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Questioning the Foundations Essay Contest (2012)
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Gravity Can Be Neither Classical nor Quantized by Sabine Hossenfelder
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Author Sabine Hossenfelder wrote on Aug. 31, 2012 @ 12:07 GMT
Essay AbstractI argue that it is possible for a theory to be neither quantized nor classical. We should therefore give up the assumption that the fundamental theory which describes gravity at shortest distances must either be quantized, or quantization must emerge from a fundamentally classical theory. To illustrate my point I will discuss an example for a theory that is neither classical nor quantized, and argue that it has the potential to resolve the tensions between the quantum field theories of the standard model and general relativity.
Author BioSabine is an assistant professor at Nordita in Stockholm. Her work is mostly focused on the phenomenology of quantum gravity. In her free time she blogs at backreaction.blogspot.com
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Patrick Alan Hutchinson wrote on Aug. 31, 2012 @ 18:20 GMT
Hello Sabine
Thanks for this essay. It summarises what appears to be a real problem and outlines what might be a real solution. It does not give many details of either the problem or the possible solution, but they may be in the references. This is all good. The questions which come to mind are:
1. Does it make sense to say that Planck's constant varies? Might it be a quantity, like the speed of light, which is taken as an absolute unit? Are there any other natural absolute units which might be used instead? The equation you give on page 3 for G relates G and c and Planck's constant and the Planck mass. Is there a good reason for regarding any one of these as less fundamental than the others, and so as dependent on them?
2. If Planck's constant varies, what might be the equation (or whatever) describing how it varies? What might be the "suitable potential" which could be added to the Lagrangian? Are there any physical or geometric criteria for choosing any particular potential?
If these points can be given satisfactory answers, this all looks like promising research.
Regards, Alan H.
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Bee replied on Sep. 1, 2012 @ 10:26 GMT
Hi Patrick,
Planck's constant is dimensionful, so if you want to speak of it varying, you should strictly speaking normalize it to make a dimensionless constant first. I did mention this in the arxiv paper - the normalization that suggests itself is the measured value of the Planck constant (at low temperatures). I'm not entirely sure what you mean with "variation". Do you mean a spatial variation or a temporal one? In the case I discussed there shouldn't be a spatial variation of Planck's constant unless you are in strong curvature regimes, ie towards black holes or towards the Big Bang singularity. (Think of particle masses, ie the higgs vev, it doesn't vary either.)
What might be a suitable potential, well, it has to be one that leads to a symmetry breaking at high temperatures and at the same time have quantum corrections that allow the convergence of the perturbative expansion, as I explained towards the end of the text. I don't know if such a potential exists. To begin with it would depend on the particle content of the theory. I don't think there's an easy answer to that, but all I wanted to say is that it does not seem impossible, and I believe it's a possibility worth investigating.
Best,
B.
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Alan Hutchinson replied on Sep. 1, 2012 @ 23:10 GMT
Hello again Bee
Thanks for your reply.
When I wrote of Planck's constant "varying", I wasn't thinking carefully about the circumstances. Variation with either space or time would be worth understanding. As to "normalizing", perhaps I had better read your arxiv paper before writing more.
About choice of potential: you suggest two criteria.
The first, causing symmetry breaking, sounds worthwhile, but if there is any symmetry breaking potential then there will probably be very many such. It would be good to have a criterion which constrains the form of the potential much more. The second, convergence of the perturbative expansion, sounds rather ad hoc. It seems based on a model of calculation which excludes every conceivable model which is not just a simple perturbation of some basic state.
These are not criticisms of your essay. As far as I can tell, the entire main stream of current physics theory is developed around models described by such perturbations. The problem of convergence haunts them all. Even more serious: this approach excludes the possibility of models which are not such perturbations. The form of model suggested in my submission avoids this issue, which is one reason why I thought it worth writing. As things stand in current theory, the entire structure of most theories proposed these days is constrained by the very specific syntax which is available for describing Lagrangians in the notation inherited from a century-old form of maths. This aspect of theoretical physics has some catching up to do.
Best wishes
(Patrick) Alan H.
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Don Limuti wrote on Aug. 31, 2012 @ 18:44 GMT
Sabine,
A rose by any other name would still be a rose, I think? Or would it require another theory?
I like your well written essay and to the point. And you are not afraid of taking some risk. Cool!
