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FQXi FORUM

January 19, 2018

CATEGORY:
FQXi Essay Contest - Spring, 2017
[back]

TOPIC: The Fundamental Nature of Time by Edwin Eugene Klingman [refresh]

TOPIC: The Fundamental Nature of Time by Edwin Eugene Klingman [refresh]

This essay's rating: Community = 7.0; Public = 8.5

**RATE THIS ESSAY**

This essay is a candidate in FQXi's current Essay Contest,*What Is “Fundamental”.*

If you would like to rate this essay: After logging in, you'll be able to rate this essay as well as other submissions in the current Essay Contest.

Would you like to rate this essay?

This essay is a candidate in FQXi's current Essay Contest,

If you would like to rate this essay: After logging in, you'll be able to rate this essay as well as other submissions in the current Essay Contest.

Heinrich Hertz and Albert Einstein were experimental and theoretical geniuses. Hertz demonstrated the existence of radio waves. Einstein [with deHaas] experimentally linked magnetism and angular momentum. These two ingenious physicists tackled Maxwell's equations but diverged in their interpretations of reality. Einstein bases his classic paper on the Maxwell-Hertz equations. We report a post-humous meeting of these geniuses discussing ‘What is fundamental?’

Edwin Eugene Klingman was a NASA Research Physicist (atomic & molecular). His 1979 PhD dissertation, (published as "The Automatic Theory of Physics"), describes how numbers and math derive from physical reality and how a robot would derive a theory of physics based on pattern recognition and entropy. Founder of three Silicon Valley companies, he holds 33 technology patents and has published two university texts, "Microprocessor Systems Design" Vol I and II. He currently searches for false premises of physics that lead to contradiction and confusion.

Dear Eugene,

Another profound essay, congratulations. I have long been suspicious of the use of t as to define time as a 4th dimension. To me it follows that proof exists for SR with regards to time precisely because all that has happened is a t, a geometrical counter of time, has been inserted into the motion of light and the landscape situation light encounters i.e. that of the pull of gravity from a sun. This seems like Aristotle's ‘change’ describes Aristotle's time, by the limits of Aristotle's change itself. I find this somewhat astounding. Einstein has taken the induction of passing time, assigned it a counter as t at each location and then described its qualities in terms of a gap in that count due to the use of change of a physical object being counted. By this recognition it follows the time taken would be altered as the spatial is via mass. What I am suggesting here is that Einstein knew he would be right with regards to defining time as relative, long before they even did the experiment with the Hubble, because his equations were already right in the sense they didn’t actually explain time, they just predicted the inserted t count which altered, orderly, with each spatial coordinate of physical change.

(Is the final quote in your essay an endorsement of 'presentism'?)

Thanks for a great essay.

Jack

report post as inappropriate

Another profound essay, congratulations. I have long been suspicious of the use of t as to define time as a 4th dimension. To me it follows that proof exists for SR with regards to time precisely because all that has happened is a t, a geometrical counter of time, has been inserted into the motion of light and the landscape situation light encounters i.e. that of the pull of gravity from a sun. This seems like Aristotle's ‘change’ describes Aristotle's time, by the limits of Aristotle's change itself. I find this somewhat astounding. Einstein has taken the induction of passing time, assigned it a counter as t at each location and then described its qualities in terms of a gap in that count due to the use of change of a physical object being counted. By this recognition it follows the time taken would be altered as the spatial is via mass. What I am suggesting here is that Einstein knew he would be right with regards to defining time as relative, long before they even did the experiment with the Hubble, because his equations were already right in the sense they didn’t actually explain time, they just predicted the inserted t count which altered, orderly, with each spatial coordinate of physical change.

(Is the final quote in your essay an endorsement of 'presentism'?)

Thanks for a great essay.

Jack

report post as inappropriate

Dear Jack James,

Thank you for your kind comments. As you note, the standard SR perception of 4D space-time is problematical; Einstein's invention of multiple time dimensions even more so. Since FQXi page limits result in a lot of info being crammed into relatively few pages, those interested in this complex topic will probably find re-reading the essay worthwhile.

I've read your essay and will comment on your page. I checked the Wiki definition of 'presentism', which appears to me to agree with the fundamental understanding of time as universal simultaneity.

Thanks again for your comments,

Best regards,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Thank you for your kind comments. As you note, the standard SR perception of 4D space-time is problematical; Einstein's invention of multiple time dimensions even more so. Since FQXi page limits result in a lot of info being crammed into relatively few pages, those interested in this complex topic will probably find re-reading the essay worthwhile.

I've read your essay and will comment on your page. I checked the Wiki definition of 'presentism', which appears to me to agree with the fundamental understanding of time as universal simultaneity.

Thanks again for your comments,

Best regards,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Dear Jack James, [ I have left this comment on your page.]

You argue that rationalism (pure reasoning without experiential input) must have a vital role when it comes to revealing fundamentals. It is hard to find 'pure' cases (without experiential input) but I examine a case wherein a null result led to a theory based on pure reasoning, with the result that unreasonable assumptions (multiple time dimensions) took hold and have endured for a century.

Your point C discusses "*our rational theories matching our evolved cognitive perceptions of reality*". In the case of special relativity, our evolved cognitive perception of reality was that of universal time as universal simultaneity. Einstein's assumptions, upon which he rationally based his theory, led to conclusions that contradicted our evolved cognitive perception of reality. It's a real ball of wax.

Interestingly, an alternative rationale leads to the same mathematical result (the Lorentz transformation) by an entirely different path while yielding a theory that does match our evolved cognitive perceptions of reality. The difference is based on careful analysis of "perfect clocks".

The empirical confirmation offered by relativistic particle physics confirms the applicability of the Lorentz transformation without contradicting either the space-time symmetry of SR or the energy-time asymmetry of the 'real world' (one time dimension)-based theory.

I'm uncertain what the relevance of this is to your analytical approach, but it seems to provide a 'test case' for you to apply your approach to.

Thanks for reading my essay and commenting. My sense is that your approach is a reasonable take on a difficult problem.

Best regards,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

You argue that rationalism (pure reasoning without experiential input) must have a vital role when it comes to revealing fundamentals. It is hard to find 'pure' cases (without experiential input) but I examine a case wherein a null result led to a theory based on pure reasoning, with the result that unreasonable assumptions (multiple time dimensions) took hold and have endured for a century.

Your point C discusses "

Interestingly, an alternative rationale leads to the same mathematical result (the Lorentz transformation) by an entirely different path while yielding a theory that does match our evolved cognitive perceptions of reality. The difference is based on careful analysis of "perfect clocks".

The empirical confirmation offered by relativistic particle physics confirms the applicability of the Lorentz transformation without contradicting either the space-time symmetry of SR or the energy-time asymmetry of the 'real world' (one time dimension)-based theory.

I'm uncertain what the relevance of this is to your analytical approach, but it seems to provide a 'test case' for you to apply your approach to.

Thanks for reading my essay and commenting. My sense is that your approach is a reasonable take on a difficult problem.

Best regards,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Ed,

You sly old dog, when did you become a bartender? I will be reading and re-reading this paper for some time to come! Many thanks. I was never taught the Hertz Equations that you present, so this will give me another set of tools to study and use. MANY THANKS!

When you went from equation 1 to equation 2, you changed from G to g. I'm guessing you did this to prevent confusion...

view entire post

You sly old dog, when did you become a bartender? I will be reading and re-reading this paper for some time to come! Many thanks. I was never taught the Hertz Equations that you present, so this will give me another set of tools to study and use. MANY THANKS!

When you went from equation 1 to equation 2, you changed from G to g. I'm guessing you did this to prevent confusion...

view entire post

report post as inappropriate

Ed,

There are a couple of typos I did not catch in the above post.

"T = t*[cos(omega) + isin(omega)] = t*[sqrt{1 - (v/c)^2} + i(v/c)

Is this compatible with your thinking? It relates the phase angle to vI consider this to be a way to explain those pesky muons:-)"

Should be

T = t*[cos(omega) + isin(omega)] = t*[sqrt{1 - (v/c)^2} + i(v/c)]

Is this compatible with your thinking? It relates the phase angle to velocity. I consider this to be a way to explain those pesky muons:-)

Best Regards,

Gary Simpson

report post as inappropriate

There are a couple of typos I did not catch in the above post.

"T = t*[cos(omega) + isin(omega)] = t*[sqrt{1 - (v/c)^2} + i(v/c)

Is this compatible with your thinking? It relates the phase angle to vI consider this to be a way to explain those pesky muons:-)"

Should be

T = t*[cos(omega) + isin(omega)] = t*[sqrt{1 - (v/c)^2} + i(v/c)]

Is this compatible with your thinking? It relates the phase angle to velocity. I consider this to be a way to explain those pesky muons:-)

Best Regards,

Gary Simpson

report post as inappropriate

Dear Gary Simpson,

Thanks for your comments. I'm glad you intend to re-read the essay. It is packed full of info, therefore difficult to fully absorb in one reading. I worried about that, but first responses seem to imply that it is intelligible.

