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RECENT POSTS IN THIS TOPIC

sridattadev kancharla: on 10/30/13 at 19:02pm UTC, wrote Dear Georgina, I hope you will enjoy the following blog and videos in...

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Sreenath N: on 8/5/13 at 6:30am UTC, wrote Georgina, You have defined and discussed the concept of information in...


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FQXi FORUM
May 25, 2019

CATEGORY: It From Bit or Bit From It? Essay Contest (2013) [back]
TOPIC: Something about Information by Georgina Parry [refresh]
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Author Georgina Woodward wrote on Jun. 26, 2013 @ 17:41 GMT
Essay Abstract

A quick look at some ideas pertaining to information such as, its definition, noise,coding, forms and 'superposition' at the macroscopic scale, as a prelude to answering- 'It from Bit 'or 'Bit' from It'? The idea that information plays a very important part in each different facet of reality not just in the theoretical quantum realm is discussed. Concluding that it can not do so without material embodiment in object reality, which allows information to be carried and observer selection in object reality which provides the data that will be fabricated into an output image reality.

Author Bio

Bsc. Hons Biological sciences. Post graduate certificate in Education. Former High school and 6th form college teacher of the separate Sciences, Human biology and General studies. Independent thinker and innovator.

Download Essay PDF File

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James Lee Hoover wrote on Jun. 26, 2013 @ 22:37 GMT
Georgina,

I find your essay interesting but feel that too many times we only speak quantum language and apply it equally to the micro and macro world, or perhaps ignore the macro. With my non-scientific, non-mathematical background, perhaps my views are too simplistic, perhaps too humanistic, but I feel modern man has built the Anthropic Principle in his own image.

Jim

What do you think?

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Author Georgina Woodward replied on Jun. 26, 2013 @ 23:17 GMT
Hi James,

there is something about probabilities, the larger the number of outcomes that will be measured the more accurate a prediction can be made. It doesn't matter if the subject is particles or dice or human beings. There is a place for probabilities in physics and even in biology but it can't explain everything.( Statistics was a compulsory part of my biology degree.) The quantum realm is not micro or macro but something else. A theoretical way of looking at the world "out of time" and its possibilities. The somewhat quirky ending to the essay was an attempt to illustrate what is happening in those, all very different, "worlds"; What is, What output is observed through participation with that, and the theoretical quantum realm of probabilities.

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Author Georgina Woodward wrote on Jun. 26, 2013 @ 22:40 GMT
Here is a really good talk by Dan Ariely: What makes us feel good about our work. Using his analogy, the essay I have submitted is my origami frog. Hope you like it. The "IKEA effect" might also be in operation here.

I have tried to follow Brendan's advice (on the competition discussion pages),making it not unnecessarily long, not too incomprehensible, hopefully enjoyable and not just about one pet idea shoehorned into the essay.

This competition inspired me to read "Information the new language of science" by Hans Christian von Baeyer, which I found very interesting and easy to follow.I would recommend it to anyone interested in a basic grounding on the subject. I have also been dipping into the "handbook of binding and memory". Which is mostly about (suprise, suprise) memory and fascinating in small doses. Not light reading but may be useful to anyone who wants to know more about scientific research on memory.

Any feedback on the essay will be much appreciated.

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Anonymous wrote on Jun. 27, 2013 @ 01:54 GMT
Dear Georgina

I enjoyed reading your essay. You have a a talent for turning a scientific discussion into a journey of discovery in a land of ideas. Not just any ideas, but ones you have carefully researched, mulled over and presented honestly and clearly to your listeners. It is a bit like storytelling. The wonderful illustrations make your intention the clearer. I would agree with almost everything you said, but would have worded some examples differently (Pauli's principle is usually applied to electrons not nuclei, although it is not actually wrong to do so.)

I enjoyed the reference to chocolate fillings towards the end, but then that inevitably brought to mind an absolutely hilarious passage in the novel I am now reading Thomas Pynchon's Gravity's Rainbow. The novel is not for everyone, but the passage about exotic English candy fillings. Apologies if this is too distracting.

With best wishes

Vladimir

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Author Georgina Woodward replied on Jun. 27, 2013 @ 03:42 GMT
Thanks Vladimir. I really appreciate your favorable response and constructive feedback. mmm the gin marshmallows sound interesting! I'm looking forward to reading your own essay soon.

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Vladimir F. Tamari replied on Jun. 27, 2013 @ 04:34 GMT
Thanks Georgina for putting my mind at ease - I was wondering how you would find the reference. When I was a kid Charms made delicious candies with cinnamon (now discontinued), and Charm is a type of quark - so its back to physics and your highly regarded essay. Good luck in the contest.

Vladimir

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Anonymous wrote on Jun. 27, 2013 @ 02:11 GMT
Georgina

Nice to see you again,Unfortunately, your essay is too large for automatic translation capabilities of my computer. Anyway,also wish you success.

http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/1802

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Hoang cao Hai replied on Jun. 27, 2013 @ 02:20 GMT
Maybe it's too rejoice should forgot login.

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Sreenath B N wrote on Jun. 27, 2013 @ 07:58 GMT
Georgina,

I have down loaded your essay and soon post my comments on it. Meanwhile, please, go through my essay and post your comments.