I was hoping you were going to enter this contest, so I could thank you for making my entry possible. One of your blogs on "backreaction" gave me enough confidence to submit "An Elephant in the Room" and have some fun.
Thank you,
Don L.
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Bee replied on Sep. 1, 2012 @ 10:13 GMT
Hi Don,
It makes me happy to hear that my blogging has encouraged you to write down your thoughts. I'll have a look at your essay. Best,
B.
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James Lee Hoover wrote on Aug. 31, 2012 @ 19:05 GMT
Sabine,
You wisely set a modest and an achievable goal, though well-presented.
"I hope to have convinced the reader that giving up the assumption that
a theory is either classical or quantized can be fruitful and offers a new possibility to address the problems with quantum gravity."
My ruminations about gravity tended toward observations that could be questioned and details that could point elsewhere.
Jim
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James T. Dwyer wrote on Aug. 31, 2012 @ 19:32 GMT
Hi Sabine,
Your essay is very nicely structured, although there's little I can reasonably comprehend. Therefore, I'm certain:) what's really needed here are some insights from an uninformed pedestrian passerby...
- There seem to be two alternative, mutually exclusive characteristic properties of matter: kinetic self-propagating momentum and potential inertial mass. By that I mean...
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Hi Sabine,
Your essay is very nicely structured, although there's little I can reasonably comprehend. Therefore, I'm certain:) what's really needed here are some insights from an uninformed pedestrian passerby...
- There seem to be two alternative, mutually exclusive characteristic properties of matter: kinetic self-propagating momentum and potential inertial mass. By that I mean that there may be some constant particle emission energy that is configured by external conditions of emission, vacuum energy density, for example, to allow propagation or to prevent it, perhaps as a fluctuating configuration state. Perhaps matter is either physically configured as a linearly directed waveform or as a self-contained sphere of inwardly directed energy. In its inwardly directed spherical configuration, applied external energy might be absorbed, increasing effective inertial mass.
- The effects of gravity simply do not seem to appear in the interactions of quantum particles. Gravity seems to exist as a property of matter when material mass is aggregated, localized within a region of space. Since the principal effect of gravity seems to be the acceleration of discrete objects of mass from space towards objects of superior mass, perhaps gravitation is produced by an interaction between potential mass-energy and the kinetic vacuum energy contained within space. The presence of both aggregated masses and unoccupied space would be required to produce the interaction identified as the the gravitational effect. Essentially, the localizing potential energy of mass would have a contracting effect on vacuum energy, increasing its local density and its accelerating effect on other objects of mass (which produce their own external gravitational effects in proportion to their potential mass-energy).
I think this type of physical interaction could directly produce the effects described by general relativity using its system of abstract spacetime dimensional coordinates.
It seems there might be no quantum gravitational effect, only quantum potential mass-energy; the gravitational effect requires its interaction with substantial amounts of external vacuum energy.
That's the way things appear to this outside observer, anyway.
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Bee replied on Sep. 1, 2012 @ 10:30 GMT
Hi Jim,
I don't know what you mean when you say "The effects of gravity simply do not seem to appear in the interactions of quantum particles." They appear if you put in a gravitational interaction, and you can do that in a perturbative quantization coupled to the rest of the standard model. The problem is just that this theory only makes sense as an effective theory, not as a fundamental one. Best,
B.
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James T. Dwyer replied on Sep. 1, 2012 @ 18:08 GMT
Hi B.,
Of course I prefaced my comments by indicating that I'm not a physicist, much less a quantum theorist, but, that being said, I was referring to observational evidence of gravitational interactions among quantum particles. While models can be constructed describing various forms of gravitational interactions, is their observational evidence supporting a quantitative perturbative interaction among particles?
Of course, that was not the main point of my little comment, but you're certainly free to dismiss or ignore it in its entirely...
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James T. Dwyer replied on Sep. 1, 2012 @ 18:41 GMT
B.,
Actually, shouldn't a quantum gravitational effect be manifested more specifically as an effective attraction interaction among particles - proportional to their mass?
Has any such interaction among particles been observed?
Jim
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Georgina Parry wrote on Aug. 31, 2012 @ 20:36 GMT
Dear Sabine,
Good luck in the competition. Your essay is about an interesting and important subject which is very relevant to the essay question. With so many possible subjects to consider, you probably made a wise choice applying your expertise to just this one.
