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RECENT POSTS IN THIS TOPIC

Steven Andresen: on 2/22/18 at 8:43am UTC, wrote Dear Anil, Narenda If you are looking for another essay to read and rate...

Narendra Nath: on 2/17/18 at 15:58pm UTC, wrote Dear Laurence, we value your pertinent comments hughly. We also agree that...

Laurence Hitterdale: on 2/17/18 at 14:54pm UTC, wrote Dear Anil and Narendra, Your comments on the page for my essay are much...

Steve Dufourny: on 2/16/18 at 12:45pm UTC, wrote hello Narendra, happy to see your essay, it was a wonderful spiritual...

Narendra Nath: on 2/16/18 at 5:33am UTC, wrote Validimere, we appreciate your comments as Anil has already done. I am...

Anil Shanker: on 2/15/18 at 18:23pm UTC, wrote Dear Vladimir, I appreciate very much your comments. And thank you for the...

Vladimir Rogozhin: on 2/15/18 at 17:10pm UTC, wrote Dear Anil and Narendra, Wonderful! You give in a short but deep in spirit...

Narendra Nath: on 2/12/18 at 8:48am UTC, wrote The philosophy behind creation of the Univverse is relatively simpler to...


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FQXi FORUM
October 23, 2019

CATEGORY: FQXi Essay Contest - Spring, 2017 [back]
TOPIC: ABSOLUTENESS IN THE CONTEXT OF SCIENCE AND SPIRITUALITY by Anil Shanker and Narenda Nath [refresh]
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Author Anil Shanker wrote on Jan. 25, 2018 @ 17:22 GMT
Essay Abstract

We live in this world that evolved under an act guided by the powerful forces of Nature, the Almighty God. Earth as an orbiting planet around the star we call the Sun, provides us the most habitable and amiable climate for life. Our lives are governed by natural forces that have also been provided over the globe. Furthermore, we have developed an inherited intelligence over time to reach a level of better understanding using the tools of science we developed from the philosophical knowledge following a logical methodology. The intelligence will continue to evolve with the use of advances in technology. In a parallel stream, we have developed some religious thoughts through inward introspection, which provide an alternate to the scientific methodology to relate us with the spiritual aspects about the world we live in. These come under spiritual realms as they relate more to the human spirit relative to the human body and mind, the totality constituting the individual human nature. Absoluteness is, thus, an element of Truth we seek using both of these physical and spiritual tools.

Author Bio

Anil Shanker, PhD Biotechnology (1999) from Banaras Hindu University, is Associate Professor of Biochemistry and Cancer Biology at Meharry Medical College and Vanderbilt-Ingram Cancer Center of Vanderbilt University. He performed Postdoctoral studies at CNRS-INSERM Center of Immunology, Marseille-Luminy, France and National Cancer Institute, Maryland. Narendra Nath, PhD Physics (1962) from Delhi University, was Reader at Banaras Hindu University, retiring as Professor of Physics at Kurukshetra University. He performed Postdoctoral studies at Louisiana State University, Franklin Institute’s Bartol Research Foundation, Harwell laboratories, UK and Nuclear Accelerator laboratory, University of Helsinki. He was also a Senior Foreign Scientist at Brigham Young University.

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Wilhelmus de Wilde de Wilde wrote on Jan. 26, 2018 @ 16:10 GMT
Dear Anil and Narendra

Thank you for an informative and enlightening essay.

The absoluteness you are indicating (and searching) is the same as my perception of “Total Consciousness” and Total Simultaneity. Like any human being I am also a seeker, and will always be until my death. In my model of reality however death is not a final point, it is the end of restrictions like time and space. The part of my “restricted consciousness” re-loops into Total Simultaneity, where there is no time and space so everything is eternal and infinite. As we cannot imagine this kind of dimension for us it is a POINT.

I hope that you both can spare some time to read and rate my essay “Foundational Quantum Reality Loops”, where I am trying to find, with the help of the until now known physical achievements, a way to find the absoluteness.

