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RECENT POSTS IN THIS TOPIC

**Wayne Lundberg**: *on* 3/3/18 at 19:33pm UTC, wrote Thank-you for the arXiv refs, Tejinder. I understand that point-like...

**Tejinder Singh**: *on* 3/1/18 at 3:03am UTC, wrote Dear Wayne, Your ideas of space-filling objects are very interesting! I do...

**Wayne Lundberg**: *on* 2/27/18 at 2:51am UTC, wrote Oddly, in Einstein's time, those clocks were mostly gravity-driven by...

**Steven Andresen**: *on* 2/26/18 at 8:59am UTC, wrote Wayne People invent clocks, then Einstein comes along and discovers their...

**Wayne Lundberg**: *on* 2/26/18 at 0:33am UTC, wrote Terry, The association with string was originally geometric, and I always...

**Wayne Lundberg**: *on* 2/25/18 at 15:24pm UTC, wrote Steven, I'm not really 'looking for more essays to read and rate'' but am...

**Peter Jackson**: *on* 2/23/18 at 17:11pm UTC, wrote Wayne Are you saying there has to be a sharp 'cut off' line at the switch?...

**Terry Bollinger**: *on* 2/22/18 at 22:37pm UTC, wrote Dear Wayne, What a fascinating essay! I was surprised at how short it was...

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The impossibility of building a perfect clock could help explain away microscale weirdness.

FQXi FORUM

May 24, 2019

CATEGORY:
FQXi Essay Contest - Spring, 2017
[back]

TOPIC: A well-founded formulation for quantum chromo- and electro-dynamics by Wayne R Lundberg [refresh]

TOPIC: A well-founded formulation for quantum chromo- and electro-dynamics by Wayne R Lundberg [refresh]

Although we often speak of fundamental particles, those in the standard model lack a formal mathematical foundation. That is, the standard model of particle theory is empirically-founded but could benefit from a formal, causal basis for consistency with cosmology. This essay will explore the notion that such a mathematical foundation exists and discuss its ability to address known problems in fundamental physics.

Dr Lundberg studied mathematics and graduate-level physics at CWRU thru 1980, and has continued learning about, and contributing to, theoretical physics at many conferences since. His 30-year professional career has supported his lifelong learning, based on the premise that geometry and algebraic duality extends to particle theory's quantum algebra.

Very Interesting Wayne!

Quote

A key characteristic of a foundational theory is that it be consistent across all

physical scales. Thus a causal particle’s formulation must be consistent with the No-

Boundary Wave Function, which is consistent with cosmological evolution. Takeuti

further proved3 that a self-consistent mathematical system must be finitary. This means

that fundamental particles are finite in extent (whether observable or not).

end of quote

I agree with this, and think it is a good insight.

Before leaving, are you saying that SUSY as an example fits this billet ?

You brought up the example of cyclic cosmology which is a very good point.

Can you add a bit more to it ? Thanks

BTW, you can examine my essay, and I hope you comment on it. It is in December 21st, one of the first ones

Thanks again for your lucid presentation!!

Andrew

report post as inappropriate

Quote

A key characteristic of a foundational theory is that it be consistent across all

physical scales. Thus a causal particle’s formulation must be consistent with the No-

Boundary Wave Function, which is consistent with cosmological evolution. Takeuti

further proved3 that a self-consistent mathematical system must be finitary. This means

that fundamental particles are finite in extent (whether observable or not).

end of quote

I agree with this, and think it is a good insight.

Before leaving, are you saying that SUSY as an example fits this billet ?

You brought up the example of cyclic cosmology which is a very good point.

Can you add a bit more to it ? Thanks

BTW, you can examine my essay, and I hope you comment on it. It is in December 21st, one of the first ones

Thanks again for your lucid presentation!!

Andrew

report post as inappropriate

Thanks, Andrew.

I didn't discuss SUSY much because I wanted to stick to the most fundamental. I recall a discussion with David Gross in which he said that the pi-0 meson requires SUSY, which is true here too. But pi-0 also has no supersymmetric partner... it has an extra internal symmetry. Same is true for Z-0 and I think Higgs. I generally don't get to that point, but did at DPF 02: talk “Architecture of a Comprehensive Theory – Understanding Beth, the Particulate Mass Functional” was posted online at http://dpf2002.velopers.net/talks_pdf/154talk.pdf .

