Search FQXi

Please also note that we do not accept unsolicited posts and we cannot review, or open new threads for, unsolicited articles or papers. Requests to review or post such materials will not be answered. If you have your own novel physics theory or model, which you would like to post for further discussion among then FQXi community, then please add them directly to the "Alternative Models of Reality" thread, or to the "Alternative Models of Cosmology" thread. Thank you.

Contests Home

Current Essay Contest

Contest Partners: The Peter and Patricia Gruber Foundation, SubMeta, and Scientific American

Previous Contests

Undecidability, Uncomputability, and Unpredictability Essay Contest
December 24, 2019 - April 24, 2020
Contest Partners: Fetzer Franklin Fund, and The Peter and Patricia Gruber Foundation

What Is “Fundamental”
October 28, 2017 to January 22, 2018
Sponsored by the Fetzer Franklin Fund and The Peter & Patricia Gruber Foundation

Wandering Towards a Goal
How can mindless mathematical laws give rise to aims and intention?
December 2, 2016 to March 3, 2017
Contest Partner: The Peter and Patricia Gruber Fund.

Trick or Truth: The Mysterious Connection Between Physics and Mathematics
Contest Partners: Nanotronics Imaging, The Peter and Patricia Gruber Foundation, and The John Templeton Foundation
Media Partner: Scientific American

How Should Humanity Steer the Future?
January 9, 2014 - August 31, 2014
Contest Partners: Jaan Tallinn, The Peter and Patricia Gruber Foundation, The John Templeton Foundation, and Scientific American

It From Bit or Bit From It
March 25 - June 28, 2013
Contest Partners: The Gruber Foundation, J. Templeton Foundation, and Scientific American

Questioning the Foundations
Which of Our Basic Physical Assumptions Are Wrong?
May 24 - August 31, 2012
Contest Partners: The Peter and Patricia Gruber Foundation, SubMeta, and Scientific American

Is Reality Digital or Analog?
November 2010 - February 2011
Contest Partners: The Peter and Patricia Gruber Foundation and Scientific American

What's Ultimately Possible in Physics?
May - October 2009
Contest Partners: Astrid and Bruce McWilliams

The Nature of Time
August - December 2008

Forum Home
Introduction

Order posts by:
chronological order
most recent first

Posts by the author are highlighted in orange; posts by FQXi Members are highlighted in blue.

RECENT POSTS IN THIS TOPIC

Sara: on 10/6/12 at 10:58am UTC, wrote Dear authors, where the ontological foundations of geometry of space-time? ...

Sergey Fedosin: on 10/4/12 at 5:23am UTC, wrote If you do not understand why your rating dropped down. As I found ratings...

Hoang Hai: on 9/25/12 at 14:53pm UTC, wrote Dear You take out the question and opinions solve but not yet specific...

Peter Jackson: on 9/21/12 at 15:02pm UTC, wrote Dear All, "Assuming that a classical underlying space-time geometry...

Yuri Danoyan: on 9/17/12 at 23:28pm UTC, wrote For better clarification my approach I sending to you Frank Wilczek’s 3...

Benjamin Dribus: on 9/12/12 at 23:02pm UTC, wrote Hi All, I read your essay with great interest. It is rather sobering from...

Yuri Danoyan: on 9/5/12 at 23:41pm UTC, wrote Dear Jayakar I am not Yuri Bonder.My name is Yuri Danoyan. For whom is...

Lawrence Crowell: on 9/5/12 at 23:09pm UTC, wrote Dear ABCS, I found your essay to be interesting. I am also intrigued by...

RECENT FORUM POSTS

Josh Hoffman: "Frontiers of Fundamental Physics The world's most important and..." in Frontiers of Fundamental...

Steve Dufourny: "Dear Jonathan, this fifth force possessing the main codes if it exists is..." in 16th Marcel Grossmann...

Steve Dufourny: "I try now to correlate my equation about the mass energy equivalence of the..." in 16th Marcel Grossmann...

Steve Dufourny: "Hi , the problem is complex considering this consciousness. There are..." in The Quantum Music Makers

jim h: ""One approach is to recognize that [...] a conscious experience depends on..." in The Quantum Music Makers

Jim Snowdon: "For us, time seems real, enforced by the relentless, constant rotational..." in The Nature of Time

John Cox: "Our human sense of a flow of time only suggests that there are some..." in Can Time Be Saved From...

PhysicsPfan: "The phrase above "...argued that time does not exist at all" shows how..." in Can Time Be Saved From...

RECENT ARTICLES

Quanthoven's Fifth
A quantum computer composes chart-topping music, programmed by physicists striving to understand consciousness.