Being yourself a biologist, you may like what I have written on It and Bit in my 'biology' section.

Regards and good luck in the contest.

Sreenath BN.

http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/1827

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Peter Jackson wrote on Jun. 27, 2013 @ 09:47 GMT
Georgina,

I always look forward to your essays and was not disappointed. I was also exceptionally pleased to find so much harmony with my own core propositions.

In particular you may the very good and quite originally expressed point;

"Information is also the carried potential to direct change (function) in Object reality and carried potential meaning that may lead to manifest meaning in subjective Image reality." which seems to imply a coherent 'it from bit', or rather the recognition of the 'bit' itself as an 'it'.

Related to this you point out;

"When information is processed by a machine, meaning is fabricated by the process... ...meaning is 'uncovered' when the machine acts upon the direction of the input. I conceptualise this in terms of the wavefunction not just being "collapsed" on interaction (processing) but a new one (reality) being "created", and hope you can see the analogy.

But I think you correctly identify the real key to better understanding of nature in the simple line; "In nature there is more than a binary choice of atom or no atom." Which is also the massive choice range embedded in my 'Intelligent Bit' between 0 and 1.

Well done again. A nice easy to read and well argued essay. I feel my own may again be a little too densely packed and testing, but hope you can find the time to read it carefully and follow the references as the ontological construction is assembled, showing that the 'information' sent combines with the detector state to create the complex subjective 'measurements' neurally 'recorded', complete with quantum uncertainty.

I look forward to any comments or questions.

Very best of luck in the results.

Peter

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Author Georgina Woodward replied on Jun. 27, 2013 @ 21:24 GMT
Hi Peter,

thank you for reading my essay and for the positive comments. Much appreciated. Glad you found some parts that resonate with your own thoughts.

I will be reading your own essay soon and getting back to you with some feedback on it.

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basudeba mishra wrote on Jun. 27, 2013 @ 15:44 GMT
Dear Madam,

Welcome to the contest. Your essay is a pleasure to read and thought provoking. We had just glanced over it. We will go through it in detail and post our comments. You can visit our essay:

“INFORMATION HIDES IN THE GLARE OF REALITY by basudeba mishra

http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/1776”.

Regards,

basude
ba

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Satyavarapu Naga Parameswara Gupta wrote on Jun. 28, 2013 @ 00:03 GMT
Dear Madam,

Thank you for presenting your nice essay. I saw the abstract and will post my comments soon. I feel just information can not create material. . . .

I am requesting you to go through my essay also. And I take this opportunity to say, to come to reality and base your arguments on experimental results.

I failed mainly because I worked against the main stream. The...

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basudeba mishra replied on Jun. 28, 2013 @ 04:11 GMT
Dear Madam,

A big problem hampering progress science is the cult of incomprehensibility. A word has certain meaning, which can vary according to context, but not arbitrarily. Whenever a word is used in a different sense, it should be precisely defined and its scope clearly demarcated. Otherwise it would perpetuate incomprehensibility like color and flavor of quarks. Most scientists fail to...

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Author Georgina Woodward replied on Jun. 28, 2013 @ 23:35 GMT
Dear Basudeba Mishra,

thank you for reading my essay and for your extensive response. I agree with you that language is very important for clear communication and that "information" is one of the problem words that has different meanings, which can lead to misunderstandings. I usually try to avoid the word but it was unavoidable given the topic of the essay this year.I thought it was a good idea to try and pin down what I was attempting to talk about at the outset.

I think it would have been better if I had said - it is about communication of *the outcomes* of binary choices. The sentence you question was not a direct quote from the book and it would take me some time to locate the precise wording that the author used, so any inadequacy is my probably entirely my own and not Hans Christian von Baeyer's. I extended the definition given because I wanted to capture the concepts of function and meaning which are important aspects of information,i.e. what it can do.

You say noise can not be information and can not be communicated. Perhaps I am straying into another meaning of information but I will argue that noise can be information. For example consider transmission of a conversation at a railway station or air terminal, the noise in the background can convey useful information about location and time of the conversation, even though it is not a part of the meaningful message. The way in which a message is corrupted by noise might give important information about the conditions under which the message was sent, such as type of, or particular piece of, equipment or atmospheric conditions at that time and/or place.

I would also argue that the form of an object does encode the information necessary to produce every Image reality manifestation of it. (Though there can also be distortion of the information which will affect the manifestation observed.) I use the term "Manifestation" to refer to what is observed, the output of data processing by an observer, rather than material forms that can be output by material deciphering of encoding information, like transcription of mRNA.

I wrote "*Relative to an observer* an object-form's top, bottom, front, back ...." I was trying to convey the dichotomy between what an observer observes and what a form *might* be observed to be. I.e the difference between a multitude of potential manifestations and a singular manifestation.

Glad you think I reached the right conclusion at the end. That's a relief : )

Thanks for your time, Georgina

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basudeba mishra replied on Jun. 29, 2013 @ 03:05 GMT
Dear Madam,

The interconnectedness and interdependence of everything with everything else as cause and effect cannot be denied. But we may come to different conclusions while examining the same thing, like the transmission of a conversation on the platform and noise, which are interconnected. Let us take the example of boarding announcement of a flight. For the passengers, what the...