I was not taught Hertz's equations either. I was made aware of them recently by Tom Phipps, who participated in an FQXi essay contest at age 90 (as Eckard notes below).

Yes, equations (3) are more simply expressed via vector cross products but I am attempting to preserve Hertz's actual equations in their original 1890 form, as they also appear in Einstein's 1905 paper in that same form. However I have re-written equations (5) in modern form (with the original form shown in the Endnotes.)

I've read your paper and will respond on your page.

I do not view universal time as having two components. As you know, I very much appreciate quaternions but prefer geometric algebra. When moving beyond 4D I tend to believe one should jump to 8D Octonions, as I will discuss on your page. In short, since quaternions describe electromagnetism and also gravitomagnetism individually, I suspect that Octonions might nicely describe both electromagnetism and gravitomagnetism together. I'm not sure whether anyone has looked into this representation or not.

Best regards,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Thanks for your comments. I'm glad you intend to re-read the essay. It is packed full of info, therefore difficult to fully absorb in one reading. I worried about that, but first responses seem to imply that it is intelligible.

I was not taught Hertz's equations either. I was made aware of them recently by Tom Phipps, who participated in an FQXi essay contest at age 90 (as Eckard notes below).

Yes, equations (3) are more simply expressed via vector cross products but I am attempting to preserve Hertz's actual equations in their original 1890 form, as they also appear in Einstein's 1905 paper in that same form. However I have re-written equations (5) in modern form (with the original form shown in the Endnotes.)

I've read your paper and will respond on your page.

I do not view universal time as having two components. As you know, I very much appreciate quaternions but prefer geometric algebra. When moving beyond 4D I tend to believe one should jump to 8D Octonions, as I will discuss on your page. In short, since quaternions describe electromagnetism and also gravitomagnetism individually, I suspect that Octonions might nicely describe both electromagnetism and gravitomagnetism together. I'm not sure whether anyone has looked into this representation or not.

Best regards,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Dear "Tavern Keeper",

Sadly Tom Phippps has meanwhile died. When he the last time contributed to a FQXi contest, he was 90 years old. He would certainly appreciate you continuing and further developing his central ideas.

I blame my outdated office program and my worsening eyes for some problems I have with your essay. Maybe your reference 14 on p.1 is just a typo between 1,2,3 and 5,6,7,8 on p.2 ? Maybe I overlooked the mentioned in the abstract name deHaas in the body of your essay. I may also have overlooked several hints in the text to the given references. Perhaps they were not overly important.

Your message is clear and coincides with mine.

Anyway, the 10 by the public so far seems to appreciate your courage.

Having just finished my essay "Semi-fundamental structures", I hope you will get in a few days and use the option for commenting on it. I have not much time for reading essays and selected yours because I recall your exceptionally proficient comments in former contests. Your essay turned out to be closer to mine than to be expected from your abstract.

Best,

Eckard Blumschein

report post as inappropriate

Sadly Tom Phippps has meanwhile died. When he the last time contributed to a FQXi contest, he was 90 years old. He would certainly appreciate you continuing and further developing his central ideas.

I blame my outdated office program and my worsening eyes for some problems I have with your essay. Maybe your reference 14 on p.1 is just a typo between 1,2,3 and 5,6,7,8 on p.2 ? Maybe I overlooked the mentioned in the abstract name deHaas in the body of your essay. I may also have overlooked several hints in the text to the given references. Perhaps they were not overly important.

Your message is clear and coincides with mine.

Anyway, the 10 by the public so far seems to appreciate your courage.

Having just finished my essay "Semi-fundamental structures", I hope you will get in a few days and use the option for commenting on it. I have not much time for reading essays and selected yours because I recall your exceptionally proficient comments in former contests. Your essay turned out to be closer to mine than to be expected from your abstract.

Best,

Eckard Blumschein

report post as inappropriate

Dear Eckard Blumschein,

Thanks for reading my essay and commenting.

As you note, Phipps participated in FQXi at age 90. Although I communicated with him I had not yet read his book, which made me aware of Hertz's version of Maxwell's equations and their Galilean invariance. Phipps interpretation was clever but confused (in my opinion) by his understanding of quantum mechanics. Nevertheless he inspired me to read Hertz's work and to re-read Einstein's paper. These supported my understanding of time as expressed in the essay, and my understanding of gravity as expressed in previous essays. The timing was perfect; I discovered Phipps after writing the paper An energy-based derivation of Lorentz transformation in one inertial frame which differs from*all special relativity* derivations based on two inertial frames.

Sorry the out of sequence references confused you. Reference 4 was initially in line, but space considerations forced me to move it to the Endnotes (bottom of page 11).

I very much look forward to your essay,

Best regards,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Thanks for reading my essay and commenting.

As you note, Phipps participated in FQXi at age 90. Although I communicated with him I had not yet read his book, which made me aware of Hertz's version of Maxwell's equations and their Galilean invariance. Phipps interpretation was clever but confused (in my opinion) by his understanding of quantum mechanics. Nevertheless he inspired me to read Hertz's work and to re-read Einstein's paper. These supported my understanding of time as expressed in the essay, and my understanding of gravity as expressed in previous essays. The timing was perfect; I discovered Phipps after writing the paper An energy-based derivation of Lorentz transformation in one inertial frame which differs from

Sorry the out of sequence references confused you. Reference 4 was initially in line, but space considerations forced me to move it to the Endnotes (bottom of page 11).

I very much look forward to your essay,

Best regards,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Having now read your essay, I posted the following on your page:

Dear Eckard Blumshein,

A*tour de force!* Congratulations on an incredibly information-dense essay.

I appreciate your beginning with Fourier transforms, without which quantum mechanics surely would not exist. You have for several essays focused on*cosine transforms* providing insight based on your audio work. Your issues concerning *t = 0* are subtle. I do agree that physicists tend to stay away from the foundations of mathematics, some actually considering mathematical structure more fundamental than physics.

You note a truly fundamental assumption besides causality: "*There is only one reality*." My essay treats the fundamental nature of time essential to reality, which is universal simultaneity.

You observe that rigorous formalizations are notorious for causing paradoxes. I observe that**all** special relativity (SR) texts base the derivation of the Lorentz transformation on **two** inertial frames, seeming to impute that the very existence of the Lorentz transformation implies the existence of two (or more) time dimensions, per Einstein. In An Energy-Based Derivation of Lorentz Transformation in One Inertial Frame I prove that two inertial frames are **not** required for the existence of the LT. I believe this is both mathematically and physically significant. In the first place it gets rid of the paradoxes associated with Einstein's 'space-time symmetry'-based "gedanken" experiments [based on railway examples not subject to measurement] while retaining the relativistic [energy] particle physics so well-supported by twentieth century physics.

In a yet-to-be-published a paper I examine Einstein's faulty 'simultaneity detector' based on which he declares "the relativity of simultaneity". Deriving the Lorentz transform in one real world (one inertial frame) argues against multiple time dimensions (and all of the non-intuitive nonsense that depends from this) and leads to the classical understanding of time as universal simultaneity. His denial of this caused Einstein to admit "the**now** worries him seriously." *Universal simultaneity* is, of course, **now**.

CS Peirce, as you note, insisted that "axioms are not*a priori* truths, but synthetic statements." Einstein's two axioms are contradicted by a one-frame derivation of the Lorentz transformation and by local gravity as ether. Again you state (p5) that "*unjustified rigor is to blame for [much] nonsense*." Einstein's rigorous derivation of LT in **two** inertial frames is the basis of much nonsense that vanishes when LT is derived in **one** inertial frame.

I also like your treatment of symmetry. You say "*in reality, symmetries tend to be rarely perfect*." Amen. The SU(3) basis of the *Standard Model* is valid only if masses are equal. In reality the relevant masses differ by two orders of magnitude! Approximate symmetry is all that one finds in the real world.

I also like:

"*Should we try and alternatively deal with some fundamentals of physics from the perspective of elapsed time-span*…". I would apply this to the elapsed time of the cycle of vibration characterizing the energy of the 'clock' mechanism, and the realization that clocks actually measure energy, and only indirectly are measure 'time'. This demolishes Einstein's clock-based derivation of SR, while fully retaining the energy-time basis of relativistic particle physics. Most particle physics occurs in collisions, which obviously occur at one point in time, not in two time dimensions, as per the theology of SR.

You then note that

"Time*t* and circular frequency *w* constitute a pair of conjugate quantities."

That is,*time and energy*! And note that circular frequency is the basis of all clocks!

In conclusion, you say

"*Let's likewise check the historic line of reasoning behind what led to Einstein's special theory of relativity for possibly not justified analogies and generalizations*."

That, of course, is exactly what my essay does. I believe our conclusions are almost identical.

Congratulations on a truly magnificent essay.

