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FQXi BLOGS
August 22, 2019

CATEGORY: Blog [back]
TOPIC: The Nature of Time? You tell us. [refresh]
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FQXi Administrator Anthony Aguirre wrote on Aug. 4, 2008 @ 17:52 GMT
I believe that Henri Bergson, one of my favorite philosophers, once said that "Time is what prevents everything from happening at once." I've also heard it remarked that this clearly is not working anymore.

This isn't just a (true) comment on my own schedule, but also to point out that as well as announcing the results of the second round of large FQXi grants, we're also simultaneously very excited to launch FQXi's first essay contest, on "The Nature of Time."

I'm very much looking forward to hearing what some really careful thinkers really think about time (when encouraged by the possibility of some cash and fame) as well as to the opportunity to take part in what I hope will be a really fun and interesting discussion of a foundational question that is at once both intimately familiar and deeply mysterious. Have at it!

Finally, as another piece of current news, we're happy to welcome Zeeya Merali (from whom you've already seen blog entries) as both a new sometimes blogger and editor-in-chief of the FQXi community site.

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Dale Trynor wrote on Aug. 16, 2008 @ 09:16 GMT
This looks like just the sort of thing I have been waiting for and I hope I can qualify. You see I have been posting about an alternate theory for some time now on sci.physics and a few other related forums with very few responses nether for or against the theory.Its as if the readers do not know what to say and or its as if their questions were answered and they cant find any arguments against the theory.

The theory looks at what happens if the type of time dilation we get with gravity could contract matter in such a way that it also expands the surrounding space and ended up with a new way to explain how the big bang and the beginning of time could happen.

Later on after realizing that this alternate theory also gives at least one easily testable prediction I decided that it does indeed deserve to be classed as a theory and not just as a hypothesis.Subject to falsification after all.

Its to be reminded that the space expanding effect of gravity must be due to its time dilating effects and while similar is not the same as the Lorentz contractions on a moving rod.The theory does suggests that we are indeed inside of a black hole within another universe with a faster relative time.

I have a few gedankens on my web site to start readers getting an idea on how the theory works but remember the site is incomplete so for a more detailed review see my postings in sci.physics and sci.physics.relativity in Google or Usenet but look at least a few months back. Also on the blog site http://eclipseedge.org/msgboard/default.asp you can find a few of my postings under The Big Bang and Vacuum / Nothing , look for postings by ultranerd they are mine.My website is alttheories.com.

It leads to some far out speculations too for the reader interested in this as it also suggest actual white holes and ward drive possibilities. And if you want to really speculate then remember the Drake equation an advanced version of it relating to this theory suggest an increased possibility for an advanced civilization having even better chances of having existed.Leads to some very interesting arguments for the increased possibility of at least one synthetic god like civilization.

I do want any questions or advice.

Dale

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John Merryman wrote on Aug. 17, 2008 @ 02:02 GMT
I think time makes more sense as a consequence of motion, rather the dimensional basis for it.

Consider; If two atoms collide, it creates an event in time. While the atoms proceed through this event and on to others, the event goes the other way. First it is in the future, then in the past. So which is the real direction? If time is a fundamental dimension, then physical reality proceeds...

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Dr. Elliot McGucken wrote on Aug. 17, 2008 @ 03:05 GMT
Time as an Emergent Phenomenon: Traveling Back to the Heroic Age of Physics

In Memory of John Archibald Wheeler

by Dr. Elliot McGucken

ABSTRACT

In his 1912 Manuscript on Relativity, Einstein never stated that time is the fourth dimension, but rather he wrote x4 = ict. The fourth dimension is not time, but ict. Despite this, prominent physicists have oft equated time...

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attachments: Time_as_an_Emergent_Phenomenon.pdf

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FQXi Administrator Anthony Aguirre wrote on Aug. 17, 2008 @ 19:59 GMT
Hi All,

Thanks for your enthusiasm -- I think you'll agree this is a fun topic.

Dale:

There's no need to 'qualify' -- if you enter a serious essay on the topic of the nature of time that satisfied the rules, it will be part of the competition.

Others:

There's no need to post essays here -- if you enter an essay using the submission form and it is approved it will be posted. However, we have decided to accrue the first 10-20 essays before posting them all at once, probably sometime in the next couple of weeks as they are already rolling in.

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F. Le Rouge wrote on Dec. 5, 2008 @ 11:15 GMT
- To John Merryman: 'If two atoms collide, it creates an event in Time'. Why not tell that you are computing this collision in your Mind or a Reference on a chronological scale? And if there are two collisions you can put them on the same binary scale or choose another order.