The Math of Consciousness: Q&A with Kobi Kremnitzer
A meditating mathematician is developing a theory of conscious experience to help understand the boundary between the quantum and classical world.

Can We Feel What It’s Like to Be Quantum?
Underground experiments in the heart of the Italian mountains are testing the links between consciousness and collapse theories of quantum physics.

The Thermodynamic Limits of Intelligence: Q&A with David Wolpert
Calculating the energy needed to acquire and compute information could help explain the (in)efficiency of human brains and guide the search for extra-terrestrial intelligence.

Gambling Against the Second Law
Using precision thermometry to make mini heat engines, that might, momentarily, bust through the thermodynamic limit.

FQXi FORUM
August 19, 2022

CATEGORY: Questioning the Foundations Essay Contest (2012) [back]
TOPIC: A Fundamental Space-Time Geometry: Does It Exist? by P. Aguilar, Y. Bonder, C. Chryssomalakos, and D. Sudarsky [refresh]

Author Yuri Bonder wrote on Sep. 3, 2012 @ 14:10 GMT
Essay Abstract

The search for a quantum theory of gravity must include the recovery of the classical space-time. We consider some of the diculties that must be confronted in any such enterprise. These problems seem to go beyond the technical level, to the point of questioning the overall feasibility of the project. The main issue is related to the fact that, in the quantum theory, it is not possible to assign a trajectory to a physical object and, on the other hand, according to the basic tenants of the geometrization of gravity, it is precisely the trajectories of localized objects that de ne the space-time geometry. This indicates that we should revise the standard geometrical concepts and explore the corresponding notions that could have, at least in principle, operational meaning and that would be at the heart of the above mentioned recovery. The insights gained in this analysis should be relevant to the quest for a quantum theory of gravity even before such theory is completely developed, and might help refocus some of its goals.

Author Bio

P. Aguilar: M. Sc. student at the National Autonomous University of Mexico (UNAM) Y. Bonder: Postdoctoral researcher at UNAM. C. Chryssomalakos and D. Sudarsky: Professors at UNAM

Anton Lorenz Vrba wrote on Sep. 3, 2012 @ 23:25 GMT
Hi

Your  noteworthy contribution to this contest underlines the global goal to reconcile the gravitational and electric-charge phenomena under a common quantum theory.

Have you ever given thought that the gravity and electric-charge  attraction underly a common phenomena? This I propose in my essay, if that thought can be befriended the development of a common quantum theory may be easier.

To P.A.: As a student you may want to explain or comment the paradox of section 2.3 in my essay Rethinking Geometry and Experience

Regards

Anton

report post as inappropriate

ABRAHAM wrote on Sep. 4, 2012 @ 01:50 GMT
Yuri,

An admirable attempt to bring to life some of the serious obstacles confronting the development of a quantum theory of Gravity.

I hasten to agree that any attempt to develop such a theory from the current framework of Gravitation [ie Newtonian & GR] faces some serious difficulties most notably: No definition and distinction between mass & Matter.

I would suggest that a bottom-up approach is better suited to achieving the goal of a quantum theory of Gravitation, which is what I have done in Tetryonics [see attached SM particle models].

The strict geometrics of equilateral energies in Tetryonics provides a foundational geometry for the Energy-Space-Time interactions of all fields of Force along with a clear, enforceable distinction between interactive EM masses and gravitational Matter. Revealing nett Gravitation to be the result of 3 quantum field interactions [see attached] as Anton has alluded to in his comment.

I look forward to your comments on this approach to QG [and perhaps a review of my own essay].

report post as inappropriate

Paul Reed wrote on Sep. 4, 2012 @ 13:23 GMT
“The search for a quantum theory of gravity must include the recovery of the classical space-time”.

Why? Ask yourselves what, physically, corresponds with the concepts of space, and time. Physics is supposed to be an objective explanation of physical existence (as manifest to us, ie not a belief system), and I can identify nothing that physically exists which could constitute either space or time.

Paul

report post as inappropriate

Yuri Danoyan wrote on Sep. 4, 2012 @ 14:07 GMT
Yuri

I have special point of view to Space-Time. I wrote about it to Dr. Stephen Weinberg.See my essay

http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/1413

report post as inappropriate

Jayakar Johnson Joseph wrote on Sep. 4, 2012 @ 18:00 GMT
Dear Yuri Bonder,

Continuum of eigen-rotational string of matters in Coherently-cyclic cluster-matter universe model, is analogue to space-time continuum; in that world line is applicable only for the macroscopic object of dense tetrahedral-branes to describe its path and not applicable for the dynamics of a string that differs from that of a particle.