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Dear Eckard Blumshein,

A

I appreciate your beginning with Fourier transforms, without which quantum mechanics surely would not exist. You have for several essays focused on

You note a truly fundamental assumption besides causality: "

You observe that rigorous formalizations are notorious for causing paradoxes. I observe that

In a yet-to-be-published a paper I examine Einstein's faulty 'simultaneity detector' based on which he declares "the relativity of simultaneity". Deriving the Lorentz transform in one real world (one inertial frame) argues against multiple time dimensions (and all of the non-intuitive nonsense that depends from this) and leads to the classical understanding of time as universal simultaneity. His denial of this caused Einstein to admit "the

CS Peirce, as you note, insisted that "axioms are not

I also like your treatment of symmetry. You say "

I also like:

"

You then note that

"Time

That is,

In conclusion, you say

"

That, of course, is exactly what my essay does. I believe our conclusions are almost identical.

Congratulations on a truly magnificent essay.

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Ed, I have enjoyed the conversation. Would you please tell me what program you used for the diagrams. Thank you, Chris N.

report post as inappropriate

report post as inappropriate

Dear Chris,

I'm very glad you enjoyed the conversation. I use Wolfram's*Mathematica* for calculations and graphics.

Best regards,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

I'm very glad you enjoyed the conversation. I use Wolfram's

Best regards,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Dear Dr. Klingman,

Your essay is configured as a dialog between Hertz, Einstein, and the Tavern Keeper. So are you the Tavern Keeper? The final line talks about “the fundamental nature of time as universal simultaneity”. But the problem with questioning relativity is that it is embedded in modern technology. GPS would not work without relativity, including corrections due to both general and special relativity.

My view is that relativity is essentially correct, but that space and time are not abstract at all, but rather are embedded in microscopic quantum waves. In my essay, “Fundamental Waves and the Reunification of Physics”, I propose that a set of slight modifications from classical physics can give rise to a consistent unified realistic physical picture on all scales. There are no point particles or gravitational singularities; abstract spacetime and Hilbert space are mathematical artifacts. Electrons are distributed wave packets. Space and time are separate, and are defined by frequency and wavelength of these real waves, which can shift in a gravitational potential.

This agrees with orthodox GR for small gravitational potentials, which is really all that has been measured. Extrapolation to strong gravitational potentials is completely unknown, but there is no reason to accept the presence of any mathematical divergences such as black holes or event horizons. There are certainly collapsed gravitational objects in the center of galaxies, but we actually know very little about their nature.

Alan Kadin

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Your essay is configured as a dialog between Hertz, Einstein, and the Tavern Keeper. So are you the Tavern Keeper? The final line talks about “the fundamental nature of time as universal simultaneity”. But the problem with questioning relativity is that it is embedded in modern technology. GPS would not work without relativity, including corrections due to both general and special relativity.

My view is that relativity is essentially correct, but that space and time are not abstract at all, but rather are embedded in microscopic quantum waves. In my essay, “Fundamental Waves and the Reunification of Physics”, I propose that a set of slight modifications from classical physics can give rise to a consistent unified realistic physical picture on all scales. There are no point particles or gravitational singularities; abstract spacetime and Hilbert space are mathematical artifacts. Electrons are distributed wave packets. Space and time are separate, and are defined by frequency and wavelength of these real waves, which can shift in a gravitational potential.

This agrees with orthodox GR for small gravitational potentials, which is really all that has been measured. Extrapolation to strong gravitational potentials is completely unknown, but there is no reason to accept the presence of any mathematical divergences such as black holes or event horizons. There are certainly collapsed gravitational objects in the center of galaxies, but we actually know very little about their nature.

Alan Kadin

report post as inappropriate

Dear Alan,

Thanks for reading and commenting. I began the year believing SR was simple (the Lorentz transformation, what else?) and that GR was complex. A year of discussion with other physicists has convinced me otherwise. Competent physicists understand so many aspects of special relativity that when they come across one statement that seems to contradict other aspects, they dismiss the statement and stop considering the issue. The point of the essay is that Einstein space-time symmetry is a faulty interpretation of the Lorentz transformation which can correctly be reinterpreted in terms of energy-time conjugation. The Lorentz transformation (which I believe is what you are defending)**does** apply to relativistic particle physics, to the muon, and to GPS, but *it is an energy-time effect, not a space-time effect.*

A key aspect of this is**derivation** of the Lorentz transformation. Einstein, and all relativity textbooks assume **two** time dimensions (inertial frames) to derive LT. In An Energy-Based Derivation of Lorentz Transformation in One Inertial Frame I derive the LT in **one** inertial frame. I hope you will read this. As you are one of the better physicists who frequent FQXi, I hope you will take the problem seriously.

You say the problem is "*GPS will not work without relativity, including corrections due to both general and special relativity*." On page 8 I note that muons, GPS, atomic clocks, and Pound-Rebka are **all** compatible with an energy-time re-interpretation of space-time physics. Your statement actually means that the Lorentz transformation is necessary for twentieth century physics, but many will read it to mean that the "space-time symmetry" interpretation is necessary. It is not. I hope you will reread at least pages 8 and 9, which focus on the nature of clocks. Clocks measure the energy of oscillating systems, which only indirectly translates into time. Einstein's gedanken experiments are based on "perfect clocks" at every point in every inertial frame, ignoring the energy dependence of clocks. That is a fallacious concept. I have one detailed analysis posted [link above] and four more in process to show this in extreme detail.

Of course, questioning relativity is almost a cottage industry, and most physicists categorize every such attempt as futile, but I hope you will attempt to understand my essay rather than dismiss it because you believe it rejects relativistic math -- it does not. It keeps the math while reinterpreting the erroneous physics concept of multiple time dimensions. It is subtle, but it retains the Lorentz transform while rejecting the source of paradox and confusion, Einstein's*space-time symmetry* concept based on multiple time dimensions.

Having spent a year discussing this with quite competent physicists, I know that the tendency is to focus on any particular statement, and tell oneself "that is incompatible with other things I know" and mentally stop at that point. That's when the complexity of SR raises its ugly head. Please believe me that every physicist who has explored this across all SR aspects now agrees with me. I hope you will reread my essay with an open mind, reserving judgment until you have considered all points.

In fact, your second paragraph is almost word for word compatible with my interpretation of clocks and with page 6 in my essay. You say

"*Space and time are separate, and are defined by frequency and wavelength of these real waves, which can shift in a gravitational potential*"

Alan, they shift because of the GR energy difference, and also shift because of the mv**2 SR energy difference. This is the key to understanding my essay.

In short, you are assuming that I reject the special relativistic math. That is not true. I retain the Lorentz math of the SR while I re-interpret the physics of*space-time symmetry* in favor of the physics of *energy-time conjugation*.

I will of course comment on your essay on your page.

My very best regards,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Thanks for reading and commenting. I began the year believing SR was simple (the Lorentz transformation, what else?) and that GR was complex. A year of discussion with other physicists has convinced me otherwise. Competent physicists understand so many aspects of special relativity that when they come across one statement that seems to contradict other aspects, they dismiss the statement and stop considering the issue. The point of the essay is that Einstein space-time symmetry is a faulty interpretation of the Lorentz transformation which can correctly be reinterpreted in terms of energy-time conjugation. The Lorentz transformation (which I believe is what you are defending)

A key aspect of this is

You say the problem is "

Of course, questioning relativity is almost a cottage industry, and most physicists categorize every such attempt as futile, but I hope you will attempt to understand my essay rather than dismiss it because you believe it rejects relativistic math -- it does not. It keeps the math while reinterpreting the erroneous physics concept of multiple time dimensions. It is subtle, but it retains the Lorentz transform while rejecting the source of paradox and confusion, Einstein's

Having spent a year discussing this with quite competent physicists, I know that the tendency is to focus on any particular statement, and tell oneself "that is incompatible with other things I know" and mentally stop at that point. That's when the complexity of SR raises its ugly head. Please believe me that every physicist who has explored this across all SR aspects now agrees with me. I hope you will reread my essay with an open mind, reserving judgment until you have considered all points.

In fact, your second paragraph is almost word for word compatible with my interpretation of clocks and with page 6 in my essay. You say

"

Alan, they shift because of the GR energy difference, and also shift because of the mv**2 SR energy difference. This is the key to understanding my essay.

In short, you are assuming that I reject the special relativistic math. That is not true. I retain the Lorentz math of the SR while I re-interpret the physics of

I will of course comment on your essay on your page.

My very best regards,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Dr. Klingman,

Great essay. Admittedly some of it was above my head but I trust your physics. If I understand, you conclude that time is counted in cycles and is everywhere the same. Is it possible that nature uses time in at least three different ways? Time simply repeats for particles which means their masses are stable and uniform. You discussed what I call cosmological time, time that repeats and counts forward. But time shift we call gamma is used to allow kinetic energy (ke=m/gamma-m) and associated velocity. Time appears to be nature’s primary construction tool and deserves to be called fundamental. Your discussion between ghosts in a tavern shows a supple, creative mind. Congratulations on a fine essay and thank you again for your encouragement.