Best regards

Wilhelmus de Wilde

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Author Anil Shanker replied on Jan. 28, 2018 @ 07:28 GMT
Thank you, Wilhelmus for your comments. I agree with you that "total consciousness" is also "total simultaneity". Also, you re right in saying that death is not a final point. In fact, I believe that life and death are simply two intermediary points in a simple continuum of absolute nothingness.

Regards,

Anil

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Joe Fisher wrote on Jan. 26, 2018 @ 16:56 GMT
Dear Professors Anil Shanker and Narenda Nath

Reliable evidence exists that proves that the surface of the earth was formed millions of years before man and his utterly complex finite informational systems ever appeared on that surface. It logically follows that Nature must have permanently devised the only single physical construct of earth allowable.

Joe Fisher, Realist

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Author Anil Shanker replied on Jan. 28, 2018 @ 07:40 GMT
I do agree with you, Joe on your first remark. But I am not sure about the permanency of any physical construct. They may appear permanent only in a very narrow frame of space and time.

Kind regards,

Anil

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Member Tejinder Pal Singh wrote on Jan. 27, 2018 @ 10:56 GMT
Dear Authors,

Greetings, and thank you for your essay. I was wondering why you do not allow for the possibility that human consciousness is a property of the material of which the human body is made?

Kind regards,

Tejinder

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Author Anil Shanker replied on Jan. 28, 2018 @ 07:36 GMT
Thank you so much, Tejinder for your important remark. In my opinion, we do allow for the animate and the inanimate and the connecting/intervening consciousness as components of one absolute nothingness. I envision the world as one continuum constituted by all its manifestations and regulatory natural forces (simply summed up as "Almighty God").

Regards,

Anil

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Narendra Nath replied on Jan. 28, 2018 @ 10:16 GMT
Consciousness has no mass or energy content as such. Thus, science is unable to deal with its current methodology. Our saints in ancient times, did lot of sacrifice, meditation and what we call Tapa to look deep inside. A good illustartion exists by way of the speed of light that was given as correctly as the modern measurements by Rishi Bhaskar. Also Patanjali Rishi has attributed to the discovery of gravity to his predecessors. They worked and conveyed things orally to their next generation successively and today this fact has been accepted by our scientific community to be a factual statement to the credit of our wise ancesters in India. Such is the beauty of ' CONSCIOUSNESS ' as it can be appraoched with advantage both internally as well as externally. There is a saying in India that our inner world can reflect the outer world successfully if the former has that strength required. As a scientist who has practiced meditation and yoga for a number of years while in active service as Professor of Physics and found it to be relevant for innovation in thought. Thought / ideas lead to action and accomplishement eventually!

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Member Tejinder Pal Singh replied on Jan. 29, 2018 @ 07:07 GMT
Dear Anil, Dear Narendra,

Thank you for your important remarks. I fully agree with you that consciousness / self-awareness can be beautifully felt through meditation, by watching oneself and one's thoughts as if from outside, as a `watcher.

However, I honestly see no reason as to why one day consciousness will not be understood as a state of the material of which our body is made. There is, in my opinion, often a tendency, as we have seen in the history of science, to attribute to `beyond science' those natural phenomena which we are currently unable to explain using science.

I fully support that our ancient spiritual masters already knew a great deal in matters of meditation and self-awareness.

I feel meditation and `inner contemplation' will help understand consciousness, but for me meditation and inner contemplation are also a form of science only...it is the experiment of self-observation.

Kind regards,

'

Tejinder

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Narendra Nath wrote on Jan. 28, 2018 @ 16:58 GMT
my.... post was left half done! assignment at Brigham Younf University, Provo, UT was based on US National Science Foundation nomination as Senior Foreign scientist that carried my family travel plus honorarium to USA from India and back!I appreciate that gesture of US Institutions of repute!

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Wilhelmus de Wilde de Wilde wrote on Jan. 28, 2018 @ 19:00 GMT
Dear Anil.

I agree with you that "absoluteness" is a way for Total Consciousness to "express" itself, and to realise the Completeness tthat I indicate as "Total Simultaneity". Both expressions (Absoluteness and TS) are means to describe the totality of realities that can be experienced by ALL agents of ALL Realities. However these realities are NOTHING when there is no consciousness.