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Hoang cao Hai wrote on Jun. 28, 2013 @ 04:50 GMT
Send to all of you

THE ADDITIONAL ARTICLES AND A SMALL TEST FOR MUTUAL BENEFIT

To change the atmosphere "abstract" of the competition and to demonstrate for the real preeminent possibility of the Absolute theory as well as to clarify the issues I mentioned in the essay and to avoid duplicate questions after receiving the opinion of you , I will add a reply to you :

1 . THE...

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Akinbo Ojo wrote on Jun. 28, 2013 @ 12:48 GMT
Hello Georgina,

A few comments/ questions for you:

RE: "A 'bit' is not a particle but an associated attribute, eg. spin or polarization"

I have found that in this essay contest some misinterpret the word bit to mean tiny parts of a material thing instead of the correct meaning you used which is an attribute that can have either of two alternatives. In this regard, would you consider 'existence' as an example of an attribute?

RE: "Julian Barbour's award winning essay ... makes a very good case for 'Bit from It'. He argues that 'bits' are nothing without 'its'. So its are more fundamental. It can be seen that information has to be carried and does not exist on its own. There can't be spin or polarization without something to have

those attributes".

Largely true. But if 'existence/non-existence' are binary choices (bits), then one of those choices does not need an It to 'carry it'. Food for thought.

Best regards,

Akinbo

*You can give me your thoughts on my essay. Harsh but logical criticism preferred!

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Author Georgina Woodward replied on Jun. 28, 2013 @ 22:19 GMT
Hi Akinbo Ojo,

thank you for reading my essay and for your thought provoking question.In the essay I have offered the binary choice of there being an atom or no atom at a location in a structure as information, which is like existence or non existence. Is Something or is nothing seems to me a most basic attribute, like 1 and 0.The way I was thinking about it a material structure of some kind is required to carry the absence so that it is communicated. It is a really interesting point though that the existent Bit has a corresponding It but the non existent one does not(unless it is regarded as having a corresponding non existent It) but the absence can still be information. Thank you for raising that very interesting question.

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Antony Ryan replied on Jun. 29, 2013 @ 10:52 GMT
Great point with regard to non existent Bit having corresponding it (or not)!

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Author Georgina Woodward replied on Jun. 29, 2013 @ 20:48 GMT
As my essay plummets I should perhaps add that present/absent was just one particular kind of information that I thought worth considering as to me it was an interesting category with an important role in nature.

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Antony Ryan wrote on Jun. 29, 2013 @ 10:50 GMT
Hello Georgina,

I think that you are right that observation is important to the essay question. Also I have concluded likewise in my essay that It from Bit and Bit from It seem more likely.

Great essay.

Best wishes,

Antony

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Author Georgina Woodward replied on Jun. 29, 2013 @ 20:53 GMT
Hi Antony,

thanks for taking a look at my essay. I hope to reciprocate.

Regards Georgina

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Antony Ryan replied on Jun. 30, 2013 @ 16:11 GMT
Hi Georgina,

No worries - there are so many to read on here, but I'm enjoying the variety. Some great and new ideas.

Best wishes for contest,

Antony

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John Brodix Merryman wrote on Jun. 30, 2013 @ 02:45 GMT
Georgina,

Thank you for the kind comments over on my entry. I read your essay and it is also a pleasure. The nature of this contest is a bit unintentionally, but fundamentally disconcerting. Deconstructing information has a bit of the feel of the snake swallowing its tail. I understand why, in the context of Wheeler's argument, it is an important topic, but the tendency toward academic self-referentialism is strong. Like many movements these days, from religious fundamentalism to security state insecurities, there is that feel of falling into the rabbit hole of gravitational implosion. With physics these days, there seems to be a bit of schizophrenia, well exemplified in this question, of insisting on exactitude, but recognizing duality and ambiguity as fundamental. As you point out also, it is both it as bit and bit as it. As I use McLuhan's dichotomy of message and medium being two distinct sides of the same coin, there is a basic and comprehensible reality here, it just doesn't fit in our bottom line pigeonholes. If we don't like what nature is telling us, she is quite willing to let us be as complicated as we want, but we are only tying ourselves up in knots. Complexity certainly has its uses, but it can be a trap as well.

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Author Georgina Woodward replied on Jul. 1, 2013 @ 08:56 GMT
Hi John,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. An interesting point you make about physics "insisting on exactitude but recognizing duality and ambiguity". I was quite pleased when the topic was announced but then found it wasn't as easy as I had contemplated to put something coherent together. Didn't want to base the essay entirely on observation and just continue on the same old hobbyhorse. I've also been very unwell and so am pleased to have put together anything at all, and I've learned some stuff doing it. So all good whatever the outcome.I can't be so involved with the competition discussions this time,(or the blogs), not just because of the subject but because I'm still not 'firing on all cylinders'.

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John Brodix Merryman replied on Jul. 1, 2013 @ 18:36 GMT
Georgina,

Sorry to hear about the health problems, but sympathize entirely. This whole life business is like walking on thin ice. I'm only here because parts of my brian like it as entertainment and I can't get too frustrated that few people take me seriously because there isn't a lot I can afford to take seriously, beyond family and work.