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Great essay. Admittedly some of it was above my head but I trust your physics. If I understand, you conclude that time is counted in cycles and is everywhere the same. Is it possible that nature uses time in at least three different ways? Time simply repeats for particles which means their masses are stable and uniform. You discussed what I call cosmological time, time that repeats and counts forward. But time shift we call gamma is used to allow kinetic energy (ke=m/gamma-m) and associated velocity. Time appears to be nature’s primary construction tool and deserves to be called fundamental. Your discussion between ghosts in a tavern shows a supple, creative mind. Congratulations on a fine essay and thank you again for your encouragement.

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Dear Gene Barbee,

Thanks for your kind thoughts. You understand me to say that "*time is counted in cycles and is everywhere the same*." You are correct and have boiled the argument down to the essentials. All clocks count cycles (examples in essay). The cycle is inverse frequency and, since Einstein, we know that energy is related to frequency and frequency to inverse time. Hence

*cycles ~ inverse frequency ~ inverse (inverse time) ~ time*.

So clocks measure energy which is indirectly related to time. That is, clocks do not directly measure time. Einstein's 'perfect clocks' were assumed to measure time perfectly, and his (faulty) concept of multiple time frames and (faulty) concepts of perfect clocks were logically extended into areas (such as railway cars) where experiments to prove or disprove his logic were impossible, hence "gedanken" experiments, deriving results based on the valid logic of faulty principles. This is why Einstein states in his 1905 paper that his theory is derived "*with the help of certain imaginary experiments.*"

Thanks again for reading and commenting so astutely.

Best regards,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Thanks for your kind thoughts. You understand me to say that "

So clocks measure energy which is indirectly related to time. That is, clocks do not directly measure time. Einstein's 'perfect clocks' were assumed to measure time perfectly, and his (faulty) concept of multiple time frames and (faulty) concepts of perfect clocks were logically extended into areas (such as railway cars) where experiments to prove or disprove his logic were impossible, hence "gedanken" experiments, deriving results based on the valid logic of faulty principles. This is why Einstein states in his 1905 paper that his theory is derived "

Thanks again for reading and commenting so astutely.

Best regards,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Dear all,

Let me appreciate Klingman's carefully chosen wording. When proponents of SR are using the word gedanken, they usually understand it as "Gedankenexperiment" while a Gedanken is simply athought.

I personally dislike this habit and similar ones:

It is almost mandatory to write Galileo or even galileo if Galileo Galilei is meant, just because his father was not entirely unknown.

Michelson designed, performed, and published a first important experiment with the so called null result in Potsdam 1881 and a merely technically improved version of it in Cleveland 1887, the latter one in cooperation with Morley. Already the first one challenged the experts. Hence, I feel the abbreviation MMX a bit inappropriate.

Incidentally, as a German, I am not quite sure how to translate astute.

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Let me appreciate Klingman's carefully chosen wording. When proponents of SR are using the word gedanken, they usually understand it as "Gedankenexperiment" while a Gedanken is simply athought.

I personally dislike this habit and similar ones:

It is almost mandatory to write Galileo or even galileo if Galileo Galilei is meant, just because his father was not entirely unknown.

Michelson designed, performed, and published a first important experiment with the so called null result in Potsdam 1881 and a merely technically improved version of it in Cleveland 1887, the latter one in cooperation with Morley. Already the first one challenged the experts. Hence, I feel the abbreviation MMX a bit inappropriate.

Incidentally, as a German, I am not quite sure how to translate astute.

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Ed,

Here is something for you to ponder. The relativistic energy equation can be decomposed into the following quaternion conjugate pair:

Q = m_0*c^2 + pc

Q^ = m_0*c^2 - pc

where m_0 and c are scalars and p is a vector

This then leads to a quaternion conjugate pair for momentum:

P = m_0*c + p

P* = m_0*c - p

This then leads to a quaternion conjugate pair for velocity:

V = c + v

V* = c - v

where v is a vector.

It is hard for me to believe that this is a coincidence.

Best Regards and Good Luck,

Gary Simpson

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Here is something for you to ponder. The relativistic energy equation can be decomposed into the following quaternion conjugate pair:

Q = m_0*c^2 + pc

Q^ = m_0*c^2 - pc

where m_0 and c are scalars and p is a vector

This then leads to a quaternion conjugate pair for momentum:

P = m_0*c + p

P* = m_0*c - p

This then leads to a quaternion conjugate pair for velocity:

V = c + v

V* = c - v

where v is a vector.

It is hard for me to believe that this is a coincidence.

Best Regards and Good Luck,

Gary Simpson

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Edwin

This was an interesting and thoughtful essay. Yes, Einstein was wrong by not allowing clocks to be wrong. Although all theories must be true internally they must nevertheless be treated as approximations in relation to reality, since we must test them and tests produce always errors. There may for instance be hidden variables.

Since stellar aberration and MMX are useless in relation to the ether wind we must use measurements of 1-way speed of light as we have done for decades in the GPS system, and also in Sagnac's test. To explain gravity the ether must be falling. We cannot do that the bending of nothing.

Stokes assumed mirrors in MMX to define the vector sum ether wind and wave velocity. In reality mirrors have relevance only for moving oscillations in light, but not for the static assymetry in ether that we call ether wind. So, Stokes' invention (effect in transverse arm) is in error. Lorentz did not DISCOVER this, but instead INVENTED time dilation, and Einstein bought the idea.

Einstein INVENTED an explanation by starting with the same speed in relation to ALL inertial observers.

The first error by Stokes resulted in lots of errors and more errors to explain the earlier errors. The confusion was started by Stokes.

Regards from _________________ John-Erik

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This was an interesting and thoughtful essay. Yes, Einstein was wrong by not allowing clocks to be wrong. Although all theories must be true internally they must nevertheless be treated as approximations in relation to reality, since we must test them and tests produce always errors. There may for instance be hidden variables.

Since stellar aberration and MMX are useless in relation to the ether wind we must use measurements of 1-way speed of light as we have done for decades in the GPS system, and also in Sagnac's test. To explain gravity the ether must be falling. We cannot do that the bending of nothing.

Stokes assumed mirrors in MMX to define the vector sum ether wind and wave velocity. In reality mirrors have relevance only for moving oscillations in light, but not for the static assymetry in ether that we call ether wind. So, Stokes' invention (effect in transverse arm) is in error. Lorentz did not DISCOVER this, but instead INVENTED time dilation, and Einstein bought the idea.

Einstein INVENTED an explanation by starting with the same speed in relation to ALL inertial observers.

The first error by Stokes resulted in lots of errors and more errors to explain the earlier errors. The confusion was started by Stokes.

Regards from _________________ John-Erik

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Dear John-Erik Persson,

I posted the following on your page:

I enjoyed your essay and agree that theoretical physics today depends on more than 100-year-old assumptions and interpretations of experiments, some of which are in error. Like you, I feel that perhaps the easiest way to advance physics is to reveal old fundamental errors.

You discuss too many physical phenomena for me to critique, so I will focus on those aspects on which I believe we agree. For example, you state that

"*Instead of by time dilation, observed effects must be explained by clock behavior*."

Any analysis of atomic clocks must be based on clocks counting cycles, which are inversely related to time, while (per Einstein) frequency is directly related to energy. Thus**clocks measure energy directly and time only indirectly**. Einstein's idea of 'perfect clocks', located at every point in the moving frame and perfectly synchronized, is an erroneous idea. Formulated long before the development of atomic clocks (the only ones that show relativistic effects) Einstein might be forgiven his mistake, but why hold onto it?

You note that the "*Lorentz transform is based on the absurd assumption that light moves with the same speed in relation to all observers moving with constant, but different speeds*." Of course Rindler, whose name is associated with several aspects of special relativity, agrees with this, and I discuss this in detail in my essay.

Like you, I feel that Faraday's pedestal could be raised much higher.

You also note that experiments that detect the ether wind based on rotation of the planet surely cannot be interpreted to "*assume our own planet to entrain the ether in the whole universe*." I propose that **light propagates in local gravity**, and that this is compatible both with MM's null result and with the motion of clocks circling earth in opposite directions. I suspect that when you say that

"*Such an ether wind can explain gravity as well*",

you are in agreement with the fact that

"*Local gravity can explain ether*"

as detailed in my essay.

You note the absurdity of the twins paradox, which is a logical consequence of 'space-time symmetry' that vanishes in an 'energy-time conjugate' formalism (while retaining relativistic particle physics quite well) and note (as I do) that an older, wiser Einstein said "physics without ether is unthinkable."

You develop the idea of "falling ether", then state that "this falling ether describes gravity". I would respectfully suggest that the concept of "gravity as local ether" satisfies the goals you have in mind, but perhaps I need to study your essay more closely.