I thank you for taking your time to read an comment my essay.

rbest regards

Wilhelmus

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Author Anil Shanker replied on Jan. 28, 2018 @ 20:35 GMT
"Realities are NOTHING when there is no consciousness" very interesting observation.

Thanks,

Anil

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Cristinel Stoica wrote on Jan. 28, 2018 @ 19:07 GMT
Dear Anil and Narendra,

Thank you for your essay. You sketched a brief history of human evolution, in simple and touching words. Spirituality and technology, two apparently opposite poles, but both part of our world. Long time ago we discovered fire and iron, and in time we arrived at our current technology. Technology is so far from our roots and from our essence, but I see it as an amplifier of our actions and most intimate vāsanā. Narendra, technology facilitated the encounter between you and me almost 10 years ago, and although we've never met, our connection went beyond the Internet. Like for fire and iron, it's up to us what we do with technologies, "they're either a benefit or a hazard", and your essay warns us about the dangers, but also about the possibilities. I particularly find very beautiful and insightful this phrase you wrote: "Science may help achieve that ultimate goal [...] by collapsing the sphere we built back to a mere point, a continuum of eternity".

Warm regards,

Cristi Stoica, Indra's net

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Author Anil Shanker replied on Jan. 28, 2018 @ 20:33 GMT
Thank you, Cristi for your kind and appreciative words. The continuum of eternity encompasses all and everything that we are trying to understand and define...Certain things are however beyond definition...Consciousness or a simple word like "love" are everything or nothing...or a singularity.

The more we understand, the more I feel we understand very little.

Kind regards,

Anil

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Narendra Nath replied on Jan. 29, 2018 @ 04:34 GMT
Dear Cristi, nice to see your comments on our essay from you, an old friend from past contests. Nature is not man made. In fact we have hardly added anything toit since inception and humans appearing on the scene. The only thing we have done is to disturb the Nature through indiscriminate technology, i.e, not nature friendly. We ahve brought wars and human ragedies across the globe. It is time we enhance the strength of humanity and make technology conform to it!

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Narendra Nath replied on Jan. 30, 2018 @ 12:41 GMT
Poor public rating needs understanding that we have lacked support of people at large. There is lack of understanding of people around us. We need better understanding about our relations with the community beyond the authors partcipating here in about 150 odd essays!

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Narendra Nath wrote on Jan. 30, 2018 @ 02:38 GMT
Nothing and everything to add!

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Wilhelmus de Wilde de Wilde wrote on Jan. 30, 2018 @ 15:52 GMT
Dear Narendra,

As an answer on your post on my thread of jan 29 :

It is NOT as you write that Planck area's emerge from 4 dimensional Space Time, in my proposal it is just the way around. In this essay I named TOTAL SIMULTANEITY the Planck Area, from where ALL realities emerge.

Total Simultaneity is space and time-less, it is an eternal point of creation.

The primal cause of this creation is the INITIATIVE FOR COMPLETENESS OF TOTAL CONSCIOUSNESS, also residing in Total Simultaneity.

You could also say : GOD is the Creator of ALL REALITY, the COMPLETENESS of GOD is the FIRS CAUSE of the creation (in his most broad way). TOTAL CONSCIOUSNESS residing in Total Simultaneity IS ansoluteness...(so..... I gave a scientific explanation of GOD)

best regards

Wilhelmus de Wilde

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Narendra Nath replied on Jan. 31, 2018 @ 12:25 GMT
Dear Wilhelmus, sorry i could not understand your contention in terms of the the totallty of Consciousness.It seems most authors understand essays other than their own in a limited manner. It is so in real life too as our differences of opinion get much reduced with better understanding. This naturally involve interaction between our invidual consciousness. In a comment Tejinder remarked that consciousness is a part of our body and consists of same material. To me such a conjecture does not take consciousness to the level of totality you conjectured. My inner voice tells me that cosciousness is ever-existent and even preceedes the material creation of the our Universe. Its logic must pre-exist as the design that emerged has certainly not come out randomness. Thus, Physics gets involved as one talks of random v/s order. I get reminded of an experiment i worked on for our graduate students where we added regular pulse events in different proportion to to the random evenys. Down to less than 0.01 % we found Chi-square test indicated lack of randomness to

exist. It just shows how strong is the distinction between randomness and artificiality of order to be present in nature.