I also referenced my first paper on cyclic cosmology, and the DPF 09 posters include the subject. It is also an easy solution to the cosmological coincidence problem, which I talked about at the Eastern Gravity Meeting in 2015.

I will take a look at your paper after I finish another... wish I had more time,

Wayne

I didn't discuss SUSY much because I wanted to stick to the most fundamental. I recall a discussion with David Gross in which he said that the pi-0 meson requires SUSY, which is true here too. But pi-0 also has no supersymmetric partner... it has an extra internal symmetry. Same is true for Z-0 and I think Higgs. I generally don't get to that point, but did at DPF 02: talk “Architecture of a Comprehensive Theory – Understanding Beth, the Particulate Mass Functional” was posted online at http://dpf2002.velopers.net/talks_pdf/154talk.pdf .

I also referenced my first paper on cyclic cosmology, and the DPF 09 posters include the subject. It is also an easy solution to the cosmological coincidence problem, which I talked about at the Eastern Gravity Meeting in 2015.

I will take a look at your paper after I finish another... wish I had more time,

Wayne

Wayne,

Fascinating essay and hypothesis, nicely explained, though I suspect maybe to much unexplained formulation and obscured language for the (Sci-Am) target audience, so also the judges. I certainly agree the standard model still needs a lot of work and a more consistent basis. There was much else I agreed with even though our approaches are quite different. Certainly to cyclic cosmology, (but I have a net zero cosmological constant for large t).

I liked the geometric approach but couldn't extract a physical link between the spinning triangles and trecoil. Perhaps you may identify & elucidate. I've also always wondered why the 'triangle' is 'simplest' in 3D +t apart from degrees of freedom, also representable by the axes of a sphere, which I've always felt simpler. I do hope you can read and assess the apparent classical derivation of QM predictions that emerges.

I'm not qualified to judge veracity (is anyone?) but that's anyway no criteria. I felt it an excellent attempt to tackle an important fundamental issue.

Very well done. I have it right up there so far.

Best of luck,

Peter

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Fascinating essay and hypothesis, nicely explained, though I suspect maybe to much unexplained formulation and obscured language for the (Sci-Am) target audience, so also the judges. I certainly agree the standard model still needs a lot of work and a more consistent basis. There was much else I agreed with even though our approaches are quite different. Certainly to cyclic cosmology, (but I have a net zero cosmological constant for large t).

I liked the geometric approach but couldn't extract a physical link between the spinning triangles and trecoil. Perhaps you may identify & elucidate. I've also always wondered why the 'triangle' is 'simplest' in 3D +t apart from degrees of freedom, also representable by the axes of a sphere, which I've always felt simpler. I do hope you can read and assess the apparent classical derivation of QM predictions that emerges.

I'm not qualified to judge veracity (is anyone?) but that's anyway no criteria. I felt it an excellent attempt to tackle an important fundamental issue.

Very well done. I have it right up there so far.

Best of luck,

Peter

report post as inappropriate

Peter,

It was good to hear your review and point of view, as I am not a supporter of blind review processes.

There is an important lesson in "necessary and sufficient conditions" to be made here. Perhaps I should have spun the essay in that way? To be sure, it is possible to choose a finite representation geometry which is (a) insufficient (b) necessary and sufficient or (c)...

view entire post

It was good to hear your review and point of view, as I am not a supporter of blind review processes.

There is an important lesson in "necessary and sufficient conditions" to be made here. Perhaps I should have spun the essay in that way? To be sure, it is possible to choose a finite representation geometry which is (a) insufficient (b) necessary and sufficient or (c)...

view entire post

Wayne,

You wrote; "I doubt that it has the "necessary" combinatorial algebra intrinsically tied to its geometry. so no QCD?"

It has. I always find it's better to read things rather than make assumptions. It's a common problem these days. I know some professors only read one paper a month! That means I've read some 10,000 more papers than many professors over the last 20 years! I haven't found conferences any substitute.

Dirac's double stacked paired inverse orthogonal ('complementarity') states are physically implicit, and so called 'entanglement' emerges simply from maintained anti-paralell polar axes and interaction momentum exchange. The last part of the puzzle emerged only recently, deriving the Cos^2 from Cos distributions. I'm sure you'll be impressed. QCD provided a key element in the field interactions for that last part - as my last years essay identified. I suspect there's more in common but perhaps you'll advise.

Declan's essay gives the matching computer code and plot for the ontology and experiment in mine.