The collision is real but the Time Scale is just a convention like you say 'dog' to speak about a 'dog' between English or US people, but only the dog itself is real.

I am surprised that in the fq(x)i competition some competitors are speaking about 'the intuition of Time as a flow' as there was no other idea of Time.

To A. Aguirre: problem of Bergson is that he was fighting against Descartes Empiricism, what was in my opinion a good thing, but he stayed at in intermediate position which is untenable. For instance his idea against Time reference of mechanic Science is 'duration', but duration is nothing else than a piece of the Time reference as Aristotle said. In other words: a vector is not stronger than a dot (or blocks than vectors). There is just a factor inside.

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Steve J wrote on Dec. 5, 2008 @ 18:09 GMT
What is Time?

To understand time, it is necessary to understand its components.

Time is energy, with the same energy density as solid mass. Time is a function of energy, and so identical to energy.

Energy in three-dimensional space is understood as mass, energy in the fourth Minkowski axis, as time, this means:

Each spatial dimension is held within the next, in this...

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John Merryman wrote on Dec. 7, 2008 @ 11:48 GMT
Francois,

Time can be thought of as either linear, or cyclical, because it is a consequence of motion and motion can be linear, or cyclical.

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amrit wrote on Dec. 8, 2008 @ 12:36 GMT
time is an observer effect

attachments: 1_The_Concept_of_Atemporality_into_The_Theory_of_Relativity__amrit_2008.pdf

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kev wrote on Dec. 12, 2008 @ 22:33 GMT
Time is a funny thing. On November 31st 2008 I made a small but significant discovery about the nature of proper time while studying the properties of motion in the spacetime below the event horizon of a black hole. How could I tell the world about my discovery? On December 1st 2008 I received a message from fellow physicsforums member Chris Clyde, that he had entered an essay competition about ‘the nature of time’ at FQXI. This was the first time I had heard of FQXI. What I wonderful coincidence! What great timing! Unfortunately I then discovered that the closing date for the competition was the same day and I did not have enough time to put a coherent essay together for the competition. What bad timing! It is ironic that someone like me that is always in the wrong place at the wrong time, should make a discovery about the nature of time in black holes that has eluded the experts for such a long time. Anyway, having lost my chance for fame and cash in the competition, I would still like the opinions and feedback of the members of FQXI and the interested public on my new interpretation of proper time and particle motion in the strongly curved spacetime of a black hole. The website I have produced includes equations, diagrams, interactive applets and a new metric that elaborate on the new concepts involved and is the result of many hours of my time. It will probably only take a few minutes of your time to review the material.

That is all I ask.

Some introductory articles are posted here in my physicsforums blog and the website can be found here.

Any feedback here or in my blog would be most appreciated.

All the best for the holiday period and have a good time!

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amrit wrote on Dec. 16, 2008 @ 08:14 GMT
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once"

an alternative is:

Time is what prevents us to experience everything into present.

yours amrit

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amrit wrote on Dec. 16, 2008 @ 08:16 GMT
regarding

"Time is what prevents us to experience everything into present", see file attached.

yours amrit

attachments: 1_Relation_Between_Time_Mind_and_Consciousness.pdf

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Frank Martin DiMeglio wrote on May. 11, 2009 @ 16:12 GMT
Time is ultimately dependent upon the integrated extensiveness of space (and experience).

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amrit wrote on May. 12, 2009 @ 09:33 GMT
Hi Frank

We know that 80% of red shift has origin in gravitational red shift. So expanding of the universe is under big ?

We have three different times:

1. Physical time – run of clocks

2. Math time – symbol t in formulas

3. Psychological time – past-present-future

See more on file attached

Yours amrit

attachments: TIME_IS_DERIVED_FROM_MOTION__Sorli_2009.pdf

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Steve Dufourny wrote on May. 12, 2009 @ 10:12 GMT
H Amrit ,

Personnally ,If I had voted for an essay about Time,it was for your essay .Your resume permits to distinguish some foundamentals about time .

The perception and the limits in this case improve the extrapolations .

It permits too to make a balance between reals and imaginaries ,it's so important .