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Narendra Nath replied on Feb. 1, 2018 @ 13:45 GMT
Wish to see some responses to last comments made!

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Jonathan J. Dickau wrote on Feb. 5, 2018 @ 03:37 GMT
Yours was an interesting essay...

It is a little off-topic and a lot on-target. It is not so much about what is fundamental to the physical sciences as it is about what is fundamental to we, the human beings studying topics like Physics. So I have to give you high marks for what you share well, but only partial credit or none in several areas. I have been grading papers using a grid system, where I assess the degree to which various criteria have been met - in imitation of the contest guidelines - but I continue to adjust where I see value not accounted for. Insights not on my grid do appear in this essay, so should be included. Since you speak mainly to the spiritual side of the quest for knowledge; I will share this.

I would advise you to press forward, taking some time to smell the roses but not getting caught up in the thorns. A Rinpoche imparted the lesson that the various attainments of mastery are but a step on the path, where other steps await but it is easy to get caught up in the side trip and end up in one of various hells of our own making. I can attest that it is possible to learn a simple meditation whereby one can enter a state of profound bliss, and it is truly a wonderful and transcendent state to be in. After only a few seconds, it can rise to orgasmic levels, but indulged in too long it becomes like masturbation. It is but a reminder of what awaits if further steps are taken.

All the Best,

Jonathan

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Author Anil Shanker replied on Feb. 5, 2018 @ 04:00 GMT
Thanks so much, Jonathan for such impressive words full of wisdom that summarizes it all.

Kind regards,

Anil

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Jonathan J. Dickau replied on Feb. 5, 2018 @ 04:02 GMT
I will also share this...

My personal experience shows it is possible to learn in ways that defy explanation in conventional terms. Rather than ask if it is possible to communicate with departed spirits, ascended masters, gods and goddesses, or other manifestations of the divine; it is wiser to discern if the information offered by extraordinary sources is helpful and truthful, or misleading. I believe the Sanskrit word is viveka - for being able to tell the difference between truth and falsehood. But the test involves both discerning reliable sources and having an evidence procedure by which verification of the mundane details can be obtained.

It comes to mind that I was working outdoors last Fall, when it came to mind that I should talk with B.G. Sidharth who founded the International Institute for Applicable Maths and Information Sciences, about the many abuses of Math we see in the world today. When I went to check my e-mail; there was an invitation from B.G. Sidharth to the FFP15 conference, which was in Orihuela last November. So it may not matter if this indicates that we are all connected, to the point where any thought on his part will prompt an awareness on mine and vice versa, but it is interesting to contemplate if such things might be true.

Kind Regards,

Jonathan

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Author Anil Shanker replied on Feb. 5, 2018 @ 04:11 GMT
We are all connected at the sublime level whether we acknowledge it or not. We feel it more in the realm of science.

Regards,

Anil

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Narendra Nath wrote on Feb. 5, 2018 @ 04:55 GMT
Many thanks, Jonathan for your thoughtful comments. In this competition, my spirit lies more with human mind and far less with the the conventional Physics, as developed by we humans too!Physics is liable to change if we persue any new unique idea! Ideas come from our thought processes. But as Einstein himself observed he got unique ideas that rought him international ranking all from cosmos and not out of his normal line of thinking processes. Yes, i too observed that meditation and Yoga are the two techniques that our ancestors developed thousands of years back back ourselves have lost our way at present as we get dependent too on technology. The latter keeps us 'busy' and also rank conscious, as wealth we earn matters these days far more than contemplation and depth of free thinking, called awareness and better still 'deree of consciousness' . It hardly requires lot of thinking. Rather it requires originality in thinking. The latter is tied to ' complete freedom of thought and detachment from wealth and ranking! I shuld not be critical of my young co-author as i requested him to add some thing unique out of his own wisdom , rather than persue discussion participation as such. I think i am taking care of it reasonably so far! Wisdom as it is different from intellect and worldly physical acquisitions we have achieved through science & technology!