Very Best

Peter

report post as inappropriate

You wrote; "I doubt that it has the "necessary" combinatorial algebra intrinsically tied to its geometry. so no QCD?"

It has. I always find it's better to read things rather than make assumptions. It's a common problem these days. I know some professors only read one paper a month! That means I've read some 10,000 more papers than many professors over the last 20 years! I haven't found conferences any substitute.

Dirac's double stacked paired inverse orthogonal ('complementarity') states are physically implicit, and so called 'entanglement' emerges simply from maintained anti-paralell polar axes and interaction momentum exchange. The last part of the puzzle emerged only recently, deriving the Cos^2 from Cos distributions. I'm sure you'll be impressed. QCD provided a key element in the field interactions for that last part - as my last years essay identified. I suspect there's more in common but perhaps you'll advise.

Declan's essay gives the matching computer code and plot for the ontology and experiment in mine.

Very Best

Peter

report post as inappropriate

Wayne, (reply posted in my string)

Thanks for the support. The link to QED was just what someone pointed out about field depth not anything I 'attempted' to do. However your electron model attachment looks shockingly close to my own some years ago;fqXi finalit 2013-14 Do Bob and Alice have a future? (see the figs etc towards the end). However to remove the weirdness from QM just needs those colours to 'bleed into' each other rather then just 'switch'. Is that excluded in QED?

It seems you 'switched off' from the essay just when it opened up the ontology for a classical reproduction of QM predictions, as it headed off your own familiar path (indeed m MOST peoples paths!), so you missed the big finale! Do look again if you get a chance. It's consistent with Bell and this important paper, referred in Gordon Watson's consistent paper; Fröhner, F. H. (1998). “Missing link between probability theory and quantum mechanics: the Riesz-Fejér theorem.” Z. Naturforsch. 53a, 637-654.

Very best

Peter

report post as inappropriate

Thanks for the support. The link to QED was just what someone pointed out about field depth not anything I 'attempted' to do. However your electron model attachment looks shockingly close to my own some years ago;fqXi finalit 2013-14 Do Bob and Alice have a future? (see the figs etc towards the end). However to remove the weirdness from QM just needs those colours to 'bleed into' each other rather then just 'switch'. Is that excluded in QED?

It seems you 'switched off' from the essay just when it opened up the ontology for a classical reproduction of QM predictions, as it headed off your own familiar path (indeed m MOST peoples paths!), so you missed the big finale! Do look again if you get a chance. It's consistent with Bell and this important paper, referred in Gordon Watson's consistent paper; Fröhner, F. H. (1998). “Missing link between probability theory and quantum mechanics: the Riesz-Fejér theorem.” Z. Naturforsch. 53a, 637-654.

Very best

Peter

report post as inappropriate

None of the contemporary physical theories, including QED, QCD, string theory and LQG features a proper foundation.

Only the basic structure that was discovered and introduced by Garrett Birkhoff and John von Neumann in 1936 is a serious candidate for the foundation of physical reality. Some scientists followed that path but never explored it seriously. The Hilbert Book Model Project takes up the button and reaches interesting results.

https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Hilbert_Book_Model_P

roject

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Only the basic structure that was discovered and introduced by Garrett Birkhoff and John von Neumann in 1936 is a serious candidate for the foundation of physical reality. Some scientists followed that path but never explored it seriously. The Hilbert Book Model Project takes up the button and reaches interesting results.

https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Hilbert_Book_Model_P

roject

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I would beg to differ about "only" a 1936 mathematics is a candidate. At that time, they had no QCD, only QED. It is important for a fundamental theory to account for all these quanta, and I did so in a one-to-one way with a (tripartite) string-like geometry.

I really wish that the modern theorists who eschew ides such as yours (and mine) would attempt to put together a "whatever happened to" explaining how it is that any given theory was abandoned.

I would suspect that the results lack a causal particle, since Seiberg's criteria seems to hard to pass. Anyway, take another look at the essay and maybe we can find a common interest?

Wayne

I really wish that the modern theorists who eschew ides such as yours (and mine) would attempt to put together a "whatever happened to" explaining how it is that any given theory was abandoned.

I would suspect that the results lack a causal particle, since Seiberg's criteria seems to hard to pass. Anyway, take another look at the essay and maybe we can find a common interest?