I have to say though, I've long felt I am living on borrowed time, for a number of reasons. (Just got smacked on the ground, mostly head first, by a two year old colt yesterday and since I'm epileptic and I was out riding with my daughter and a cardiologist neighbor, it was a lot of stress situation. Fortunately its rainy and the ground is soft.)

Used to do drugs to escape reality. Now I do them to stay in reality.

Best wishes!

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Edwin Eugene Klingman wrote on Jul. 2, 2013 @ 06:21 GMT
Dear Georgina,

It was good to read your essay and realize you are a realist: "Atoms are not imaginary things. They can be seen..." "The information directs the building of the form, but the information is nothing without the thing that carries it," ... "There can be no code without something to embody the code."

I also agree with "the world of quantum mechanics is not the external reality that exists but it is the theoretical 'world' built up from the measurement and counting of many binary choices..." [and] "they must always be probabilities for something." And finally, Barbour's "'bits' are nothing without 'its'. So its are more fundamental."

You conclude that "matter is directed by information and would not exist in that form without it."

I would probably say that "matter is transformed by energy, and the transformation (change in form) becomes a record of the energy in-forming the matter, hence in-form-ation."

Thanks for continuing to participate in these fqxi contests. And for reading and commenting on my essay. Good luck in the contest. Saw your note to John and hope you're soon firing on all cylinders.

Have fun,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

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Author Georgina Woodward replied on Jul. 2, 2013 @ 22:50 GMT
Dear Edwin,

thank you for reading my essay and good wishes.

Yes I am a realist, Object reality that I talk about is all the "really real" stuff. Though I'm also *something like* a presentist, only it isn't the experienced present that is "really real" because of 1. the time delay for transmission of data through the external Object reality from the source and 2.the internal processing time. The object reality precedes the experience of it. One might regard that as being in the future but output Image reality and Object reality both co-exist at the same and only time.

That is possible because they are different facets of reality, the Image reality being emergent from received and processed information. Usually we are considering things in our vicinity and so the delay is extremely small but when we are thinking about astronomical distances the delay is huge. So the seen universe and existing Object universe are very different. The Object reality is what exists out there in space , the Image reality is fabricated as space-time.That is the key to overcoming the temporal paradoxes. That's my hobbyhorse which I have tried not to make the basis of this essay, taking Brendan's advice.

Re.your comment, Quote: "I would probably say that "matter is transformed by energy, and the transformation (change in form) becomes a record of the energy in-forming the matter, hence in-form-ation." I agree with the bit about record of the energy, it makes me think of ripples and furrows in the wet sand of a beach. I also agree that energy is required for transformation of matter BUT information 'tells' the matter how to transform. I gave an example of a cake tins structure and a river's form, the existing structure dictates the structure of the cake mix or future structure of the river banks via control of the river's flow. For a very different example consider metabolic processes, energy (as ATP) is required but just ATP will not allow the process to occur, there has to also be the required chemicals, with particular structures (a kind of information) that will react in certain ways.

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Author Georgina Woodward replied on Jul. 3, 2013 @ 21:10 GMT
Thinking about it the river really isn't a good example, not even an example of what I was trying to convey. I think I had just got "into the flow" talking about liquid things. Never mind, I'll put it down to not feeling 100% when I wrote it, though I should have picked it up sooner.

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basudeba mishra replied on Jul. 9, 2013 @ 00:18 GMT
Dear Madam,

Regarding your comment: "it isn't the experienced present that is "really real", you must remember that we live in present and experience something about the past. Present is the flitting interface between past and future. Since it is ever shifting, it has no position like space. We have discussed it in our essay as follows:

Experience is the perception of result of measurement (includes observation). The result of measurement is always related to a time t, and is frozen for use at later times t1, t2, etc, when the object has evolved further. All other unknown states are combined together and are called superposition of states. Hence there is an uncertainty inherent in it, which Shannon calls entropy. In perception, the concept remains in a superposition of states and collapses in response to some stimuli. In information technology, the updating is done by an agent. In perception, it is done by the neural network and memory. All information has a source rate (complexity) that can be measured in bits per second (speed) and requires a transmission channel (mode) with a capacity equal to or greater than the source rate (intelligence or memory level). In perception, these are the intelligence level and mind.

Regards,

basudeba

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john stephan selye wrote on Jul. 13, 2013 @ 19:53 GMT
Dear Georgina -

I found your biological perspective rare and refreshing. I believe that the It-Bit question needs to be considered in all the fields that affect our interpretation of the Cosmos, including the biological and cognitive fields.

Your section on 'numbers and noise' reminds us that information is determined by the recipient - a concept I extend into a paradigm that defines...

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Wilhelmus de Wilde de Wilde wrote on Jul. 15, 2013 @ 15:11 GMT
Hi Georgina,

It is always good to meet such an active participant on FQXi with explicit ideas. Like your earlier essays I liked this one too, although the former was more mindbending (with its 3-D illustration that you made later).

After the O of INFO you stopped , perhaps the RMATION became too long, just an idea to continue:

R for Reason

M for Moral

A for Artificial Intellgence

T for TIME

I for Intelligence

O for Ohmega

N for Noether...

Something came to my mind when I read your essay, the information as it is processed by a machine is only processed when a button is pushed by a human being, while with the human being the buttons are his five senses...