PS. I do read your thought provoking and educational blog from time to time- and watched your music video.
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Bee replied on Sep. 1, 2012 @ 10:16 GMT
Dear Georgina,
I'm glad to hear you find it interesting. The video... was fun. I guess I'm overcompensating for my conservative colleagues ;o) Best,
B.
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Georgina Parry replied on Oct. 5, 2012 @ 07:23 GMT
Hi Bee,
I am still hopeful that you might get the chance to take a look at my essay before voting ends. Here's a link to a web site that explains more.
RICP explanatory framework There is an older version of diagram 1. on that site. I have put a link to the high resolution file of the latest version, used in the essay, on my discussion thread. Kind regards, Georgina.
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Marcus wrote on Aug. 31, 2012 @ 22:57 GMT
Just pointing out, in case anybody missed it, that the essay "Gravity can be neither classical nor quantized" has a companion article at http://arxiv.org/abs/1208.5874 called
"A possibiliity to solve the problems of quantizing gravity"
It helps to read both. I expect the two articles together will be a landmark and will noticeably change the way quantum relativists look at the problem of a combined theory of geometry and matter. The result can be something more interesting, and better, than either a classical or a quantum theory.
I have to say--the Hossenfelder idea is such a bold stroke, and seems to have enough possibility of succeeding, that it is actually entertaining to think about. It is *enjoyable* to mull over such a creative yet fundamentally simple proposal.
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Member Benjamin F. Dribus wrote on Aug. 31, 2012 @ 23:23 GMT
Sabine,
A very interesting essay. A few questions come to mind.
1. You mostly describe quantum theory in the language of operators. Do these ideas still make sense, and what do they look like, using Feynman's sum-over-histories approach?
2. It seems natural at first glance to try to apply these ideas to inflation and dark energy. This may be hopelessly naive, but have you thought about letting your "Planck field" change sign in some regime to produce a negative G?
3. Are you envisioning sharp phase transitions or gradual ones? The reason I ask is because if you went to an even more radical paradigm and incorporated discreteness, you might possibly make use of the phase transitions of random graph dynamics.
To get a better idea of what is motivating these questions, you might take a look at my essay
On the Foundational Assumptions of Modern Physics[link]
Take care,
Ben Dribus
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Member Benjamin F. Dribus replied on Sep. 1, 2012 @ 01:11 GMT
(sorry for the link formatting; I forgot the slash!)
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Bee replied on Sep. 1, 2012 @ 10:39 GMT
Hi Ben,
These are all very good questions that I don't have quick answers to. As to 1: I can only say I certainly hope it does, it would be more elegant. As to 2. I think this might be similar to a signature change. It might be very interesting to think about further. And regarding 3. I haven't been envisioning this one way or the other. I'd think this is a question that would have to be addressed by experimental constraints, for example, as you say, inflationary imprints in the CMB because it affects what it means to have a quantum fluctuation to begin with. In fact, this seems to me the most fruitful direction to make contact with observation. Best,
B.
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Member Benjamin F. Dribus replied on Sep. 2, 2012 @ 06:55 GMT
Thanks for the answers! I didn't realize until I checked your thread that it was you who posted as "Bee" over on my thread... I wrote some remarks there too. Anyway, you have some very good ideas... things I had never thought of before. Take care,
Ben
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Jayakar Johnson Joseph wrote on Sep. 1, 2012 @ 12:10 GMT
Dear Sabine Hossenfelder,
If the universe is with matters in continuum, gravitation is considered as the tensor product on deformation of matters, in that,
matters are eigen-rotational strings. To describe this gravity of the universe with an infinite sum of string-lengths, quantization is inevitable in that a different framework of quantization to be adapted that is non-perturbative and conformal.
With best wishes,
Jayakar
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Robert L. Oldershaw wrote on Sep. 1, 2012 @ 15:02 GMT
Hi Bee,
A quick hypothetical question.
In a toy cosmos wherein all masses were quantized, would gravitational interactions (even if intrinsically classical) be quantized by default?
I have asked this question in several discussion forums, but I don't think I have ever gotten a straight answer. Is the question flawed in some way?
Rob O
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Bee replied on Sep. 2, 2012 @ 07:25 GMT
What do you mean with "masses are quantized"?
