 GMT
If the location of a particular table in a conference room was mapped over several years a probability distribution for the table could be obtained. When the question is asked, 'where is the table?' One could refer to the probability distribution and say it doesn't have a singular location (Compare to electron). Or One could say, as a be-able is being considered ( not an EM radiation processing product or a probability distribution) it must be in a location but it is as yet undetermined by direct (interaction with) measurement.

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Georgina Woodward replied on Oct. 1, 2018 @ 02:14 GMT
Measurement by interaction with the object will give a space location and time when that was true (local, to table and measurer, clock time, which is very close to the -Now due to the extreme speed of light). Rather than spacetime generated from signal receipt and processing.

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Georgina Woodward replied on Oct. 1, 2018 @ 07:46 GMT
If the tables are pushed to the sides of the room between conferences and occupy the body of the room during conferences, there will be oscillation between the side locations and main body locations for the individual tables. If the conferences happen on a regular basis the oscillation will be regular. What will decide between most likely getting a side of room location or a main body of room location when a measurement is made is the choice of how that measurement is to be made. If it will coincide with maximum number of people present in the building or minimum number of people, for example. The addition of conference attendees will add slightly to the uncertainty of exact location that will be found as they may nudge or rearrange the tables slightly but are not the cause of the main body or side location (as the tables will likely have been arranged before their arrival and re-arranged after they leave).

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Marcel-Marie LeBel wrote on Oct. 2, 2018 @ 22:27 GMT
The precision about the actual position of the table can never be

greater than the actual size of the table, because everywhere on the table is 'table'.

This is why we have the uncertainty principle. We are dealing with particles whose sizes include both the particle and its associated wave,

i.e. their intrinsic motion.

For comparison, it is like estimating the position of a boat from its

actual size plus its wake.

Also, it goes without saying, that position and momentum (speed) are two conceptually opposite concepts. But if you insist, you have to accept this uncertainty.

Marcel,

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Lorraine Ford replied on Oct. 3, 2018 @ 08:26 GMT
Re "The precision about the actual position of the table can never be greater than the actual size of the table, because everywhere on the table is 'table'. This is why we have the uncertainty principle.":

Marcel, this is not what the uncertainty principle is about.

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Marcel-Marie LeBel wrote on Oct. 5, 2018 @ 00:23 GMT
Lorraine,

Thanks for the update. You are right. I typed up a big text ... but it wasn't convincing... even to me. I Wikied the uncertainty Principle (UP). .. And got some answers.

The UP describe an intrinsic property of nature which reflect into our measurements. The source of this uncertainty is my question.

1. you have the mathematical nature of waves and wave function

2. you have the constant turmoil of vacuum which create uncertainty

3. you have the temporary transformation of a probability distribution into wave function by the constraint produced by measurement...

I am trying to see more clearly into this...

Marcel,

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Lee Bloomquist wrote on Dec. 8, 2018 @ 00:58 GMT
Our understanding of wave function collapse uses the language of “standard analysis,” which is not a good language for talking about existence— which is the problem here. Instead of a “limit”, which necessarily involves statements about numbers on a real number line— which therefore say that before the”limit” can exist, there must first exist this number line stretching in front of...

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