Thanks for this resume

1. Physical time – run of clocks

2. Math time – symbol t in formulas

3. Psychological time – past-present-future

the complexity returns to simplicity ,

sincerely

Steve

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amrit wrote on May. 13, 2009 @ 15:47 GMT
Hi Steve

You take a pendulum, put it in front of you and observe it for awhile. First few minutes you will experience pendulum moving in space and time, by observing loner, you will see that pendulum moves in space only. Close your eyes and you will see image of pendulum moving in your inner space. Physical pendulum and image of pendulum created by your brain both move in same physical space. Also psychological time as the mind structure of the brain exists in the same physical space. By longer observing of pendulum motion psychological time will vanish. You will enter timeless experience of pendulum motion. You become aware of psychological time that is part of the mind. You will enter in a state of a pure observer that is consciousness itself

yours amrit

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Steve Dufourny wrote on May. 14, 2009 @ 08:01 GMT
Dear Amrit ,

Yes indeed ,it's relevant .We have all the same history in fact .

We have all the memory of our evolution in our mind ,the Universe memory in our polarized particles .

In this case ,the psychological time is so spiritual ,we are in the evolution dynamic and its complexification .

All that permits to evolve in harmony in correlation with foundamental laws around us ,locally and globally .

When we admit our past ,we improve our present to improve our future if I can say .

The first cells ,these unicells ,protoz ,are in our memory too and before them too H ...H2O CH4 NH3....,13.7 billions years ???

Our elementary particles are fascinatings ,they live in time space .

As you say .the consciencousness like a memory of the evolution .

sincerely

Steve

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Jason Wolfe/wulphstein@gmail.com wrote on May. 14, 2009 @ 08:40 GMT
Amrit,

What you're describing sounds like a meditation technique. Meditation is certainly a good way to understand physics more deeply.

Steve,

You are right about one thing in particular, we all do want to see the complexity of time/energy become simple again.

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Anonymous wrote on May. 14, 2009 @ 09:39 GMT
Jason yes, important task of theoretical physics today is to free observer from his imprisonment into psychological time. This is what meditation is. To step out of your mind.

attachments: 1_TIME_IS_DERIVED_FROM_MOTION_Sorli_2009.pdf

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John Merryman wrote on May. 15, 2009 @ 10:02 GMT
Jason, Amrit,

It's not illogical. What you are describing as meditation is to look beyond the linear reductionism of logical, cause and effect thinking. Time is how we conceptualize this process. Temperature describes the larger field of activity, the network, out of which we draw the threads of our own historical series and then weave them together into a larger rope of group history.

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amrit wrote on May. 15, 2009 @ 10:52 GMT
Hi Jason,

in meditation, means in timeless experience is information line

"universe - perception - experience" unbroken.

All is cristal clear. See on file attached.

Yours amrit

attachments: AWAKENING_OF_THE_OBSERVER_IN_PHYSICS__Sorli_2009.pdf

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Jason Wolfe/wulphstein@gmail.com wrote on May. 15, 2009 @ 23:08 GMT
John, Amrit,

They have a new contest. I've started writing a paper. I've figured out some really interesting things. I agree with Amrit that a universal clock measuring time should be abandoned. I also think that n-dimensional space, as if everything existed in some box, should be abandoned as well. It may very well be the case that the connections between everything are superstrings. I'm trying to figure out if mass is determined by the number of superstrings connected between the particle and everything else in space. But if I'm right, then the universe does behave like a highly interconnected network. If that is true, than the existence of an infinite nerual network may be provable. An infinte neural network, one that can manifest consciousness, can function as both a diety and also as a way to explain the existence of a soul, independent of the physical body.

There is just so much to figure out...

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John Merryman wrote on May. 17, 2009 @ 01:53 GMT
Jason,

It's an interesting concept, but I'm going to think it through awhile before taking the time to develop a paper. It would be harping on a pet idea to argue time travel isn't possible, based on an argument it is a consequence of motion, not a dimensional basis for it. Given the way the last contest was judged, it wouldn't get too many votes either. Maybe an argument for what is possible and not possible to propose as a scientifically acceptable idea. It's completely legitimate to say there are multitudes of other dimensions and universes which exist and our reality might have some interaction with, but don't even think of arguing there might be other consciousness in those other dimensions and interaction occurs within the depths of our own consciousness.

The irony is that time is considered a dimension based on our classic internal mental abstraction of serial process, yet not only does it trip up on the network of potentiality and proposes the multi-world view to deal with projecting a serial past onto a indeterminate future, rather than simply turn it around and see this wave of potential collapsing into the determinate past but other disciplines, such as neurology, biology, computer sciences are working on their own perspectives of this network reality as the basis for our serial perspective. The core discipline of physics has really gone off on a tangent.

Here's an idea; How about using multi-worlds, time travel, etc. to make an argument for how many angels, let's call them minor sub aware entities, can dance on the head of a pin. Call it a metal-ceramic microscope slide/culture dish. No, wait. That sounds normal. Hmm. The possibilities are endless.