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Robert L. Oldershaw replied on Sep. 2, 2012 @ 14:37 GMT
A very interesting question!
Say in this toy cosmos there are only the commonly known particles and atoms composed of them. The atoms have quantized masses in acordance with QM.
If the masses of all objects in this toy cosmos are quantized (not continuously variable masses, but definite masses, and in the case of atoms multiples of a unit mass), then are the gravitational interactions between and among them quantized by default, i.e., the interactions cannot be other than quantized even though GR is classical?
I do not see how to ask the question in a simpler or more straightforward way. For those seeking to quantize gravitation, this would seem like one of the most obvious first questions to ask of nature.
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Bee replied on Sep. 4, 2012 @ 07:36 GMT
I still don't know what you mean with "quantized masses in accordance with QM."
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Robert L. Oldershaw replied on Sep. 4, 2012 @ 15:03 GMT
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Harlan Swyers wrote on Sep. 1, 2012 @ 15:04 GMT
I am a big fan of arguing discreteness is an emergent property, however isn't discreteness effectively a two state proposition, either its there or it isn't. Since planks constant has arbitrary units, it seems unnatural to me to talk about it evolving in time. I am thinking you mean that some fundamental ratio is evolving with time, but I am not sure if that is a correct characterization.
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Bee replied on Sep. 2, 2012 @ 07:28 GMT
Hi Harlan,
As I already wrote in a comment above, in principle you are correct that since Planck's constant is dimensionful, one should take a ratio and then talk about a dimensionless quantity. The most natural thing to do seems to divide it by the measured (low energy) value of Planck's constant (\hbar_0). However, this would make the notation less intuitive, so I haven't done that for the sake of readability. I don't know what your referral to discreteness means. Best,
B.
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Harlan Swyers replied on Sep. 2, 2012 @ 13:34 GMT
Bee,
Thanks for the response.
The idea of discreteness comes from using planck's constant in hilbert space. The purpose of the constant is to transform an otherwise continuous spectrum into discrete spectrum. For instance
which contains two continous quantities is modified into
which now allows us to talk about integer components with respect to h (everything to the left of the decimal point e.g. x.yyyy where the integers are to the left of the decimal). When talking of infinties, the specific value of h isn't important, its that we now have discretized the product space HT. Since T is usually unbounded, HT is unbounded, so talking in infinities makes sense. Cantor showed that there is a definite distinction between discrete and continuous infinities.
This is the basis of the remark, the value of h isn't particularly important, so it isn't useful to discuss it changing with respect to time.
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Bee replied on Sep. 4, 2012 @ 07:41 GMT
Hi Harlan,
Operators can have continuous spectra. Best,
B.
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Harlan Swyers replied on Sep. 12, 2012 @ 14:06 GMT
Bee,
Thanks for the comment! I never discussed the representation as being an operator in the comment. If you chose to make that connection yourself that is fine, but you're projecting your own thoughts into the meaning of these things, which is fine too, but it does lead to a lot of miscommunication.
All you have to do is go look at how h is defined and used in the quantum...
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Bee,
Thanks for the comment! I never discussed the representation as being an operator in the comment. If you chose to make that connection yourself that is fine, but you're projecting your own thoughts into the meaning of these things, which is fine too, but it does lead to a lot of miscommunication.
All you have to do is go look at how h is defined and used in the quantum mechanics versus quantum mechanics.
If classical mechanics is arrived at when we reduce h, what does that mean? First of all this is already well known (page 19 of A. Zee QFT), so we shouldn't confuse that continuous spectrum emerge in classical limits against the effect of dividing through by a constant.
If we seriously look at h as it is to describe a single entity it does in fact describe wave like properties in terms of expected position and momentum. However, the only way we can reduce h in the classical realm is through process related to mutual information, defined as:
Which is understood in terms of relative entropy as:
As the wikipedia article on quantum mutual information states:
"if we assume the two variables x and y to be uncorrelated, mutual information is the discrepancy in uncertainty resulting from this (possibly erroneous) assumption."
It is easy to assume that when we are talking about classical variables, such as position and momentum, uncertainty does not scale with the number of systems, so as more and more systems are added, mutual information increases, so the uncertainty in larger systems decreases and the system becomes more classical...e.g. the classical world emerges as we scale up with more systems.
