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**goal ken**: *on* 7/22/19 at 8:42am UTC, wrote a very detailed and meticulous lesson, it really has a lot of values, I...

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**Jonathan Dickau**: *on* 9/25/14 at 22:40pm UTC, wrote Gee whiz guys.. Continuing to let intervals slide by, and comments...

**Jonathan Dickau**: *on* 9/25/14 at 3:08am UTC, wrote that should be.. there is a process... not 'there is process a' sorry for...

**Jonathan Dickau**: *on* 9/25/14 at 3:03am UTC, wrote A little more on the octonions here.. Multiplication in the octonion...

**Jonathan Dickau**: *on* 9/25/14 at 2:32am UTC, wrote Since you have given time the opportunity to progress I'll say ... I have...

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FQXi FORUM

August 11, 2022

CATEGORY:
Show Me the Physics! Video Contest (2014)
[back]

TOPIC: The Flow of Time is a Stubborn Illusion (Experiments to Prove it) by ronald p gruber [refresh]

TOPIC: The Flow of Time is a Stubborn Illusion (Experiments to Prove it) by ronald p gruber [refresh]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJ9HqnuDZAc

The Block Universe Theory and related timeless cosmological theories contend that the flow of time (FOT) is an illusion. There is a low-level FOT in which the world is dynamic (e.g. has motion) and b) a high-level FOT in which events pass from future to present to past. . These theories would expect that neuroscience will observe both levels to be illusory percepts. Experimental demonstrations are given suggesting that “perceptual completion” connects all events (stimuli) but are illusory percepts. Apparent movement (phi phenomenon) has long been known to do some of that. In addition, the continuous wagon illusion, in recent years, strongly suggests that visual perception is discreet (13 Hz) and not continuous; and that motion is “painted onto each snapshot.” Very recently a new illusory percept, “happening” has been discovered that fills the gap for all discreet brief sensory stimuli of all sensory modalities. Brief demonstrations are provided. The past/present/future experience involves events or objects appearing to disappear into the past. By definition it means that objects experienced NOW must appear to be the same as when experienced THEN. Experimental demonstrations are provided indicating that “object persistence” under such spatiotemporal circumstances is, in fact, an illusion. An example is the color phi experiment in which sequentially presented multiple spots of multiple colors evoke the illusion of object persistence. They appear to be a single spot changing colors as it moves. The expectation by the Block Universe and other physical theories that the flow of time (upper and lower levels) is a perceptual illusion is very much supported. The demonstrated experiments vividly support Einstein’s assertion that it is a stubborn one.

richard a block, montana state u.

Ronald Gruber has pursued the interdisciplinary study of time, including 26 presentations/papers in physics and 32 in neuroscience. Early research involved Relativity (Special and Schwarzschild Metric) with Richard A. Price. The last 8 years involved the flow of time. He is currently Clinical Assoc. Professor at Stanford University. Richard A. Block is Professor of Psychology (and former chairman) at Montana State University. He is an associate member of the Division of Perception and Psychophysics at Stockholm University. He has studied time, memory, and cognition extensively culminating in numerous presentations, 87 peer-reviewed publications and one book.

Hi Joe

Thanks for your post. I read your essay. It is obvious you have given this topic serious thought.

Your argument about "uniqueness" is compelling. If one looks only at one of the timeless theories, that of Barbour and his metaphorical polaroids each which represents a "NOW" point it becomes apparent that each "polaroid" is likely to be unique in that sense and represents different information than any other "NOW."

Our interest in this topic was to find any experimental evidence we could to substantiate or falsify some people's claim that the human brain is expected to introduce an illusion-like connection between NOWs if, in fact, the timeless theories of cosmology preclude any such connections from occurring.

Kudos on your thought provoking, even if controversial, paper.

Ron

Thanks for your post. I read your essay. It is obvious you have given this topic serious thought.

Your argument about "uniqueness" is compelling. If one looks only at one of the timeless theories, that of Barbour and his metaphorical polaroids each which represents a "NOW" point it becomes apparent that each "polaroid" is likely to be unique in that sense and represents different information than any other "NOW."

Our interest in this topic was to find any experimental evidence we could to substantiate or falsify some people's claim that the human brain is expected to introduce an illusion-like connection between NOWs if, in fact, the timeless theories of cosmology preclude any such connections from occurring.

Kudos on your thought provoking, even if controversial, paper.

Ron

Hello Ron and Richard,

Well; you convinced me that this is worth checking more deeply into, despite the fact that I despise the block universe view, and feel that those who resort to that analogy are being overly simplistic. I even took Huw Price to task over it, when we spoke during FFP10 at UWA in Perth. So it must be a testament to the quality of your arguments and presentation, that I awarded as high a score as I did.

I have a fair amount to say about the perceptual basis for the flow of time, as well. I think the fact that the two hemispheres are anatomically almost identical but so different functionally is largely a matter of operating on information in opposite directions of time. In effect; the left brain knows how to take the watch apart, while the right brain knows how to put it together, but the two are identical actions - only time reversed. Some day; I will finish my paper on this subject.