I hope that will also take some of your time to read my entrance and perhaps rate and comment it, As your essay inspired me I also rated it satisfactory.

good luch and best regards

Wilhelmus

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Wilhelmus de Wilde de Wilde replied on Jul. 15, 2013 @ 17:56 GMT
sorry I forgot to give my title : "THE QUEST FOR THE PRIMAL SEQUENCE" topic 1810

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Wilhelmus de Wilde de Wilde replied on Jul. 16, 2013 @ 16:41 GMT
and even to make it more easier :

click on this link

Wilhelmus

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Author Georgina Woodward replied on Jul. 19, 2013 @ 05:35 GMT
Hi Wilhelmus,

good to hear from you. I prefer the essay I wrote last year too but I'm happy that you think this one is OK. It was a bit of a challenge for me as I was unwell at the time of writing it. Yes it would have been too long if I had continued spelling information. I thought info. was enough and it seemed to fit quite well with the things I wanted to talk about. Brendan had said not to make the essays unnecessarily long too.

I'm looking forward to reading your essay, and giving it my vote.

Thank you, Georgina

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Vladimir F. Tamari wrote on Jul. 18, 2013 @ 01:43 GMT
Dear Georgina . Hello, hoping this finds you well and apologies if this does not apply to you. I have read and rated your essay and about 50 others. If you have not rated my essay The Cloud of Unknowing please consider doing so. With best wishes.

Vladimir

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Jonathan J. Dickau wrote on Jul. 20, 2013 @ 01:28 GMT
Nice work Georgina.

An interesting and fun to read essay. I especially liked the part about object information not being stored as a single bundle of information, but rather as a web of connections and relationships. That is something I learned but neglected to mention in my essay, which you are invited to read and comment on. Your opinion is always most welcome, and this year's topic and essays recommend a cross-disciplinary analysis of such things, which both you and I provide. I wish you good luck in the contest.

All the Best,

Jonathan

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Author Georgina Woodward replied on Jul. 25, 2013 @ 00:37 GMT
Hi Jonathan,

thank you for reading my essay and your kind comments. I really appreciate them. I've been working my way down the comments left.

I will read yours too, so don't worry that I haven't got to it yet. Fortunately we have been given a bit more time.

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Vladimir Rogozhin wrote on Jul. 23, 2013 @ 18:20 GMT
Hello Georgina,

I have read with allowances for your analytical essay written lively figurative language. World contests FQXi - it contests new fundamental ideas, new deep meanings and new concepts. In your essay deep analysis in the basic strategy of Descartes's method of doubt, given new ideas, images and conclusions.

Perfect conclusion: «The material world is not static but in...

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Author Georgina Woodward replied on Jul. 25, 2013 @ 00:03 GMT
Hello Vladimir,

thank you so much for your positive feedback on my essay. Thanks too for your questions which I do not know if I can answer satisfactorily.

I'm not quite sure what is meant by cognitive computer visualization technology. Or colour -musical cognitive images. Thanks for the link.It is quite a long article which I have only taken a quick look at. Certainly visual presentation of information can be helpful for cognition but I am not convinced that if everyone reports seeing the same thing it is the truth. Think of the illusionists performance as an argument against that.

I do think visualizations are a very good way of presenting complex information in a way that is easily understood; Especially for very large data sets.The same would apply to mathematical abstractions, if it is possible to illustrate them. It can also bring out relationships and correlations that might not be obvious in raw data or a particular mathematical presentation. I think the colour and forms interest the mind which has evolved to make sense of complex visual information. I like very much the site Information is beautiful

Re your second question, thanks again for the link. What a beautiful expressive voice. The words of a lyricist often speak to the mind of the listener about human emotions which he/she is then able to feel. Though, as I write about in the essay, it is the -observer who creates the meaning- in his/her image reality. For some people, no doubt, beautiful lyrics do not convey emotional feeling even when in their own mother tongue. In the same way some people find beauty in mathematics, and the mathematics of physics, but others do not. The logical mind and the emotional mind are different facets of being human and meaning can be found by both.

Yes, I will endevour to read your essay too. Regards, Georgina.

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Author Georgina Woodward replied on Jul. 25, 2013 @ 00:20 GMT
Vladimir,

Yes I could cry, it is a very sad but beautiful poem.

From http://lyricstranslate.com

With the same anguish my days flash past, Monotonous/dreary as they were, As if roses are dropping their petals, And nightingales are dying.

And she is also sorrowful, The Love that has guided me And envenomed blood Runs under her satin-like skin.

And if I am in this world, It is for the only dream I have, That we both, like blind children, Will go to the mountain ridge

There, where there are only reveries, In the world of the whitest clouds, To seek for faded roses, And listen to the dead nightingales.

Author's comment:

The lyrics is the poem by a Russian poet and translator Nikolay Gumilev (1886 - 1921)http://lyricstranslate.com One line is slightly changed: Gumilev has it as "There, where only goats are roaming" instead of "There, where there are only reveries"

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Vladimir Rogozhin replied on Jul. 26, 2013 @ 11:40 GMT
Hello Georgina,

Thank you for your the answers to my comment very valuable for me! Also a big thank you for visiting my forum and give your comment!

In the russian version of the paper by Alexander Zenkin slightly different phrase: «The truth should be drawn and should be presented to" an unlimited circle "of spectators». I think that this phrase has a broader meaning. When I make a reference to this idea A.Zenkin, I primarily mean the idea of Kant's concept-figure synthesis.