I might even be tempted to declare it a law, but that would be an easy way out.
In any case, this is sufficient to begin discussions about how the objective world of Einstein is a world dependent all the component density matrices, and the world as we know it is an emergent property in the limit of vanishing uncertainty.
This is also best explained by understanding the relationship of Wigner's function and the Moyal equation to Liouville's equation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Density_matrix#.22Quantum_Liou
ville.22.2C_Moyal.27s_equation)
As mutual information increases with the number of systems, the uncertainty decreases, this would appear as a decrease of the uncertainty (represented with h) in the equivalent classical phase space. So the classical world eventually starts to emerge in the limit of large systems.
This is probably closer to the concept you are trying to articulate in the article.
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Harlan Swyers replied on Sep. 12, 2012 @ 15:47 GMT
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Anton Lorenz Vrba wrote on Sep. 1, 2012 @ 15:54 GMT
Hi Sabine,
You write: "Classical general relativity predicts the formation of singularities under quite general circumstances. Such singularities are unphysical and should not occur in a fundamentally meaningful theory." That is a powerful statement.
As I understand it, the theoretical physics community proposes to get past the problem of gravitational singularities by a clever definition in quantum gravity; instead of investigating the possibility that gravity is wrongly defined.
An alternate ansatz to describe gravity, which will not lead to singularities, you will find in my essay
"Rethinking Geometry and Experiece", I really would appreciate your time and a feedback.
Regards
Anton
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Frank Martin DiMeglio wrote on Sep. 1, 2012 @ 20:03 GMT
Hi Sabine. You are correct that gravity is not fundamentally described and understood. That is a clear fact.
You do agree that true/real/theoretical quantum gravity requires grvitational and electromagnetic equivalency and balancing and gravity and inertia in FUNDAMENTAL equilibrium and balance? It also clearly requires balanced attraction and repulsion and FUNDAMENTAL instantaneity, correct?
If we want to fundamentally express F=ma, in conjunction with the fact that gravity cannot be shielded, everything listed in this post is necessary for true/real quantum gravity. (As you know, light is known to be quantum mechanical in nature.)
We really need to use the term "quantum gravity" in conjunction with the above terms.
Indeed, true/real quantum gravity FUNDAMENTALLY demonstrates F=ma. TRUE/REAL QUANTUM GRAVITY IS FUNDAMENTAL FORCE/ENERGY.
I would appreciate your thoughts. You are a very bright thinker, but outer space is a sinkhole. It is not fundamentally comprehensible or understandable.
My essay should be posted shortly. It will give you serious "food for thought". I would appreciate it if you would look at it and rate it.
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Neil Bates wrote on Sep. 2, 2012 @ 15:27 GMT
This is interesting, thanks Bee (BTW a prior 2nd-place winner.) The welcome defying of typical dichotomies reminds of my own insistence, the previous contest, that reality was neither digital nor analog (i.e., not fully representable by any kind of actual math.) Considering the big troubles that trying to conjoin GR and QM have provided, why not try a whole new attitude?
BTW I submitted a new essay for this contest, late Friday night so it hasn't shown up yet. The title gives a hint, it's about quantum measurement: "Can repeated interactions show more about a photon than current theory allows?"
PS: Is there a general contest discussion thread, like there was last time? I can't find one. tx. Cheers and good "luck" to all.
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Frank Makinson wrote on Sep. 2, 2012 @ 18:01 GMT
Sabine,
I have followed some of the concepts you have presented for several years. In 2008, I sent you an email about a proposed paper, which was published by the IEEE in 2011, "A methodology to define physical constants using mathematical constants". That paper is cited in my essay, topic 1294, and I provide links in the comments. It describes a fundamentally different way to apply mathematics to physical law.
In your essay, first section, subsection 3, you state, "As Hannah and Eppley have argued [2], the attempt to do such a coupling leads either to a violation of the uncertainty principle (and thus would necessitate a change of the quantum theory) or to the possibility of superluminal signaling, which brings more problems than it solves."
Although not a part of my essay, a paper titled, "The helical structure of the electromagnetic gravity field" (
Helical Electromagnetic Gravity ) describes a simple mechanism how superluminal influence can exist. Please note that in 2004, the authors of references [6] and [7], cited in the paper, established a mathematical basis why gravity has an electromagnetic (EM) origin. All the authors of [6] and [7] needed was a description of the EM field structure that provides an attractant only force; my paper does that.