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Satyavarapu Naga Parameswara Gupta wrote on Feb. 6, 2018 @ 13:38 GMT
Respected Prof Anil Shanker sab,

Respected Prof Narendra nath ji

Wonderful words sirs..." We live in this world that evolved under an act guided by the powerful forces of Nature, the Almighty God....and Technology is from inherited intelligence ....."

I think "... inherited intelligence ....." is also induced by God in a step by step manner......?

Here in my essay...

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Narendra Nath wrote on Feb. 7, 2018 @ 04:58 GMT
SNP Gupta , sir . I have posted my detailed comments i think on your site. But please look ap my related comments on the Essay by Ullah too! Please see that i am an old man of 85 years plus. It does tire me out somewhat and my wife comes in to intervene for the sake of my health. My mind is n better health than my body , thanks to help my soul/ spirit provides as three are integral parts of we all individuals!

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Satyavarapu Naga Parameswara Gupta replied on Feb. 8, 2018 @ 21:54 GMT
Respected prof Narendra Nath

I was very lucky to have blessings even at that age 85 years. Thank you for your nice analyzing words on my essay… I posted the revised abstract on Jan 2, I was travelling and I posted an earlier essay by mistake. I was in Bhilai for few days then. I know FQXi will not change the essay…..May please see that post… sorry for the error….

Author...

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Narendra Nath wrote on Feb. 9, 2018 @ 02:08 GMT
Your response shows maturity that is expected as you too is also same age of 85. I feel this essay cotest has the beauty to permit off the line thinking that one does not fnd in refereed journals of the day. Truth of Nature is often camouflagged because of the variety of procsses that are on play! WE therefore have to remain content with lots of models today. One theory for every thing does not appear possible as we lack a broader conceptualization in the current times of Specialisations! One's ego comes in that prevent humanity to assert in a unified manner. However, one day a common threat to humanity on Earth wil bring us together as we all understand the game of our po;itical leaders to keep us divided and rule over. Let us hope for simplicity and sanity to prevail so that we all get peace of mind we long for but are unable to get any where in this sacred Earth!

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Narendra Nath wrote on Feb. 10, 2018 @ 09:16 GMT
I attach a publication of ours that relates to the Topic of our Essay on this website

attachments: 1_INCONSTANCY_OF_THE_PHYSICAL_CONSTANTS_AND_1_12_1.doc

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Cristinel Stoica replied on Feb. 11, 2018 @ 06:54 GMT
Dear Narendra,

Thank you for pointing me to read your attachment, it was enjoyable and I learn new things. I don't know much about the stages of the universe and the changes that happened at each of these stages, but you explained well and gave relevant references. I think you propose that one should take into account how all this history of the universe led to the appearance of humans, and you suggest that the stages of the universe and how the parameters we consider constant changed in the right way. This is an interesting idea, and I like that you propose ways to verify it.

Best regards,

Cristi

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Narendra Nath wrote on Feb. 10, 2018 @ 09:21 GMT
The attached manuscript contains due references that were missing in our essay text here. We hope the readers will now be able to access the background of our Essay in the above comment by way of an Attachment of a Publiction/ Presentation made in a world Conference couple of years back and have appeared in the Conference Proceedings.

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Narendra Nath wrote on Feb. 11, 2018 @ 00:11 GMT
The world Conference concerned ' Expanding Paradigms of Consciousness in Medical Sciences ' organised by Indian Oculogists working at All India Institute of Medical Sciences ( AIIMS ), New Delhi, led by Prof. Dr. Kochupillai!

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Narendra Nath wrote on Feb. 12, 2018 @ 08:48 GMT
The philosophy behind creation of the Univverse is relatively simpler to tackle than the scientific understanding. Science has problems about making measurements involvig cosmic scale. One can attempt to measure speed of light, fine structure constant, etc but results involve large uncertainties to become conclusive unless inconstancy involved are sufficiently large. Thus far, speed of light indicates lowering its magnitude over billon of years. Fine structure constant involves charge of the electron as also the speed of light, beides the Planck's constant. Each may vary in a manner that may become difficult to quantify! But attempts need to be persued as the science may bring some revolutionary changes in the way it has developed thus far.