Many thanks for the link to the full text of the romance Nikolai Gumilev.. I always listen to it when I need to recharge the spirit… The last sentence is very interesting!

Yes, physics and poetry must work together to come to a unified picture of the world, rich in all the meanings of being. Matter physicists is to acquire soul. Contest FQXi helps with that!

Best regards,

Vladimir

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sridattadev kancharla wrote on Jul. 24, 2013 @ 14:13 GMT
Dear Georgina and All,

I am attaching the iDNASeries.bmp that I have envisioned and how it shows the DNA structure in its sequence.

I give you all a cosmological iSeries which spans the entire numerical spectrum from -infinity through 0 to +infinity and the simple principle underlying it is sum of any two consecutive numbers is the next number in the series. 0 is the base seed and...

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attachments: 4_iDNASeries.bmp

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Joe Fisher wrote on Jul. 24, 2013 @ 16:48 GMT
Ms. Parry,

I thought your essay was splendid. It held my interest from the first word to the last. Will you please allow this decrepit old realist to make a comment about it without becoming unduly upset?

You wrote: “It is wrong to think that the task of the physicist is to find out how nature is.”

It is not wrong, it is totally impossible for any physicist to find out anything about nature for as I have pointed out in my essay BITTERS, nature is unique, once.

Each real snowflake is unique, once. Each real molecule of each real snowflake is unique, once. The only question Wheeler ought to have asked was;

Is the real Universe simple? Yes

Is the abstract universe simple? No.

Is real unique, once simple? Yes

Is abstract quantum theory simple? No.

I do wish you the best of luck in the contest.

Joe

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Author Georgina Woodward replied on Jul. 24, 2013 @ 22:19 GMT
Dear Joe,

thank you so much for reading my essay and for your kind words and good wishes.

You have quoted me quoting Niels Bohr. I thought he had an interesting perspective on what physics is all about.

I look forward to reading your essay soon. Fortunately we have been given a little more time. Till then, all the best, Georgina

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Don Limuti wrote on Jul. 24, 2013 @ 20:30 GMT
Hi Georgina,

Good to see you in another contest. I like your latest essay, very readable and informative.

1. Perhaps it should have been titled "Everything About Information"

2. I think it is the only essay that mentions the concept of noise at all. Shannon's mission for the phone company was to get information out of noise. If we look at the entries in this contest many of the entries are informational some are ... well .....noisy. Check my essay out and tell me if it is ... well.... noisy :)

Giving you the best mark, And wishing you the best recovery.

Don Limuti

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Author Georgina Woodward replied on Jul. 24, 2013 @ 22:45 GMT
Hi Don,

thank you very much. It is really good to hear that you liked the essay.

Re 1. yes its a broad and interesting topic so lots of ideas to choose from but there's lots more that I could have written about. Maybe "information in a nutshell" would have worked. I did not just want to talk about perception and write something very similar to my usual old hobby horse so I had fun exploring the territory a bit.

Re 2. Interesting that noise has had little mention in the other essays. I will read your essay, with pleasure, and let you know how I got on with it.

Thank you very much for your good wishes. Georgina

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Jonathan J. Dickau wrote on Jul. 24, 2013 @ 23:03 GMT
Good to see you back online Georgina.

I for one was beginning to worry, as you'd mentioned health problems. I hope you are doing better, and I am glad your essay is doing well. Fine work, one more time.

Have Fun!

Jonathan

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Than Tin wrote on Jul. 25, 2013 @ 04:42 GMT
Hi Georgina

Richard Feynman in his Nobel Acceptance Speech (http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/19
65/feynman-lecture.html)

said: “It always seems odd to me that the fundamental laws of physics, when discovered, can appear in so many different forms that are not apparently identical at first, but with a little mathematical fiddling you can show the...

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Peter Jackson wrote on Jul. 26, 2013 @ 18:09 GMT
Georgina,

I've been waiting with baited breath for the comments you promised. But I know you'll be as buried in essay as me. I also note I hadn't rated yours so if you just felt a little hike that was me. You well also have read mine and, not being familiar with the subtleties of Bell's theorem, missed it's value. If so there's now a more detailed explanation on the blog. The result is NO...

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Author Georgina Woodward replied on Jul. 26, 2013 @ 23:05 GMT
Peter,

I will read it. I read the abstract and thought this is something for later as I could see from that that I would find it hard work, as you had said I would. Glad to hear you are getting some good responses. No doubt the scores will change a lot in the last few days of voting as they have in previous contests. I have only voted for a few essays so far, the ones I could make my mind up easily about. I'm not going to ignore yours. Don't worry. Georgina

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Peter Jackson replied on Jul. 31, 2013 @ 13:58 GMT
Georgina,

Glad it was better than the abstract impined. Lesson learned. Now sorted out and catching up with scoring, and yours now added.

Best of luck in the run in.

Peter

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Peter Jackson replied on Jul. 31, 2013 @ 14:03 GMT
Ooops, sorry if I got you all excited, it tells me I already did. Difficult to remember, and I hadn't noted it.

Peter

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Akinbo Ojo wrote on Jul. 26, 2013 @ 19:54 GMT
Can I have something about information from Georgina on my blog? A comment will be appreciated, especially as we have some agreement on the existence/non-existence information.