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Cristinel Stoica wrote on Sep. 2, 2012 @ 19:12 GMT
Dear Sabine,
For almost any choice, people tend to think that it should either be one, or the other. I liked your point that, in the case of "classical" vs. "quantized", the fundamental theory can be neither. I am interested myself in ways in which quantum can emerge from something else. Maybe is both "classical" and "quantized", where the quantum comes from some topological or cohomological properties or something like this. In a different direction, in my present essay,
Did God Divide by Zero?, I develop the idea that singularities exist in classical general relativity, but are nicely behaved, and as a bonus they seem to provide a way of regularization for quantum gravity.
Best wishes,
Cristi Stoica
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Lawrence B Crowell wrote on Sep. 2, 2012 @ 21:48 GMT
Your essay is interesting and food for thought. Gravitation is not given by a compact Lie group, which makes unitary principles problematic. The holographic principle makes the argument that quantum information is conserved. However, we have no general theory for how quantum information is conserved without unitarity. My
essay is an attempt to address this matter. Quantum gravity might in the end be a bit of a misnomer.
In general I agree that gravitation will not be quantized at all in the standard way.
Cheers LC
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Frank Martin DiMeglio wrote on Sep. 3, 2012 @ 02:29 GMT
Lawrence and Sabine. The force/energy of inertia and gravity has to be equivalent and balanced in order for there to be fundamental quantum gravity. (Light is known to be quantum mechanical in nature.) A smaller space must be made larger, and a larger space (on balance) must be made smaller. All relevant opposites must be balanced, included, and combined. Completeness and balance are essential in physics (and theory/ideas). Balanced and equivalent attraction and repulsion is a must too.
Also, please see the additional information in my prior/above post in this matter.
Have either of you given any thought to the ideas of feeling, touch, AND vision as they can converge (fundamentally/basically) in relation to BOTH gravity and electromagnetism? Would this not fundamentally, meaningfully, and significantly tell us more about space, force, and energy (as seen, felt, and touched) taken together? We do need to begin with basics.
True/real quantum gravity demonstrates F=ma fundamentally and fundamentally includes instantaneity as well. Inertia and gravity must be balanced and equivalent. There is no getting around this. You have to demonstrate fundamentally stabilized distance in/of space.
My essay, soon to be posted, represents a major and fundamental breakthrough in waking AND dream physics (including gravity) FUNDAMENTALLY. I would appreciate your ratings and comments on this too. Thanks.
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Thomas Howard Ray wrote on Sep. 3, 2012 @ 11:45 GMT
Bee,
As usual, you display a marvelous facility for clearly reducing a problem to its essentials. Delightful reading.
I have to point out, though "If Planck's constant is a field ..." your proposal for unification is unambiguously classical. We've always known that if Planck's constant were zero, that we live in a classical world. So if " ... quantum corrections which would normally diverge ... cleanly go to zero ..." spacetime geometry (actually, topology) is enough and we don't need quantization at all, for a fundamentally unifying theory.
I do hope you get a chance to visit my essay site.
Best,
Tom
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Bee replied on Sep. 4, 2012 @ 07:46 GMT
Hi Tom,
Thanks for the kind words. My proposal is not fundamentally classical, the quantization condition is always present. You're right, we might not need quantization for a fundamentally unifying theory. But we clearly need quantization, or something very much like it, to reproduce the world that we see. I'll check out your essay. Best,
B.
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Thomas Howard Ray replied on Sep. 8, 2012 @ 13:34 GMT
Hi Bee,
Yes, I agree that we need " ... something very much like ..." quantization to explain the observed world. I am reminded that Einstein (The Meaning of Relativity, Appendix II) allowed that a more complex field theory than general relativity may be explained by " ... (increasing) the number of dimensions of the continuum. In this case, one must explain why the continuum is *apparently* restricted to four dimensions."
In the same respect, the idea of Planck's constant as a field has to explain why action is apparently quantized.
Best,
Tom
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Rick Lockyer wrote on Sep. 3, 2012 @ 14:59 GMT
Hello Bee,
Congratulations on a wonderful essay. I could not agree more with your position on which I quote:
“This mismatch between the quantum field theories of the standard model and classical general relativity is more than an aesthetic problem: It signifies a severe shortcoming of our understanding of nature. This shortcoming has drawn a lot of attention because its resolution it is an opportunity to completely overhaul our understanding of space, time and matter.”