All the Best,

Jonathan

Well; you convinced me that this is worth checking more deeply into, despite the fact that I despise the block universe view, and feel that those who resort to that analogy are being overly simplistic. I even took Huw Price to task over it, when we spoke during FFP10 at UWA in Perth. So it must be a testament to the quality of your arguments and presentation, that I awarded as high a score as I did.

I have a fair amount to say about the perceptual basis for the flow of time, as well. I think the fact that the two hemispheres are anatomically almost identical but so different functionally is largely a matter of operating on information in opposite directions of time. In effect; the left brain knows how to take the watch apart, while the right brain knows how to put it together, but the two are identical actions - only time reversed. Some day; I will finish my paper on this subject.

All the Best,

Jonathan

Since you have given time the opportunity to progress I'll say ...

I have become convinced that time's progression is a mathematical inevitability, due to the progression of cosmological time inherent in certain mathematical absolutes. In my contest video; I talk about the Mandelbrot Set, and there the story is one of how M catalogs symmetry breaking mechanisms. It also depicts a cosmos that is both static and automatically evolving. A piece of the Physics pertaining to the evolution of time in the theory is due to what I call octonion dynamism, but M as it is normally seen is a cross-section of that dynamic evolution. In my cosmology based on M; time is seen to flow both ways, as in the Spontaneous Inflation theory of Carroll and Chen, but with a fractal twist, and with the initial evolution of the universe taking place in octonionic space.

But on the dynamism of the hypercomplex algebras; Connes famously stated that non-commutative measure spaces evolve with time, and P.C. Kainen said of the octonions "Of course, multiplication in the octaval arithmetic fails to be either commutative or associative, but that could be a blessing in disguise. If multiplication depends on the order of the elements being multiplied together and even on how they are grouped, then at one fell swoop, geometry enters the calculation in an organic way. The Principle of Indeterminacy could then arise in a natural fashion from relativistic considerations, making quantum theory a consequence of an underlying 8-dimensional hidden-variable process, very much in the flavor of the theories of de Broglie and Bohm." So a process-like nature is emergent.

More later,

Jonathan

I have become convinced that time's progression is a mathematical inevitability, due to the progression of cosmological time inherent in certain mathematical absolutes. In my contest video; I talk about the Mandelbrot Set, and there the story is one of how M catalogs symmetry breaking mechanisms. It also depicts a cosmos that is both static and automatically evolving. A piece of the Physics pertaining to the evolution of time in the theory is due to what I call octonion dynamism, but M as it is normally seen is a cross-section of that dynamic evolution. In my cosmology based on M; time is seen to flow both ways, as in the Spontaneous Inflation theory of Carroll and Chen, but with a fractal twist, and with the initial evolution of the universe taking place in octonionic space.

But on the dynamism of the hypercomplex algebras; Connes famously stated that non-commutative measure spaces evolve with time, and P.C. Kainen said of the octonions "Of course, multiplication in the octaval arithmetic fails to be either commutative or associative, but that could be a blessing in disguise. If multiplication depends on the order of the elements being multiplied together and even on how they are grouped, then at one fell swoop, geometry enters the calculation in an organic way. The Principle of Indeterminacy could then arise in a natural fashion from relativistic considerations, making quantum theory a consequence of an underlying 8-dimensional hidden-variable process, very much in the flavor of the theories of de Broglie and Bohm." So a process-like nature is emergent.

More later,

Jonathan

A little more on the octonions here..

Multiplication in the octonion algebra is a little like assembling a watch, in that there is process a where seven sub-assemblies, consisting of three operations that must be done in a specific order or direction, in a particular sequence - then the scalar element is put in place like the cover when the watch is assembled. Of course; there are 256 variations of the octonion multiplication table, reducible to 16 through symmetries, of which only 4 are commonly used. But that is what makes octonion Math fun! Unfortunately; it is not yet well-known that the octonions display a sequentially evolutive dynamism.

Have Fun!

Jonathan

Multiplication in the octonion algebra is a little like assembling a watch, in that there is process a where seven sub-assemblies, consisting of three operations that must be done in a specific order or direction, in a particular sequence - then the scalar element is put in place like the cover when the watch is assembled. Of course; there are 256 variations of the octonion multiplication table, reducible to 16 through symmetries, of which only 4 are commonly used. But that is what makes octonion Math fun! Unfortunately; it is not yet well-known that the octonions display a sequentially evolutive dynamism.

Have Fun!

Jonathan

Gee whiz guys..

Continuing to let intervals slide by, and comments accumulate, does not do much to convince me that the flow of time is illusory (tongue in cheek).

I'm still curious how you will respond to my comments above.

'til next time,

Jonathan

Continuing to let intervals slide by, and comments accumulate, does not do much to convince me that the flow of time is illusory (tongue in cheek).

I'm still curious how you will respond to my comments above.

'til next time,

Jonathan

I am hoping you will have time to rate and comment on my video..

Can the Mandelbrot Set help us understand the Cosmos?

Regards,

Jonathan

Can the Mandelbrot Set help us understand the Cosmos?

Regards,

Jonathan

a very detailed and meticulous lesson, it really has a lot of values, I will learn a lot thanks slitherio

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