Wayne

Dear Wayne, Nice and entertaining work. I chose to became a relativist based on the extraordinary beauty of Einstein's geometric vision of gravity. Thus, despite I am not a particle physicist, I strongly appreciate your approach that what is “Fundamental” for particle theory should be a foundational theorem defining geometric-algebraic space-time objects. Geometrization of all physics is indeed my greatest dream. Thus, your Essay deserves my high rating. Congrats and good luck in the Contest. Cheers, Ch.

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Prof Wayne R Lundberg

Wonderful thinking sir........That is, the standard model of particle theory is empirically-founded but could benefit from a formal, causal basis for consistency with cosmology. This essay will explore the notion that such a mathematical foundation exists and discuss its ability to address known problems in fundamental physics...........Best wishes for the new...

view entire post

Wonderful thinking sir........That is, the standard model of particle theory is empirically-founded but could benefit from a formal, causal basis for consistency with cosmology. This essay will explore the notion that such a mathematical foundation exists and discuss its ability to address known problems in fundamental physics...........Best wishes for the new...

view entire post

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SNP Gupta, I did so and I certainly appreciate your enthusiasm!

There is room for insight in better understanding our universe

There is room for insight in better understanding our universe

Hi Prof Wayne R Lundberg

Thank you for the nice words and observations…..

You raise an interesting topic, but like others I don't find a clear fundamental thing or principle or formulae……

…………..My reply…….

Here I saw many essays discussing what is fundamental etc, but in this essay, I went for the fundamental issue for energy to mass conversions and...

view entire post

Thank you for the nice words and observations…..

You raise an interesting topic, but like others I don't find a clear fundamental thing or principle or formulae……

…………..My reply…….

Here I saw many essays discussing what is fundamental etc, but in this essay, I went for the fundamental issue for energy to mass conversions and...

view entire post

report post as inappropriate

No-one has the means for observational evidence, and in fact observations do more to disprove theory. So you should be looking for evidence among what is already observed that conflicts with your (not very well formulated) intuition.

Why? Because GR works quite well. Better yet with the cosmological constant. In fact even subtle variants away from GR are very often easily disproven... I have some good amusing examples. For now the Modified Gravity camp and the Dark Energy camp are fighting it out, with a high probability of mutual exclusion. We'll have to wait and see what the Dark Energy survey concludes... unfortunately they so far have weak statistics, currently favoring CC by 3sigma or maybe more.

I figure that data excludes your work... but don't feel alone... many well-funded theories (missing mass, i.e. gravitational collapse of the universe) have had spectacular ends (1998).

Wayne

Why? Because GR works quite well. Better yet with the cosmological constant. In fact even subtle variants away from GR are very often easily disproven... I have some good amusing examples. For now the Modified Gravity camp and the Dark Energy camp are fighting it out, with a high probability of mutual exclusion. We'll have to wait and see what the Dark Energy survey concludes... unfortunately they so far have weak statistics, currently favoring CC by 3sigma or maybe more.

I figure that data excludes your work... but don't feel alone... many well-funded theories (missing mass, i.e. gravitational collapse of the universe) have had spectacular ends (1998).

Wayne

Dear Wayne Lundberg,

Thanks for reading my essay and commenting. I'm glad you enjoyed it. You suggested that I look at Seiberg, Susskind, and Toumbas on 'Space-time Non-commutation and Causality' – they discuss "*the other term is an "advanced" wave which appears to leave the wall before the incoming packet arrived*." They then say a conflict with Lorentz invariance is relevant. ...

view entire post

Thanks for reading my essay and commenting. I'm glad you enjoyed it. You suggested that I look at Seiberg, Susskind, and Toumbas on 'Space-time Non-commutation and Causality' – they discuss "

view entire post

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Dear Edwin,

You have an interesting belief system. It seems that you've taken a rather different approach to restoring causality to particle theory. It would necessarily be a rather more complex approach if you rely solely on Yang-Mills as fundamental and attempt to reconstruct QCD via a fluid-dynamics idea. I model them as co-fundamental, all quanta are required to have a geometrically...

view entire post

You have an interesting belief system. It seems that you've taken a rather different approach to restoring causality to particle theory. It would necessarily be a rather more complex approach if you rely solely on Yang-Mills as fundamental and attempt to reconstruct QCD via a fluid-dynamics idea. I model them as co-fundamental, all quanta are required to have a geometrically...

view entire post

Dear Wayne

If you are looking for another essay to read and rate in the final days of the contest, will you consider mine please? I read all essays from those who comment on my page, and if I cant rate an essay highly, then I don’t rate them at all. Infact I haven’t issued a rating lower that ten. So you have nothing to lose by having me read your essay, and everything to...

view entire post

If you are looking for another essay to read and rate in the final days of the contest, will you consider mine please? I read all essays from those who comment on my page, and if I cant rate an essay highly, then I don’t rate them at all. Infact I haven’t issued a rating lower that ten. So you have nothing to lose by having me read your essay, and everything to...

view entire post

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Steven,

I'm not really 'looking for more essays to read and rate'' but am interested in innovative ideas. There are many papers here that consider PART of the basis for all 4 fundamental forces... but few even attempt to explain all.