Perhaps the complete overhaul might require backing away from general relativity in favor of a single mathematical foundation that cleanly integrates the fundamental forces of Gravitation and Electrodynamics, with directive qualities on just what the remainder of things must look like. The quantum side of nature might reveal itself in a different guise within the very same structure.
There is a nascent concept that does just this. It is the subject matter of my essay
The Algebra of Everything. I show in this essay the relativistic characteristics of Electrodynamics are not unique to a 4D split-signature Minkowski space-time, but also within an Octonion Algebra governed 8-space. The increase in dimensions allows Electrodynamics to be only a subset of the presentation, as it must to be unified with something else. You might consider the move to Octonion Algebra as flatting out the second rank tensors employed, and instead of having only their symmetric and anti-symmetric structures, the full structure of Octonion Algebra is in play.
I would love for you to take a look and comment, for I value your opinion.
Regards,
Rick
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Daniel Sudarsky wrote on Sep. 3, 2012 @ 21:59 GMT
Dear Sabine
I found very intriguing your idea of theories that are neither quantum nor classical.
However I have a concern regarding the your proposal.
I remember from my time as a student some old discussions about the issue of constancy of $h$. At that time we were talking about a proposal made by mi advisor.
The paper ...
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Dear Sabine
I found very intriguing your idea of theories that are neither quantum nor classical.
However I have a concern regarding the your proposal.
I remember from my time as a student some old discussions about the issue of constancy of $h$. At that time we were talking about a proposal made by mi advisor.
The paper was E. Fischbach, G.L Greene, and R.J. Hughes, “New test of QM: Is Planck’s constant unique ?”, Phys. Rev. Lett. 66, 256 (1991))
One issue I recall from that discussion was the argument indicating that, as all one can measure in physics are dimessional ratios, the issue of the
variation of dimensional constants was not well defined. This is contrast with variations that could be casted in terms of variations of dimensionless ratios ( i.e. the variation of the Plank-time could be expressed as a variation of the ratio $t_{Pl}/ t_{cesium}$).
In other words, it only made sense to say some constants do vary if one specified exactly how the quantities that are used define the units we employ are supposed to behave under such change.
Consider that we take a cesium atom oscillations to define the unit of time, and define the unit of length by setting the sped of light in vacuum to be $c=1$. Furthermore imagine we define the unit of energy so that $h=1$ and use Eintein's $E=mC^2$ relation to define the unit of mass.
In that case, to say that $h$ varies would be simply meaningless.
Of course one could talk about potentially observable effects ( say a variation of the energy levels of an hydrogen atom) in terms of dimensionless constants or dimensionless ratios ( i.e. variations of $e$ or of $m_{electron}/M_{proton}$). Note however that the self consistency of the proposal would require that when we consider the Cesium atom (and in particular the transition used to define de unit of time) that the changes one is considering would lead to no modification of its frequency.
Best regards Daniel
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Bee replied on Sep. 4, 2012 @ 07:52 GMT
Hi Daniel,
Thanks for your interest. I did address this point in my paper, and also in two comments above. It is true of course that Planck's constant is dimensionful and one should not speak of it varying. Note however that I have another constant of the same dimension, which is the low-energy vev \hbar_0. You can divide the field by that constant and be left with a dimensionless quantity. Think of ASG: Strictly speaking it doesn't make sense to speak of the variation of the Planck mass either for the same reason, it's dimensionful. It does make sense however to speak of the ratio between the low energy and the high energy coupling. It's the same here. Best,
Sabine
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Daniel Sudarsky replied on Sep. 6, 2012 @ 15:11 GMT
Dear Sabine
Thanks for your reply. I am afraid however that I might not have made my point 100%
clear, as I do not think that these points were really covered in the previous discussions.
The issue is what is the meaning (or to be more precise the operational significance ) of a varying value of $h$?
Say we chose...
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Dear Sabine
Thanks for your reply. I am afraid however that I might not have made my point 100%
clear, as I do not think that these points were really covered in the previous discussions.
The issue is what is the meaning (or to be more precise the operational significance ) of a varying value of $h$?