With best wishes,

Jayakar

report post as inappropriate
Yuri Danoyan replied on Sep. 5, 2012 @ 23:41 GMT
Dear Jayakar

I am not Yuri Bonder.My name is Yuri Danoyan.

report post as inappropriate

Lawrence B Crowell wrote on Sep. 5, 2012 @ 23:09 GMT
Dear ABCS,

I found your essay to be interesting. I am also intrigued by the mention of nonassociativity. Towards the end of my essay nonassociativity is briefly discussed. In further blog discussions more is discussed about this, where my work is a sort of prelude to nonassociative geometry. Your approach appears to be almost a pre-quantization procedure for the noncommutative geometry of spacetime. I will read your paper arXiv:1205.0501 for greater details.

Cheers LC

report post as inappropriate

Member Benjamin F. Dribus wrote on Sep. 12, 2012 @ 23:02 GMT
Hi All,

I read your essay with great interest. It is rather sobering from my point of view, since emergent spacetime is my own favorite way of thinking about quantum gravity. I have a few comments and questions.

1. Of the usual “discrete” FTS theories that you mention (LQG, CS, CDT), do you have one in mind more than the others in your research program?

2. On a related...

view entire post

report post as inappropriate

Yuri Danoyan wrote on Sep. 17, 2012 @ 23:28 GMT
For better clarification my approach

I sending to you Frank Wilczek’s 3 keen articles

http://ctpweb.lns.mit.edu/physics_today/phystoday/Ab
s_limits388.pdf

http://ctpweb.lns.mit.edu/physics_today/physt
oday/Abs_limits393.pdf

http://ctpweb.lns.mit.edu/physics_toda
y/phystoday/Abs_limits400.pdf

All the best

report post as inappropriate

Peter Jackson wrote on Sep. 21, 2012 @ 15:02 GMT
Dear All,

"Assuming that a classical underlying space-time geometry exists, how does the quantum nature of the available probing objects modify the way in which we perceive the geometry?"

I think you hit the nail on the head in your abstract. but also;

" ...characteristics of the center of mass of extended objects."

"...in order to calculate the center of mass of the complete extended

object, all the individual particles have to be identifed as such, as neglecting their internal compositeness would lead to inconsistencies."

"...the trajectories of localized objects that define the space-time geometry."

and the need to; "...revise the standard geometrical concepts and explore the corresponding notions that could have, at least in principle, operational meaning."

I fear your methodology and language may be too steeped in the old mainstream paradigm, but may be wrong as it is surely open minds that count.

Certainly I agree "the recovery of the classical space-time." from the quanta is the holy grail, or 'unification'.

Well written. I hope you may read and comment on the more 'Locally Real' approach I take in my own essay, with some exiting results, and look forward to your thoughts on those and commonality.

Very best wishes

Peter

PS. Paul; For 'space-time' I think you may first substitute CSL in your own language, but leading to gravity.

report post as inappropriate

Hoang cao Hai wrote on Sep. 25, 2012 @ 14:53 GMT
Dear

You take out the question and opinions solve but not yet specific conclusions.

Kind Regards !

Hải.Caohoàng of THE INCORRECT ASSUMPTIONS AND A CORRECT THEORY

August 23, 2012 - 11:51 GMT on this essay contest

report post as inappropriate

Sergey G Fedosin wrote on Oct. 4, 2012 @ 05:23 GMT
If you do not understand why your rating dropped down. As I found ratings in the contest are calculated in the next way. Suppose your rating is
$R_1$
and
$N_1$
was the quantity of people which gave you ratings. Then you have
$S_1=R_1 N_1$
of points. After it anyone give you
$dS$
of points so you have
$S_2=S_1+ dS$
of points and
$N_2=N_1+1$
is the common quantity of the people which gave you ratings. At the same time you will have
$S_2=R_2 N_2$
of points. From here, if you want to be R2 > R1 there must be:
$S_2/ N_2>S_1/ N_1$
or
$(S_1+ dS) / (N_1+1) >S_1/ N_1$
or
$dS >S_1/ N_1 =R_1$
In other words if you want to increase rating of anyone you must give him more points
$dS$
then the participant`s rating
$R_1$
was at the moment you rated him. From here it is seen that in the contest are special rules for ratings. And from here there are misunderstanding of some participants what is happened with their ratings. Moreover since community ratings are hided some participants do not sure how increase ratings of others and gives them maximum 10 points. But in the case the scale from 1 to 10 of points do not work, and some essays are overestimated and some essays are drop down. In my opinion it is a bad problem with this Contest rating process. I hope the FQXI community will change the rating process.

Sergey Fedosin

report post as inappropriate

Sara wrote on Oct. 6, 2012 @ 10:58 GMT
Dear authors, where the ontological foundations of geometry of space-time? I did not find it in the essay. Sincerely, Sara

report post as inappropriate