Best regards,

Akinbo

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Stephen James Anastasi wrote on Jul. 28, 2013 @ 08:02 GMT
Hello Georgina

Hoping you are feeling better. I found your essay to be readable (mostly) and a nice walk through some foundational matters. Some thoughts:

You said:

According to Niels Bohr, “there is no quantum world. There is only an abstract quantum physical description. It is wrong to think that the task of the physicist is to find out how nature is. Physics concerns what we can say about nature”

How one (ie. Bohr) can 'say about nature' when one cannot say how nature is, seems self-defeating to me.

Anyway...

Barbour: 'So a direct correlation between macroscopic observed reality and theoretical quantum realm should not be expected.'

I would have thought that the aim of a model of physical reality is exactly that the model has a strong correspondence to our apparent reality, and so at least in theory should be able to describe the macroscopic world.

Your thoughts? (you might post on my essay page that you have responded, and I will have another look).

Best wishes

Stephen Anastasi

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Author Georgina Woodward replied on Jul. 28, 2013 @ 09:40 GMT
Hello Stephen,

Re Niels Bohr's words: I think it is possible to talk about something that is related to the function of the natural world without being an accurate portrait of it. Probabilities do become very accurate when very large samples are taken, the bigger the sample the more accurate. That is something about nature but it isn't a description of how nature is at any one time. I don't think that therefore we should say probabilities are not realistic. They have at least a quasi reality.

Re Julian Barbour's words I agree with him because the two are very different "realms". The observed reality is described as space-time but the theoretical quantum realm is not in space-time but a theoretical space over time. The results of lots of experimental outcomes amalgamated into 'a picture' of what might be rather than what is. Well that's my naive understanding.

I have just read Ken Wharton's essay and he describes a way in which some of the problems of incompatibility of QM and observed space-time could be overcome.A good read. Apparent reality is in my opinion only one part of reality and the underlying reality that produces potential sensory data together with observer selection gives the observed outcomes. I included a diagram setting out that explanatory framework as part of my essay last year contest, there is a high resolution version in that essays discussion thread.

Thank you very much for reading my essay, your feedback and your interesting question.

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Stephen James Anastasi replied on Jul. 28, 2013 @ 11:32 GMT
Thanks Georgina

Is quasi-reality, reality? I suppose one could say, 'There exists a probability that...' but to me this would be a statement found in a possible ontology, rather than an actual ontology (see my essay . In this sense the reality is only a possible reality that has no proper existence.

Interesting.

Stephen.

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Author Georgina Woodward replied on Jul. 28, 2013 @ 21:23 GMT
Quasi: 1.almost but not really, seemingly 2. resembling but not actually being:so-called from the "Collins concise dictionary of the English language". Given this definition it seems that quasi reality is the best description of probabilities and theoretical quantum objects in superposition. Reality to my mind is what -is- and the perception of what -was- via the sensory system directly or using an intermediate device or sensitive material. Probabilities are excluded from reality as they are a prediction of the likelihood of what is but not yet observed (or will be) from amalgamated knowledge of what was.They can be found outside of Object and Image reality on the RICP diagram that I mentioned together with other theoretical things.

Re the quantum realm when I said a theoretical space over time I did not of course mean over time as in everyday passage of time. I was trying to give a sense of the amalgamation of data. The quantum objects are 'timeless' not existing at or extracted from any single time.

I hope that helps clarify what I was trying to convey. I will read your essay.

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basudeba mishra wrote on Jul. 28, 2013 @ 12:09 GMT
Dear Madam,

This is our post to Dr. Wiliam Mc Harris in his thread. We thought it may be of interest to you.

Mathematics is the science of accumulation and reduction of similars or partly similars. The former is linear and the later non-linear. Because of the high degree of interdependence and interconnectedness, it is no surprise that everything in the Universe is mostly...

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Domenico Oricchio wrote on Jul. 29, 2013 @ 15:58 GMT
Thank you for read my essay, it is a pleasure to be read among such a large number of essays.

The grammar errors are necessary in a letter to brothers, and for message to friends.

I think that the self-replicating programs like a life form is a common knowledge; I read some research, and program, after writing my essay.

The connection between bit and it is a little hidden: if...

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Cristinel Stoica wrote on Jul. 30, 2013 @ 11:51 GMT
Dear Georgina,

Congratulations for your very nice and well written essay! You present a lucid description of what information is in science, starting from von Baeyer, Shannon, Barbour, and ending with your own beautiful vision.

Best regards,

Cristi Stoica

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john stephan selye wrote on Aug. 2, 2013 @ 16:28 GMT
Having read so many insightful essays, I am probably not the only one to find that my views have crystallized, and that I can now move forward with growing confidence. I cannot exactly say who in the course of the competition was most inspiring - probably it was the continuous back and forth between so many of us. In this case, we should all be grateful to each other.

If I may, I'd like to...

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Anonymous wrote on Aug. 3, 2013 @ 06:04 GMT
Re the truth. I can think of a good analogy which I could have included in the essay. That is the levitation illusion, where it appears that all support of a person is removed and yet they do not fall. This illusion, at least the version I know, like many others, relies upon the restricted viewpoint of the audience who are unable to see how the support is given. The line of sight being obscured by the body of the illusionist.