Limitations define us and definitions limit us. Break our limits and we fall into the abyss. Oh yea, we die. So what is possible and what is impossible? Passing into the underworld before we die? Didn't the Greeks write a lot of epic poetry about that 2500 years ago?

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John Merryman wrote on May. 17, 2009 @ 03:16 GMT
Jason, Amrit,

Of course we can always predict that a member of FQXi will win the contest, employing some combination of multiple universes, wormholes, time travel, faster than light transportation.. Did I forget something?

I have an idea for a mathematical impossibility; The inability to attain a capitalist utopia through an ever expanding money supply, created by the miracle of compound interest, due to the destruction of demand for that supply of capital, given of the detrimental consequences of said compound interest. Gosh! Supply and demand applies to capital? I wonder if the bankers know that? Politics does tend to side with those having money, over those wishing to borrow it. Don't tell the experts though. Might hurt their feelings. That's one reality that won't go away, no matter how long they manage to ignore it.

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Steve Dufourny wrote on May. 17, 2009 @ 09:48 GMT
Hi all ,

This essay contest is a very good idea .

a sure thing is that ,some human inventions are dedicated to disappear in Time Space evolution(borders,weapons,money,differences...) ,on the other side some universal foundations shall rest and shall evolve towards harmony .It's the that the differernce between harmony and chaos is interesting to study deeper in correlation with our evolution and that since the begining of the big polarization if I can say.

Many things are possible in the physical universe and its laws and constants .

So many things to discover ,to improve ,to harmonize ,to utilize ...our potential is incredible in this creativity more the complementarity.

the essay contest is very intersting and will permit an analyze in a whole point of vue.

sincerely

Steve

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John Merryman wrote on May. 17, 2009 @ 23:44 GMT
Steve,

Recent neurological studies say that when brains harmonize, they seizure. A seizure is described as a feedback loop, like reverb on a loudspeaker and microphone. Our brains exist on the edge of chaos and order. In fact they are a process of turning chaos into order and without chaos to feed on, they die. They fall into the past.

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amrit wrote on May. 18, 2009 @ 06:35 GMT
Hi all

Consciousness is far beyond the mind.

Knowing more about consciousness I watch my mind every day for two hors - zazen.

Seeing at the wall ant watch it. After half an hour mind start projecting on the wall. And then you become aware of consciousness itself. Observer becomes self-aware. You clearly distinguish between mind and consciousness. Past and future belongs to the mind, observer belongs to the consciousness.

yours amrit

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Jason Wolfe/wulphstein@gmail.com wrote on May. 18, 2009 @ 08:30 GMT
John,

Yes, I know we are all tempted by the $10K to tell them anything they want to hear: time travel, multiple universes, Slider gates,... I say go for it. As the crackpot of the bunch, as proclamed by the Physics Forum, I am working on the warp drive. It may take a few weeks before my consciousness is ready to grasp the concepts, but, I am asking for help from the Diety. From what I understand, your spaceship is QM entangled with distant stars. And if it's not, it can become entangled. The neural net view of the physics, where particles are merely hubs for billions of superstrings extending far and wide across the universe, the trick is to identify which strings lead to your destination, and then, somehow, change the string properties so that c beomces 1000c (1000x speed of light). I'll let you know when God crams the information into my tiny brain.

Steve,

Don't start singing Kumbiaya yet. The angels work with money. The Arch Angels still carry swords and occasionally destroy evil. Harmony can and does occur within the more advanced races. And a word of advice, don't discuss politics with the arch angels.

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Steve Dufourny wrote on May. 18, 2009 @ 08:30 GMT
Hi Amrit and John,

John,

Interesting studies in neurobiology .

I don't think that the chaos has the same capacity than the harmony .

The chaos is a very very short instant ,a phase ,but not foundamental ,that hasn't sense in this optic of balance between them .

The harmony is foundamental and the chaos is an human invention .In this point of vue time is important and its short phase where some parameters are check to imply chaos .On the other side the harmony is foundamental and all returns quickly to this universal harmony and its complexification .

Let's take our global human system and its parameters ,this system is young and will evolve towards harmony ,it's like that everywhere in all things .

Our Universe is in building and that in harmony .

An other thing ,the harmony is easier to put into practice than the chaos because it's our universal foundamental .

All chaotic systems shall return to this ultim balance and futrthermore can be accelerated ...it's there that the complementarity is essential in an universal point of vue .