In any event, we are almost identical in our analysis of the problem, and I think in general agreement in our solutions.

I hope you enjoy my essay as much as I have enjoyed yours.

My very best regards,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

I posted the following on your page:

I enjoyed your essay and agree that theoretical physics today depends on more than 100-year-old assumptions and interpretations of experiments, some of which are in error. Like you, I feel that perhaps the easiest way to advance physics is to reveal old fundamental errors.

You discuss too many physical phenomena for me to critique, so I will focus on those aspects on which I believe we agree. For example, you state that

"

Any analysis of atomic clocks must be based on clocks counting cycles, which are inversely related to time, while (per Einstein) frequency is directly related to energy. Thus

You note that the "

Like you, I feel that Faraday's pedestal could be raised much higher.

You also note that experiments that detect the ether wind based on rotation of the planet surely cannot be interpreted to "

"

you are in agreement with the fact that

"

as detailed in my essay.

You note the absurdity of the twins paradox, which is a logical consequence of 'space-time symmetry' that vanishes in an 'energy-time conjugate' formalism (while retaining relativistic particle physics quite well) and note (as I do) that an older, wiser Einstein said "physics without ether is unthinkable."

You develop the idea of "falling ether", then state that "this falling ether describes gravity". I would respectfully suggest that the concept of "gravity as local ether" satisfies the goals you have in mind, but perhaps I need to study your essay more closely.

In any event, we are almost identical in our analysis of the problem, and I think in general agreement in our solutions.

I hope you enjoy my essay as much as I have enjoyed yours.

My very best regards,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Edwin

You said: LIGHT PROPAGATES IN LOCAL GRAVITY and I say LIGHT AS WELL AS GRAVITY PROPAGATES IN THE ETHER. This means a slight difference. I regard gravity as a static situation in the ether, and light as moving oscillations in the ether.

From _____________ John-Erik

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You said: LIGHT PROPAGATES IN LOCAL GRAVITY and I say LIGHT AS WELL AS GRAVITY PROPAGATES IN THE ETHER. This means a slight difference. I regard gravity as a static situation in the ether, and light as moving oscillations in the ether.

From _____________ John-Erik

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Klingman,

“‘Clocks’ are always implemented as ‘cycle counters' so clocks actually measure energy, not time.”

- I would submit that a clock indicates the local rate of evolution of spontaneous processes all happening according to the local rate of time evolution....

Good stuff! You deal with the history

Marcel,

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“‘Clocks’ are always implemented as ‘cycle counters' so clocks actually measure energy, not time.”

- I would submit that a clock indicates the local rate of evolution of spontaneous processes all happening according to the local rate of time evolution....

Good stuff! You deal with the history

Marcel,

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Dear Marcel-Marie Lebel,

It's great to see you back in the contest. I've always felt that your 2009 essay "*Physics stops were natural metaphysics starts*" is one of the best of the hundreds of FQXi essays over the last decade. Your definition of truth as absence of choice, and use of this definition to develop logic is simply superb. Then, as now, you argue that one 'substance' exists by itself; the same point is made in my 2009 essay. This is where we diverge. You believe this 'substance' is time; I believe the substance is gravity. We both are faced with the problem of evolving our universe as we know it from this basic substance. That has, in one way or another, been the focus of many of my essays.

My current essay addresses the non-intuitive concept of "the relativity of simultaneity". If the universe is happening*now*, I believe that 'now' must mean *universal simultaneity*. Having spent much of this year reviewing the history of special relativity (and Einstein's later 'second thoughts') I conclude that an energy-time interpretation of (clock-based) reality is preferred to the 'space-time symmetry' interpretation, and is compatible with relativistic particle physics of the twentieth century.

Einstein claims "*there is no space absent of field*" which seems to place 'field' as the fundamental substance, leaving 'space' as an abstract category of 'empty container'. Of course Einstein mixes time and space as a 4D-entity while Hertz and others imply 3D-space plus 1D-time.

You quote Unruh as presenting 'time' as something that does exist by itself. He notes "*gravity does not cause time to run differently in different places*…". This, and his following remarks are based on space-time symmetry. In my view it is the idea of time as measured by 'perfect clocks' that is in error. Time flows equably, not faster some places, slower others. Local energy of moving systems does however vary from place to place, and since clocks count cycles and thus measure energy, then it is false to conclude, as is done, that

"We know that time does run slower closer to the ground."

This is the standard GR-based misinterpretation of the Pound-Rebka experiment. It leads to all the space-time symmetry paradoxes of SR. The universe 'happens' at the same rate everywhere, but local vibrations are energy dependent and vary from place to place. To compare the interplay of logic in gravity, versus your treatment of logic and time, is impossible in a comment. I do enjoy your thinking, and always love your essays.

My best regards,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

It's great to see you back in the contest. I've always felt that your 2009 essay "

My current essay addresses the non-intuitive concept of "the relativity of simultaneity". If the universe is happening

Einstein claims "

You quote Unruh as presenting 'time' as something that does exist by itself. He notes "

"We know that time does run slower closer to the ground."

This is the standard GR-based misinterpretation of the Pound-Rebka experiment. It leads to all the space-time symmetry paradoxes of SR. The universe 'happens' at the same rate everywhere, but local vibrations are energy dependent and vary from place to place. To compare the interplay of logic in gravity, versus your treatment of logic and time, is impossible in a comment. I do enjoy your thinking, and always love your essays.

My best regards,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Edwin,

I thought I would offer up some outsiders arguments for a presentist view of time, that you might find useful.

Our minds function as flashes of perception and so we think of time as the point of the present, moving from past to future. Consequently this is the basis of narrative, history and civilization.

The reality is that it is change turning future to past, as...

view entire post

I thought I would offer up some outsiders arguments for a presentist view of time, that you might find useful.

Our minds function as flashes of perception and so we think of time as the point of the present, moving from past to future. Consequently this is the basis of narrative, history and civilization.

The reality is that it is change turning future to past, as...

view entire post

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Dear John Merryman,

Thanks for your comments. The presentist view of time, as I understand it, is that things are happening**now**. The future is an abstraction, with no physical reality. So to speak of the reality of change turning "future" into past, seems to perceive an abstraction as real. I do not view the "past" as real [i.e., as actually existing] but it is at least reflected in 'records' or 'echoes' that *do* exist now.

Einstein dismissed simultaneity by inventing new time dimensions, which he 'attached' to moving objects, along with new coordinate systems. It is this invention of new time dimensions that demolishes time as universal simultaneity. His reason for doing this was never explained. I conjecture about this in my essay.

You say '*events are first in the present, then in the past*." This is mathematically 'reasonable' but I think presentism views 'events' as happening only **now**. Physical reality is the existing 'record' of earlier events, but those events are not "in the past". The idea of direction of an abstraction flowing into abstraction, **is** an abstraction, and thus a matter of choice.

Having suffered over a century of "*the relativity of simultaneity*", it is difficult for physicists today to perceive time in the classical manner, while it is ridiculously easy to 'represent' time as one of four dimensions. The fact that the Minkowski formalism accurately maps relativistic particle physics in an *energy-time* perspective yet leads to nonsense in the *space-time symmetry* perspective seems to argue for the energy-time conjugation as the physically most appropriate model. But this is, of course, swimming against the current.

You say energy "exists in the present" and is "constantly creating new information". I agree that information is created when energy changes local structure, thus creating a 'record' that is 'in-formation'. This occurs independently of whether one considers it flowing from one abstraction to another abstraction. I think Omar Khayyam captured the essence of presentism:

"*The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,*

Moves on; nor all thy Piety nor wit

Shall lure it back to cancel half a line,

Nor all thy tears wash out a Word of it."

Best regards,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Thanks for your comments. The presentist view of time, as I understand it, is that things are happening

Einstein dismissed simultaneity by inventing new time dimensions, which he 'attached' to moving objects, along with new coordinate systems. It is this invention of new time dimensions that demolishes time as universal simultaneity. His reason for doing this was never explained. I conjecture about this in my essay.

You say '

Having suffered over a century of "

You say energy "exists in the present" and is "constantly creating new information". I agree that information is created when energy changes local structure, thus creating a 'record' that is 'in-formation'. This occurs independently of whether one considers it flowing from one abstraction to another abstraction. I think Omar Khayyam captured the essence of presentism:

"

Moves on; nor all thy Piety nor wit

Shall lure it back to cancel half a line,

Nor all thy tears wash out a Word of it

Best regards,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Edwin,

We are in agreement. My point about events being present then past isn't to argue for a physical present, but to argue against determinism. The past irrevocably leads to present, events occur and then recede. That it isn't the present "flowing" from past to future, but events "flowing" through the present. So it is the occurrence of events that calculates the input and determines the outcome.

Obviously the conceptual problem here is that our mental processes are temporally based, just as our physical existence is a fundamental manifestation of the thermodynamic environment in which we evolved. So trying to express anything involves the effect of sequence.