The truth could be ascertained by having a view from all directions around the "levitating" person. The truth comes not from many people observing the same thing under the same conditions but from having many different viewpoints, so that the truth can not be hidden. The truth being the source of all of the manifestations observed not just the ones that provide the illusion.

Incidentally, in science it is repetition of experiments under the same conditions which is used to give supposed objectivity, which it seems to me some people regard as synonymous with the truth. However only when an experiment has been conducted in every way is a complete picture obtained and it is *the complete picture* that represents the truth.

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Author Georgina Woodward replied on Aug. 5, 2013 @ 23:34 GMT
That Anonymous was me

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Margriet Anne O'Regan wrote on Aug. 5, 2013 @ 00:57 GMT
FQXi commentary iii Aug 5

Hi Georgina,

I so wish I had started earlier to review & comment on all the entries – but being new to this excellent essay competition I simply didn’t appreciate the realities of it all !!

As you will have seen, my claim is that it is the full set of geometrical objects present here in our universe is that which constitutes ‘information’....

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Author Georgina Woodward replied on Aug. 5, 2013 @ 02:15 GMT
Dear Margriet,

Thank you for that further clarification of the content of your essay and inspiration behind it. Your reply is a substantial length but I have nonetheless read it from beginning to end. I can see from it that you are passionate about your work.

Your reply to me would have been better on your own essay comments page, after my post to you; where other readers of your essay would be able to find it and might possibly find it useful in their evaluation of your own essay.

Kind Regards Georgina

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Sreenath B N wrote on Aug. 5, 2013 @ 06:30 GMT
Georgina,

You have defined and discussed the concept of information in different fields and from different angles. You have your own definition of information as well. The way you have treated information in biology is notable. In my essay (http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/1827) too I have defined information in the context of biology and discussed its relation to biology. Since you are a biologist you might find it interesting. You have given equal importance to both It and Bit by saying that “It from Bit and Bit from It, together”. I too agree with this. I appreciate the way you have handled the subject in your own original way with elegance and lucidity. So I give excellent rating. Feel free to express your comments on my essay in my thread.

Best wishes,

Sreenath

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eAmazigh M. HANNOU wrote on Aug. 5, 2013 @ 22:58 GMT
Dear Georgina,

We are at the end of this essay contest.

In conclusion, at the question to know if Information is more fundamental than Matter, there is a good reason to answer that Matter is made of an amazing mixture of eInfo and eEnergy, at the same time.

Matter is thus eInfo made with eEnergy rather than answer it is made with eEnergy and eInfo ; because eInfo is eEnergy,...

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Charles Raldo Card wrote on Aug. 6, 2013 @ 04:01 GMT
Late-in-the-Day Thoughts about the Essays I’ve Read

I am sending to you the following thoughts because I found your essay particularly well stated, insightful, and helpful, even though in certain respects we may significantly diverge in our viewpoints. Thank you! Lumping and sorting is a dangerous adventure; let me apologize in advance if I have significantly misread or misrepresented...

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Lorraine Ford wrote on Aug. 6, 2013 @ 15:00 GMT
Hi Georgina,

I found this to be a most interesting essay, a really good discussion about the important aspects of information. I like the way you go into the details of "object reality" and "image reality" and their interaction including possible manifestations and possible selections.

I found many similarities to aspects of my own essay. Some quotes that I liked were:

"Meaning is within subjective Image reality"

"Information is also the carried potential to direct change (function) in Object reality and carried potential meaning that may lead to manifest meaning in subjective Image reality. This expanded definition is not just about form and communication but also about function and meaning."

"It can be seen that information has to be carried and does not exist on its own. There can't be spin or polarization without something to have those attributes."

Re "When remembering an item it is usually not stored as a lone object token but will be stored with a larger collection of cognitive units ..." on page 3, you might be interested in reference 12 from my essay ( http://newscenter.berkeley.edu/2012/12/19/semanticspace "Scientists construct first map of how the brain organizes everything we see") which is about the same matter.

I have given you a good mark. Best of luck in the contest,

Lorraine

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Paul Borrill wrote on Aug. 7, 2013 @ 19:21 GMT
Dear Georgina,

I have now finished reviewing all 180 essays for the contest and appreciate your contribution to this competition.

I have been thoroughly impressed at the breadth, depth and quality of the ideas represented in this contest. In true academic spirit, if you have not yet reviewed my essay, I invite you to do so and leave your comments.

You can find the latest version of my essay here:

http://fqxi.org/data/forum-attachments/Borrill-TimeOne-
V1.1a.pdf

(sorry if the fqxi web site splits this url up, I haven’t figured out a way to not make it do that).

May the best essays win!

Kind regards,

Paul Borrill

paul at borrill dot com

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Wilhelmus de Wilde de Wilde wrote on Aug. 13, 2013 @ 15:23 GMT
Hi Georgina,

I answered (tried to) your question on my thread (topic 1810).

best regards

Wilhelmus

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sridattadev kancharla wrote on Oct. 30, 2013 @ 19:02 GMT
Dear Georgina,

I hope you will enjoy the following blog and videos in it.

Any Body Can Derive - Everything From Geometry

Love,

Sridattadev.

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