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Vladimir Rogozhin wrote on Feb. 15, 2018 @ 17:10 GMT
Dear Anil and Narendra,

Wonderful! You give in a short but deep in spirit essay very important thoughts and conclusions to overcome the current crisis of understanding in the foundations of science. Especially I liked your thoughts and conclusions:

«Where does the concept of Absoluteness come in? Our human experiences thus far show that our world and its manifestations seem to be...

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Author Anil Shanker replied on Feb. 15, 2018 @ 18:23 GMT
Dear Vladimir,

I appreciate very much your comments. And thank you for the work you have been doing on "Archeology (archectonics) of consciousness", which I consider very meaningful. People look upon metaphysics as a lowly science. But as you quote E. Schrodinger: Metaphysics is transformed in physics in the process of development. There is a long way for us to go to crystallize the fine workings of nature, which I believe is nothing but a combinatorial output of several domains of activity at the level of cognition, sublime consciousness, supramolecular biological and cosmic organization, and fundamental driving forces.

I hope to continue to work together on understanding these aspects in a holistic manner further. With the teamwork, I am sure one day we will grasp and unravel these layers for the benefit of humanity and supreme consciousness/absoluteness.

Best regards,

Anil

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Narendra Nath wrote on Feb. 16, 2018 @ 05:33 GMT
Validimere, we appreciate your comments as Anil has already done. I am happy too that Anil now is getting ready to add substantailly to our short presentation by widening the scope and contents in thinking. I hold thinking as key to unlock the secrets of Nature. Already , the nature has provided gaps between train of thoughts. These are important from the point of cosmic consciuosness to interact with individual consciousness. Bravo, let us all make knowledge a storehouse of understanding and comprehension, in order to advance humanity well in pace with technology, keeping the latter in check and control!

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Steve Dufourny wrote on Feb. 16, 2018 @ 12:45 GMT
hello Narendra,

happy to see your essay, it was a wonderful spiritual essay to read, thanks for these ideas, so full of spirituality.I loved it so much

Take care, friendly ,

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Laurence Hitterdale wrote on Feb. 17, 2018 @ 14:54 GMT
Dear Anil and Narendra,

Your comments on the page for my essay are much appreciated, and I thank you for them.

To turn then to your essay, there could be a question about the role of artificial intelligence in the dilemma between practicality and absoluteness. You refer to this dilemma on page 3, where you state, “A dilemma between practicality and absoluteness exists in all human societies today.” You had earlier on the same page referred to artificial intelligence, “However, attempts are continuing to bring consciousness in the domain of sciences through what may be termed as Artificial Intelligence. It was being developed primarily with the objective of communication with aliens using advanced techniques of communication engineering.” The question is whether artificial intelligence approaches the dilemma from the side of practicality or from the side of absoluteness. It might seem that artificial intelligence is a form of practicality, but insofar as it is associated with consciousness, it might be more connected to absoluteness. But perhaps the relationship is more subtle than a simple association with either pole of the dilemma.

In any case, best wishes to you as you develop your thoughts further.

Laurence Hitterdale

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Narendra Nath wrote on Feb. 17, 2018 @ 15:58 GMT
Dear Laurence, we value your pertinent comments hughly. We also agree that Artificial intelligence as being developed currently is dedicated to communiate with aliens whom we expect to face sooner than later! But its scope is as wide as intelligence can get! There is no limit for consciousness as it approaches the cosmic aspect.Our body , mind complex needs to take along the human spirit to such hieghts of 'wisdom ' if i may say so.Developing one's thoughts get limited by self itself. One needs collaborative thinking and that requires egolessness. It is this aspect where the techniques of meditattion and Yoga as developed in India centuries back needs a sort of revival and not in a fashionable manner as is being done around the world presently. It is an indivitual technique between an expert and the disciple and not suited to mass teaching, as being attempted!I kike the way you have presented the dilemma for we humans to solve!

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Steven Andresen wrote on Feb. 22, 2018 @ 08:43 GMT
Dear Anil, Narenda

If you are looking for another essay to read and rate in the final days of the contest, will you consider mine please? I read all essays from those who comment on my page, and if I cant rate an essay highly, then I don’t rate them at all. Infact I haven’t issued a rating lower that ten. So you have nothing to lose by having me read your essay, and everything to...

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