I just submitted an essay, after having put it off, up until writing it out a few days ago.

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We are in agreement. My point about events being present then past isn't to argue for a physical present, but to argue against determinism. The past irrevocably leads to present, events occur and then recede. That it isn't the present "flowing" from past to future, but events "flowing" through the present. So it is the occurrence of events that calculates the input and determines the outcome.

Obviously the conceptual problem here is that our mental processes are temporally based, just as our physical existence is a fundamental manifestation of the thermodynamic environment in which we evolved. So trying to express anything involves the effect of sequence.

I just submitted an essay, after having put it off, up until writing it out a few days ago.

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Ed,

If you have the time, take a look at the essay by Declan Trail. He produced an EPR result based upon classical assumptions that is similar to the result you produced for a previous essay.

Best Regards,

Gary Simpson

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*A slightly more fleshed-our comment on Declan Andrew Traill's page:*

I am in full agreement with you that entanglement, "**a nonlocal process inaccessible to the classical world**", is a most serious problem facing those who wish a comprehensible universe. Like you, I find it possible to produce a classical model that violates Bell's theorem. In the following I will try to compare our two results, both of which lead to the 'impossible' result.

You propose an**angle-dependent detection probability**. If all hits are detected, then all hits count as +1 or -1 (in the QM theory). If certain hits are missed, this effectively lowers the 'average' reading (for that angle) to a number below +1 (or above -1). This lowering of the average value is effected by the **cos(a.b)** term.

The +1 and -1 come from Bell's very first statement**defining** the problem, and reflects the consensus interpretation of the quantum mechanics of spin as a half integral "nonclassical" phenomenon. Your essentially classical model seems to accept the QM interpretation of spin as a two-state entity, which is generally true from spin statistics and magnetic fields, but has never been proved or experimentally demonstrated for single spins in magnetic-field-free space.

In my classical model the 'hidden variable' is simply the 3D nature of spin which yields an**angle-dependent deflection** that matches the Stern-Gerlach data which has the well-known 'lip' pattern. My Stern-Gerlach-based model assumes 'perfect' detection since none of the atoms are lost; all atoms reach the target. But the registered spin component is less than +1, dependent on the initial angle the spin makes with the magnetic field. This yields **exactly** the **cos(a.b)** curve that Bell claims is impossible to achieve classically. It's only impossible when one forces all projections of atoms through the Stern-Gerlach apparatus to be maximum or minimum. Of course, the data shows that the atoms **are** deflected over a range of angles, but why be picky about experimental data that doesn't match a theory? Better to assume experimental error or some type of 'noise'.

Finally, a key problem in Bell tests derives from the fact that Bell's initial analysis (and the Stern-Gerlach experiment) are based on neutral atoms, while**all** Bell tests are based on photon detection, which, as you point out, are not perfect. I have some ideas about how to translate from atomic phenomena (SG) to photonic phenomena (Bell tests) but your approach is physically reasonable, and may actually be correct for photons. Thanks for a very interesting essay.

Best regards,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

If you have the time, take a look at the essay by Declan Trail. He produced an EPR result based upon classical assumptions that is similar to the result you produced for a previous essay.

Best Regards,

Gary Simpson

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Hi Gary,

Thanks for the heads up. I had read Declan's essay, but not yet responded to it.

Declan proposes an angle-dependent detection probability. If all hits are detected, then all hits count as +1 or -1 (in the QM theory). If certain hits are missed, this effectively lowers the 'average' reading to a number below +1 (or above -1). The +1 and -1 come from Bell's very first...

view entire post

Thanks for the heads up. I had read Declan's essay, but not yet responded to it.

Declan proposes an angle-dependent detection probability. If all hits are detected, then all hits count as +1 or -1 (in the QM theory). If certain hits are missed, this effectively lowers the 'average' reading to a number below +1 (or above -1). The +1 and -1 come from Bell's very first...

view entire post

I am in full agreement with you that entanglement, "

You propose an

The +1 and -1 come from Bell's very first statement

In my classical model the 'hidden variable' is simply the 3D nature of spin which yields an

Finally, a key problem in Bell tests derives from the fact that Bell's initial analysis (and the Stern-Gerlach experiment) are based on neutral atoms, while

Best regards,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Dear Dr. Edwin Eugene Klingman,

My research has concluded that Nature must have devised the only permanent real structure of the Universe obtainable for the real Universe existed for millions of years before man and his finite complex informational systems ever appeared on earth. The real physical Universe consists only of one single unified VISIBLE infinite surface occurring eternally in one single infinite dimension that am always illuminated mostly by finite non-surface light.

Joe Fisher, ORCID ID 0000-0003-3988-8687. Unaffiliated

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My research has concluded that Nature must have devised the only permanent real structure of the Universe obtainable for the real Universe existed for millions of years before man and his finite complex informational systems ever appeared on earth. The real physical Universe consists only of one single unified VISIBLE infinite surface occurring eternally in one single infinite dimension that am always illuminated mostly by finite non-surface light.

Joe Fisher, ORCID ID 0000-0003-3988-8687. Unaffiliated

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Having written previous essays on Bell's theorem and Stern-Gerlach, I am pleased to see both Anton Garrett's essay and Declan Andrew Traill's essay in this contest. I wrote the following comment on Anton's page:

Literally thousands of comments have been spent on FQXi concerning Bell's theorem, which, as you state, "**is about logic, not quantum mechanics**". Bell's first statement *defining the problem* is his equation (1) in which he defines measurements A and B to have +/- unit values. *The logical outcome is completely determined from this point!*

Bell essentially asks for a "classical" explanation [the 'hidden variable'] while insisting on a "quantum" result.**Stern-Gerlach did not find "quantum" results**. Their deflection data is smeared over an upper "lip" and a lower "lip" which are arbitrarily called +1 and -1 to fit the naïve quantum picture of spin. But **which picture? Pauli's, Dirac's, Feynman's?** As you obviously spent time and effort on this topic I hope you might look at Spin: Newton, Maxwell, Einstein, Dirac, Bell.

Pauli conveniently chose half integral eigenvalues, which Bell uses unquestioningly, while Dirac, who many think more fundamental, derived a four component equation that is**no longer an eigenvalue equation**. Indeed, it is only "converted into" an eigenvalue equation by the Foldy-Wouthuysen transformation which smears the particle with spin over a region of space. Only after this integration do we arrive at a Dirac-based eigenvalue equation.

Perhaps if Bell had thought more deeply about spin he would've had more reservations than he did about this issue. Unfortunately, about the same time Bell developed his theorem, Feynman, deeply in love with the two slit experiment, decided to apply the analogy to Stern-Gerlach-as-two-slit and [of course!] the two state "wave function" worked. [What a surprise -- Pauli invented a workable 'wave-function' when he used**O|+> = +|+>** and **O|-> = -|->**.] Thus deBroglie's linear momentum-based wave function, with wavelength proportional to inverse momentum, compatible with experimental tests, was conceptually extended to angular momentum, with no logical justification for associating a wavelength with electron spin. [Spin waves in condensed matter or solid-state physics are **not** spin wave functions.] But, like Einstein, it is today verboten to question Feynman, so we are stuck with "wave functions" for spin analogous to wave functions for particles with momentum. This leads to superposition concepts for particles going through non-homogeneous fields that are entirely inappropriate but unquestioned, although never demonstrated.

Nino says: "*I presume physicists… are now looking for a theory that predicts what happens each time you put a particle through successive Stern-Gerlach apparatuses*."

Neo answers: "*Actually we are not*."

Actually we are. Or were. Two other physicists and myself [one received the*National Medal of Technology* at the White House in 2014] began this experiment in 2015. We produced fine healthy silver atomic beams but finally decided that **single atom detectors** were far beyond our resources.

If the first SG detector is used to prepare atoms from the oven in a particular state, say + (up), and the second SG detector is offset at angle theta from the first, then the deflection of the particle from the second device will be a factor of theta.

Here's the kicker: according to my theory (which does violate Bell's theorem classically) only + particles will be detected from the second SG device. According to Feynman's two slit spin analogy, the wave function will predict some - states will be found.

If spin is actually 3D, then the deflection of SG can be shown to depend on the angle between the spin and the field. This is what is actually seen in the SG data. But as you imply, no one wants to test this. Even suggesting it is to be drummed out of the corps.

But if spin is actually 3D, then the measured deflection is**not** +1 or -1 but is ~cos(theta). This conflicts with Bell's definition A,B= +/-1. Using real theta-based measurement results (i.e., deflection) it is easy to show the correlation **cos(a.b)**. Using Bell's +1 or -1 constraints it is logically (not physically) impossible.

In Modern Classical Spin Dynamics see figure 6 on page 20 wherein the classical model overlays SG data almost exactly, and in Bell was simply wrong see page 6 where the energy-exchange model is shown to yield**cos(a.b)** while the Bell-constrained version cannot accomplish this.