I'll search out yours, but you really didn't need to write a mini-essay to ask... I feel all hypotheses must end somehow, so it is important to understand and be able to explain how. so few even attempt THAT!

WRL

I'm not really 'looking for more essays to read and rate'' but am interested in innovative ideas. There are many papers here that consider PART of the basis for all 4 fundamental forces... but few even attempt to explain all.

I'll search out yours, but you really didn't need to write a mini-essay to ask... I feel all hypotheses must end somehow, so it is important to understand and be able to explain how. so few even attempt THAT!

WRL

Dear Wayne,

What a fascinating essay! I was surprised at how short it was in page count, since you cover a*lot* of turf. I was also very pleased to see an essay that addresses quarks, the strong force, and neutrinos, since without those other non-electrons it’s hard to see how one can make serious inroads into the issue of where fermions come from. Arguably, the far messier and more...

view entire post

What a fascinating essay! I was surprised at how short it was in page count, since you cover a

view entire post

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Terry,

The association with string was originally geometric, and I always constructed it 'with partitions'. But they couldn't figure out how to do that and the journals were filled with dead-end refs. Eventually, after seminars hosted by Kaufmann and conversations with Smolin, the two collaborated with Bilson-Thompson on another geometric version of TVT combinatorial algebra and quantum...

view entire post

The association with string was originally geometric, and I always constructed it 'with partitions'. But they couldn't figure out how to do that and the journals were filled with dead-end refs. Eventually, after seminars hosted by Kaufmann and conversations with Smolin, the two collaborated with Bilson-Thompson on another geometric version of TVT combinatorial algebra and quantum...

view entire post

Wayne

People invent clocks, then Einstein comes along and discovers their rate is modulated in gravitational environments.

What you have done is listen to somebody say, "forces drive a clocks function, so forces must be implicated in general relativitys effects".

To which your respond. Nothing of any interest here, bit of poetic mumbo jumbo maybe!

Maybe it's that you're not very deductive

Steve

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People invent clocks, then Einstein comes along and discovers their rate is modulated in gravitational environments.

What you have done is listen to somebody say, "forces drive a clocks function, so forces must be implicated in general relativitys effects".

To which your respond. Nothing of any interest here, bit of poetic mumbo jumbo maybe!

Maybe it's that you're not very deductive

Steve

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Oddly, in Einstein's time, those clocks were mostly gravity-driven by weights. Since then many other forces are used to MEASURE time, since they impart some effects on physical objects. Of course, that includes atomic clocks, among the most accurate, which use electro-weak forces.

So indeed, since all 4 well-known fundamental forces can be used to measure time, certainly all 4 should be formulated in a causal fashion. But quantum mechanics isn't.

So indeed, since all 4 well-known fundamental forces can be used to measure time, certainly all 4 should be formulated in a causal fashion. But quantum mechanics isn't.

Dear Wayne,

Your ideas of space-filling objects are very interesting! I do not have any definite answers, but gravitation theories with torsion, which I have been studying, might be relevant. I have outlined some preliminary ideas in:

https://arxiv.org/abs/1704.00747

https://arxiv.org/abs/170

5.05330

My best regards,

Tejinder

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Your ideas of space-filling objects are very interesting! I do not have any definite answers, but gravitation theories with torsion, which I have been studying, might be relevant. I have outlined some preliminary ideas in:

https://arxiv.org/abs/1704.00747

https://arxiv.org/abs/170

5.05330

My best regards,

Tejinder

report post as inappropriate

Thank-you for the arXiv refs, Tejinder. I understand that point-like particles (or masses) are prohibited in any self-consistent mathematical system. I also find your Compton-Schwarzschild length interesting, although I have very serious doubts about any form or particle-like DM matter candidate, at least for the conical strong lensing signature. No observed clumping= not any form of massive particle.

WRL

WRL

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