Amrit ,

The consciencousness is a harmonic vision of our universe and its evolution.

it's intersting your analyze about past and futur ,consciousness and mind ,eternity and present ,the mind like a memory of the evolution ,the consciencousness to improve our futur and that in the love of the present eternity ....thanks for your studies about time .

sincerely

Steve

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Steve Dufourny wrote on May. 18, 2009 @ 08:49 GMT
Hi Jason,

same hour of posting .hihihi

You say

Don't start singing Kumbiaya yet. The angels work with money. The Arch Angels still carry swords and occasionally destroy evil. Harmony can and does occur within the more advanced races. And a word of advice, don't discuss politics with the arch angels.

hihihi very beautiful message ,thanks .the democracy of ideas on the borders of the politics and its human laws .

"It's difficult to turn off a big fire with one water drop ,nevertheless a whole of drops makes Ocean "

Regards

Steve

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Jason Wolfe/wulphstein@gmail.com wrote on May. 18, 2009 @ 15:55 GMT
Amrit,

"Consciousness is far beyond mind..." I can explain what you're looking for. Has anybody figured out how the brain "remembers"? Given that, I would start looking for a similar mechanism to explain how the soul exists. Imagine, very long closed loop bundles of superstrings. If your soul was like an MPEG song or a movie that played over and over, what would it be? Mine would be the album Nostradamus by Judas Priest.

John,

I don't know about neurobiolical seisures, but I think the economy and American politics is having a siezure. I think its because of years of bad news. Lets start a new News Network. We'll call it Happy News!!!

Steve,

If you want universal order and harmony, then here's my advice: give away your television and your radio. And any time someone mentions politics, put your fingers in you ear and go "la la lalalalalalala!!!" very loudly. It works for me!

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Frank Martin DiMeglio wrote on May. 25, 2009 @ 14:50 GMT
Time is ultimately dependent upon the integrated extensiveness of being and experience (including space). The integrated extensiveness of being and experience go hand in hand. This is demonstrated in the dream; as dreams occur during the one third of our lives that we spend sleeping. Importantly, there are three dimensions to space, compared with time. There are three parts to time and to our bodies as well: past, present, future -- thought, emotion, and feeling. The self represents, forms, and experiences a comprehensive approximation of experience in general.

With the addition of a fourth dimension of space to Einstein's theory of gravity, we get electromagnetism/light (Maxwell's theory) as well. This must be (and is) plainly evident in our experience. Since unconscious and conscious experience are necessarily interactive, they are combined.

Importantly, the ability of thought to describe or reconfigure sense is ultimately dependent upon the extent to which thought is similar to sense.

Dreams make thought more like sensory experience in general (including gravity and electromagnetism). Moreover, dreams involve a fundamental integration and spreading of being and experience at the mid-range of feeling between thought and sense. The dream is the fundamental unification of gravity and electromagnetism.

This can also be briefly stated as follows:

Dreams improve upon the integrated extensiveness of experience AND thought. This is what is described by the addition of a fourth dimension of space that unites Einstein's theory of gravity and Maxwell's theory of electromagnetism/light. I have proven (in detail and with specifics) that the dream fundamentally unifies gravity and electromagnetism. With the fourth dimension of space being added, what is then described is thought that is more like sensory experience in general. The dream makes thought more like sensory experience in general (including gravity and electromagnetism). The ability of thought to describe or reconfigure sense is ultimately dependent upon the extent to which thought is similar to sense. Note that dreams involve a fundamental integration and spreading of being and experience at the mid-range of feeling between thought and sense. The totality of experience/the system has to be considered.

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Eckard Blumschein wrote on May. 25, 2009 @ 22:52 GMT
In order to have S^2 invariant under Lorentz transform, physicists are ready to write ict. They accordingly attributed the property of being imaginary to time, and they felt even forced to deny time. Why not considering S^2 imaginary?

Because I am an EE, I consider complex calculus a flexible tool that provides ambiguous results to be eventually adapted to reality by means of common sense.

Does not the multiplication of time with ic in this case just express integration? Ordinary abstract time as well as measured timespan is a steadily growing quantity. Usually the zero of time relates to an arbitrarily chosen event. Alternatively, elapsed time naturally relates to the border between past and expected events. Only positive elapsed time and positive distance can be measured. While it might be reasonable to introduce negative or imaginary distance, negative elapsed time, spacetime, or the like, ultimately the results have to be made concrete by removing all physicist's abstraction. Predicted future events are merely anticipated past ones. I agree with many remarks by Doug.

Incidentally, present time, today, currently and the like are valuable as deliberately imprecise expressions for anything but exact physics.

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songjoong sdfsd df wrote on Jan. 2, 2018 @ 08:50 GMT
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reseller propolis wrote on May. 24, 2018 @ 02:45 GMT
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