So, to repeat, if one accepts Bell's requirement that measurements be +1 or -1 , instead of actual deflection seen in the SG data, then one is logically bound to fail. If one allows actual deflection data the classical model obtains the quantum correlation**cos(a.b)** violating Bell's theorem and removing even the suggestion of "entanglement".

This is further complicated by loose thinking, such as Nino's statement "*but nevertheless only one of the detectors actually goes off*." If this is applied to Stern-Gerlach, it means only that every particle is deflected up or down based on initial state, but does **not** imply A,B= +/-1. On the other hand, Bell is not tested with SG atoms but with photons which are detected (+1) or not (0).

Due to Feynman's beloved two-slit-spin-analogy, people consider atomic spin wave functions and photon wave functions to be the same, thus on/off photon detection results are conflated with the SG deflection results. Confusion reigns.

Nino says "*quantization is indeed a mental rather than a physical procedure*." Bell forces classical physics into a quantized mold that is mental rather than physical. When this artificially constrained logical problem leads to the conclusion that classical physics cannot yield the measured correlation we invented "entanglement". This nonlocality that has ruled physics for fifty years is a farce, but one which cannot be challenged without forfeiting one's establishment position. The natives *should* be restless.

Congratulations on a very fine essay,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Literally thousands of comments have been spent on FQXi concerning Bell's theorem, which, as you state, "

Bell essentially asks for a "classical" explanation [the 'hidden variable'] while insisting on a "quantum" result.

Pauli conveniently chose half integral eigenvalues, which Bell uses unquestioningly, while Dirac, who many think more fundamental, derived a four component equation that is

Perhaps if Bell had thought more deeply about spin he would've had more reservations than he did about this issue. Unfortunately, about the same time Bell developed his theorem, Feynman, deeply in love with the two slit experiment, decided to apply the analogy to Stern-Gerlach-as-two-slit and [of course!] the two state "wave function" worked. [What a surprise -- Pauli invented a workable 'wave-function' when he used

Nino says: "

Neo answers: "

Actually we are. Or were. Two other physicists and myself [one received the

If the first SG detector is used to prepare atoms from the oven in a particular state, say + (up), and the second SG detector is offset at angle theta from the first, then the deflection of the particle from the second device will be a factor of theta.

Here's the kicker: according to my theory (which does violate Bell's theorem classically) only + particles will be detected from the second SG device. According to Feynman's two slit spin analogy, the wave function will predict some - states will be found.

If spin is actually 3D, then the deflection of SG can be shown to depend on the angle between the spin and the field. This is what is actually seen in the SG data. But as you imply, no one wants to test this. Even suggesting it is to be drummed out of the corps.

But if spin is actually 3D, then the measured deflection is

In Modern Classical Spin Dynamics see figure 6 on page 20 wherein the classical model overlays SG data almost exactly, and in Bell was simply wrong see page 6 where the energy-exchange model is shown to yield

So, to repeat, if one accepts Bell's requirement that measurements be +1 or -1 , instead of actual deflection seen in the SG data, then one is logically bound to fail. If one allows actual deflection data the classical model obtains the quantum correlation

This is further complicated by loose thinking, such as Nino's statement "

Due to Feynman's beloved two-slit-spin-analogy, people consider atomic spin wave functions and photon wave functions to be the same, thus on/off photon detection results are conflated with the SG deflection results. Confusion reigns.

Nino says "

Congratulations on a very fine essay,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Edwin,

I just read your essay, as promised.

There is a lot in there (a bit early in th morning for me to process it all I fear!).

Your essay is very interesting and also a novel and innovative format.

I don’t have time at the moment to leave a longer comment, but well done on a fine essay!!

Regards,

Declan

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I just read your essay, as promised.

There is a lot in there (a bit early in th morning for me to process it all I fear!).

Your essay is very interesting and also a novel and innovative format.

I don’t have time at the moment to leave a longer comment, but well done on a fine essay!!

Regards,

Declan

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Thank you for reading my essay.

I find your essay interesting.

I wrote something similar a few years ago

where k is Coulomb's constant, and this could be the Maxwell's equations at high energy, with the same low energy approximation.

Regards

Domenico

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I find your essay interesting.

I wrote something similar a few years ago

where k is Coulomb's constant, and this could be the Maxwell's equations at high energy, with the same low energy approximation.

Regards

Domenico

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It is impossible!! The (verified) latex interpreter make many errors:

I try to write the equation without web interpreter.

Regards

Domenico

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I try to write the equation without web interpreter.

Regards

Domenico

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I give up:

R_{munu}-frac{1}{2}g_{munu}R=frac{8pi(-k)}{c^4}

each person that write in latex understand this equation

Sorry

Domenico

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R_{munu}-frac{1}{2}g_{munu}R=frac{8pi(-k)}{c^4}

each person that write in latex understand this equation

Sorry

Domenico

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Edwin,

Nice essay. Fun format and moot points to your usual excellent standard (though AE didn't get much of a word in!) Of course I agree local 'ether' frames, but Einstein didn't get a chance (or forgot) to mention his key final concepts (1952 'Addendum'). Which I agree, and relate to your p5 'boxes'. Please advise what's wrong with this;

1. First do away with the 1st (bottom left)...

view entire post

Nice essay. Fun format and moot points to your usual excellent standard (though AE didn't get much of a word in!) Of course I agree local 'ether' frames, but Einstein didn't get a chance (or forgot) to mention his key final concepts (1952 'Addendum'). Which I agree, and relate to your p5 'boxes'. Please advise what's wrong with this;

1. First do away with the 1st (bottom left)...

view entire post

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Dear Peter,

Thanks for your comments. I will address them one by one.

1. The "boxes" are*reference frames*, so it makes no sense to do away with the rest frame. They're translucent, and, while redundant, I think the visual image of the frame is appropriate. An invisible depiction of space is potentially misleading. In any case, it *changes nothing physical*.

2. You are**adding layers of physical entities that do not exist**, are unnecessary, and simply complicate the issue. (I've yet to discuss this theory with a true relativist who did not wish to redefine the problem immediately into terms he was comfortable with, almost always in terms of *two inertial frames*.) Your first paper, which impressed me greatly, dealt with plasmas in space, but there are no plasmas in this problem.

3. The 'ambient medium' is the*local gravitational field*, and the behavior is completely defined by the Maxwell-Hertz equations. All signals do **not** do c locally, since one of the frames is defined to be moving with respect to the local gravity.

4. Forget (box-car-like) "in the train" and use open flat-cars. The light moves with speed c in the local gravitational field (associated with the railway station and/or tracks). If by "local train rest frame" you mean the moving flatcar, then it does**not** do c in the flat-car's rest frame. That's the point!

5. There is**no** transition zone in the perfect vacuum (filled with gravitational field, but no plasma). So this point is moot.

In short, your ideas of plasma-filled space are very likely valid for interplanetary and even interstellar space but have zero application or relevance to electromagnetic propagation in the local gravitational field. After 100 years of special relativity based on "two inertial frames" (leading to Lorentz) it takes some mental work to re-conceptualize as "one inertial frame" (with energy-based Lorentz). My essay does**not** describe the 'discrete field model' and does not fit into your above comments, but I very much appreciate your taking the effort to transpose it to such a framework.

Thanks again for your gracious comments.

My very best regards

Edwin Eugene Klingman

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Thanks for your comments. I will address them one by one.

1. The "boxes" are

2. You are

3. The 'ambient medium' is the

4. Forget (box-car-like) "in the train" and use open flat-cars. The light moves with speed c in the local gravitational field (associated with the railway station and/or tracks). If by "local train rest frame" you mean the moving flatcar, then it does

5. There is

In short, your ideas of plasma-filled space are very likely valid for interplanetary and even interstellar space but have zero application or relevance to electromagnetic propagation in the local gravitational field. After 100 years of special relativity based on "two inertial frames" (leading to Lorentz) it takes some mental work to re-conceptualize as "one inertial frame" (with energy-based Lorentz). My essay does

Thanks again for your gracious comments.

My very best regards

Edwin Eugene Klingman

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Edwin,

Yes, thanks. I understand you don't agree Einstein's final conceptions, or free fermions around all bodies increasing with v, as Unruh, probes etc. (Though I assure and can show you that IS what's universally found!) But we must all focus on and follow our own paths with all rigor, and close agreement isn't a valid scoring criteria! (you do excellently on those!).

Your approach is very interesting and I agree the local 'gravity' view may help acceptability in many eyes. For myself I most strongly 'usefulness' i.e. in logically resolving anomalous effects. I've found that in extremis in the 're-emission at local 'c' schema, including the full ontology behind Declans code, and have looked for it hard in the tavern but you'll have to help me.

Last questions to help me rationalise your view and falsify mine;

1. Will fermions absorb and re-emit ('requantize') EM energy in your schema?

2. If so, may the re-emission be at c in each centre of mass rest frame, or what other speed would each electron select, and why?

Great chat. Another beer?

Peter

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Yes, thanks. I understand you don't agree Einstein's final conceptions, or free fermions around all bodies increasing with v, as Unruh, probes etc. (Though I assure and can show you that IS what's universally found!) But we must all focus on and follow our own paths with all rigor, and close agreement isn't a valid scoring criteria! (you do excellently on those!).

Your approach is very interesting and I agree the local 'gravity' view may help acceptability in many eyes. For myself I most strongly 'usefulness' i.e. in logically resolving anomalous effects. I've found that in extremis in the 're-emission at local 'c' schema, including the full ontology behind Declans code, and have looked for it hard in the tavern but you'll have to help me.

Last questions to help me rationalise your view and falsify mine;

1. Will fermions absorb and re-emit ('requantize') EM energy in your schema?

2. If so, may the re-emission be at c in each centre of mass rest frame, or what other speed would each electron select, and why?

Great chat. Another beer?

Peter

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Hi Peter,

I'm not sure whether you believe low velocity motion creates fermions, or whether you're assuming the existence of fermions everywhere, so it's kind of hard to respond to your first point.

Local gravity is not designed to "help acceptability"; it either serves as the medium for electromagnetic propagation or not. Since gravity exists everywhere, it clearly is available to serve this function. And since it deflects light, it is not just an inert presence. My opinion is that the fermion and plasma aspects you focus on are not relevant to my essay, and if you wish to reframe everything in your own conceptual terms, you will probably miss the point.

In answer to your questions:

1. If fermions absorb and reemit EM energy in reality, then this will happen whenever fermions are present. Fermions are not assumed to be present in the gravitational field in question.

2. Light emitted at any point will travel with speed c in the local gravity, independent of the speed of the "center of mass rest frame" (unless it is the center of mass that is the dominant source of gravity.) If the frame you are interested in is moving with velocity v in the local gravitational field, then the relative velocity will be v + c. Einstein imagined that c is*attached to* every moving reference frame. This was an invention of his that solved his immediate problem while destroying our intuitive notions of time.

Why not have another beer?

Best regards,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

I'm not sure whether you believe low velocity motion creates fermions, or whether you're assuming the existence of fermions everywhere, so it's kind of hard to respond to your first point.

Local gravity is not designed to "help acceptability"; it either serves as the medium for electromagnetic propagation or not. Since gravity exists everywhere, it clearly is available to serve this function. And since it deflects light, it is not just an inert presence. My opinion is that the fermion and plasma aspects you focus on are not relevant to my essay, and if you wish to reframe everything in your own conceptual terms, you will probably miss the point.

In answer to your questions:

1. If fermions absorb and reemit EM energy in reality, then this will happen whenever fermions are present. Fermions are not assumed to be present in the gravitational field in question.

2. Light emitted at any point will travel with speed c in the local gravity, independent of the speed of the "center of mass rest frame" (unless it is the center of mass that is the dominant source of gravity.) If the frame you are interested in is moving with velocity v in the local gravitational field, then the relative velocity will be v + c. Einstein imagined that c is

Why not have another beer?

Best regards,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Dear Edwin,

First of aal my reaction on the comments you have on my essay 5thank you for paying attention to it..)

"In the so called space-time there is no absolute simultaneity". The so called means "emerging", as it emerges out of the Planck Area where time and space are all simultaneous, only at the border line that I described as vague and full of exitations, all simultaneity is lost once the "reality" emerged. The so emerging "reference frames" are each one differnt from the other which is in accordance with Einsteins relativity theory.

"Backwards causation" Wheelers delayed choice thought experiment is no longer a thought experiment but has been executed and is a phenomenon that we have to count with. My model can explain it as you have read. I understand that is (like everything in quantum mechanics) a bit strange to get trusted with..

The confusion that arises when I introduce "Total Consciousness" is understandable. The basic reason for consciousness is the experience and implementation of our emerging reality. In order to realise that we need a "first cause" that I call "INITIATIVE". This first cause cannot originate out of only emergent phenomena. There is of course "causality from emergent phenomena" but then the mergence has already "occurred".

I also have read your essay and will give a reaction after this one

Good luck and regards

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First of aal my reaction on the comments you have on my essay 5thank you for paying attention to it..)

"In the so called space-time there is no absolute simultaneity". The so called means "emerging", as it emerges out of the Planck Area where time and space are all simultaneous, only at the border line that I described as vague and full of exitations, all simultaneity is lost once the "reality" emerged. The so emerging "reference frames" are each one differnt from the other which is in accordance with Einsteins relativity theory.

"Backwards causation" Wheelers delayed choice thought experiment is no longer a thought experiment but has been executed and is a phenomenon that we have to count with. My model can explain it as you have read. I understand that is (like everything in quantum mechanics) a bit strange to get trusted with..

The confusion that arises when I introduce "Total Consciousness" is understandable. The basic reason for consciousness is the experience and implementation of our emerging reality. In order to realise that we need a "first cause" that I call "INITIATIVE". This first cause cannot originate out of only emergent phenomena. There is of course "causality from emergent phenomena" but then the mergence has already "occurred".

I also have read your essay and will give a reaction after this one

Good luck and regards

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Can I order two beers please ?

Just to celebrate your very good written essay Edwin.

The discussion you describe is indeed fundamental for what I am calling "our emerging reality" and the reference frames that are involved in this process.

you say : ""An inertial frame is one in which spatial relations, as determined by rigid scales at rest in the frame, are Euclidian and in which there exists a universal time…[such that Newton's laws of inertia hold.]" I understand that these frames are the reference frames of "agents". Events happening "inside" these frames are seeming simultaneous for other frames outside the observed one.

You are discussing simultaneity like I also am trying to find a solution for this in my model (that you already have read).

An interesting article you can find here:EINSTEIN, RELATIVITY and ABSOLUTE SIMULTANEITY from William Lane Craig.

"But Earth exists in and travels through one time dimension, not one per location!" Here you are touching the foundational question of time and space, in a block universe there is o travelling there "movement" is from one moment to another even no "flow'' needed, becaus e these moments need not to be consecutive. (The perception of consecutive only exists in our memory)

"The fundamental nature of time is universal simultaneity" This perception is in concordance with my perception of "Total Simultaneity" that is the origin of the emergence of TIME. But the time that originates from this Planck Area is coupled to the mergence of space and a specific reality.

I am gonne read your essay again (first of all to understand better the formula's you used) because it is to me a vast information source.

I thank you for making me THINK and I hope to meet again in your bar, maybe there are arriving more scientific spirits for further discussions. This discussion I liked very much and rated it like that...

best regards

Wilhelmus de Wilde

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Just to celebrate your very good written essay Edwin.

The discussion you describe is indeed fundamental for what I am calling "our emerging reality" and the reference frames that are involved in this process.

you say : ""An inertial frame is one in which spatial relations, as determined by rigid scales at rest in the frame, are Euclidian and in which there exists a universal time…[such that Newton's laws of inertia hold.]" I understand that these frames are the reference frames of "agents". Events happening "inside" these frames are seeming simultaneous for other frames outside the observed one.

You are discussing simultaneity like I also am trying to find a solution for this in my model (that you already have read).

An interesting article you can find here:EINSTEIN, RELATIVITY and ABSOLUTE SIMULTANEITY from William Lane Craig.

"But Earth exists in and travels through one time dimension, not one per location!" Here you are touching the foundational question of time and space, in a block universe there is o travelling there "movement" is from one moment to another even no "flow'' needed, becaus e these moments need not to be consecutive. (The perception of consecutive only exists in our memory)

"The fundamental nature of time is universal simultaneity" This perception is in concordance with my perception of "Total Simultaneity" that is the origin of the emergence of TIME. But the time that originates from this Planck Area is coupled to the mergence of space and a specific reality.

I am gonne read your essay again (first of all to understand better the formula's you used) because it is to me a vast information source.

I thank you for making me THINK and I hope to meet again in your bar, maybe there are arriving more scientific spirits for further discussions. This discussion I liked very much and rated it like that...

best regards

Wilhelmus de Wilde

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Dear Wilhelmus,

Two beers coming up!

Thank you for your kind comments. Thanks for explaining some your concepts from your essay. I am glad that you find my essay worth reading again, and hope it does serve you as a source. The history is fascinating, and I was only this year made aware of the significance of Hertz's version of Maxwell's equations. I wanted the essay to be useful and fun to read. It sounds like you had fun. That's good!

My best regards,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Two beers coming up!

Thank you for your kind comments. Thanks for explaining some your concepts from your essay. I am glad that you find my essay worth reading again, and hope it does serve you as a source. The history is fascinating, and I was only this year made aware of the significance of Hertz's version of Maxwell's equations. I wanted the essay to be useful and fun to read. It sounds like you had fun. That's good!

My best regards,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

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