Say we chose to base our units of time and energy one some particular aspects of atomic physics. In that case, were $h$ to change form one space-time point to another the meaning of our units would change from one space-time point to another.
Say we define a the ``second" as the N times the oscillation period connected with a certain atomic transition. Then it is clear that
if $h$ ware to change from one space-time point to another point that particular atomic transition would be modified and the meaning of what we call one ``second" would be modified as well.
Consider a simpler situation where we limit ourselves to space and time.
(Example 1) Say, again, that we define the units of time and of length in terms of the wavelength and frequency of a certain photon
( say the photon emitted in the 2P-1S transition of hydrogen as seen in the rest frame of said atom). What would be the meaning of saying the speed of light changes from space point to another?. If we measure such speed using that particular photon, it seems that, by definition, the seeped measured in those units can not change.
Another example of the difficulties I see is the following:
( Example 2) Consider a proposal where we say that the until of length changes with length. Imagine we say that a meter is only a meter for the first 150 meters but is only half a meter after that. Well one can make that meaningful by saying: Take a collection of sticks placed at the origin, and make sure each one of the sticks when placed there coincides with the unit meter we take from that place in France. Then in measuring a distance to the origin, the first 150 sticks would count as one meter, and every stick after that would count as 1/2 meter.
To make the proposal feel defined, one would have to indicate the point playing the role of the origin from where one starts counting. O.k.
but at what point is the proposal a meta definition and at what point would one be saying something about the nature of the world?
These are issues that seems inescapable when contemplating such proposals. In particular the notion of variation of $h$ with energy seems delicate in the manner similar to that of Example 2.
Therefore my point is that a proposal such as yours would need to be made much more precise in order to make it clearly meaningful.
I am not saying it is impossible, but that taking care of issues like those is, in my view, essential.
Best regards Daniel
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Saibal Mitra replied on Sep. 6, 2012 @ 17:32 GMT
Daniel,
You are making things way too complicated here by mixing the freedom to choose a unit system with the actual physics. While I can't speak for Sabine here, let me suggest to you may favorite way of dealing with these sorts of problems.
First switch to natural units c = hbar = G = 1. This defines unambiguously a consistent unit system, so no problems with that here. Unlike in, say, the SI units system you don't have any freedoms to express time, masses etc. relative to some arbitrary scales, so you now don't have compensating constants like c, hbar and G that compensate for such freedoms.
Then where hbar were to appear if you wanted it to put back, you put in your equations written in these natural units, a field phi. Also, where G would appear you put a factor phi. Since you are still working within the same natural unit system, all issues regarding measurments etc. are unambiguously defined.
In Sabine's theory, phi gets a vacuum expectation value of 1 at low energies, and at high energies the expectation value tends to zero.
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D Sudarsky replied on Sep. 6, 2012 @ 19:18 GMT
Dear Saibal
I think you are overlooking my main point:
Suppose we do as you say and choose units $\hbar =1$ and there a is a new filed $\psi$,
Now Suppose I want to measure that filed
at a certain point.What do I do?
Suppose for instance that I conclude that such modified value of the filed would modify the energy levels of an Hydrogen atom. Now suppose I want to measure that! The point is that I need something to compare with. Perhaps the energy level of a different atom. But how can I be sure that what I use that as a comparison has not change in the same fashion. In other words my w question is What is the experiment that I need to do in order to say unambiguously if $\psi$ has changed or not!
Furthermore you say this filed that replaces $\bar h$, which presumably controls the commutation relations between a particle's position and its conjugate momentum,
has a certain vev at low energies and different vev (0) at high energies. But the issue is: energies of what? of the particle involved? If so in which frame should that energy be evaluated?
Moreover could I use a high energy particle to localize beyond the uncertainty provided by the low energy vev of $\psi$ the sit ion and momentum of a low energy particle?
Would that not contradict the low energy uncertainty relationship?
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Jin He wrote on Sep. 4, 2012 @ 14:00 GMT
Unfortunately, Dr. Laurent Nottale and Dr. Jin He quantized gravity many years ago:
Quantum Gravity Based on Mach Principle and Its Solar Application
http://vixra.org/abs/1101.0076
Einstein Field Equation: the Root of All Evil? Quantum Gravity, Solar Application
http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0604084
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Saibal Mitra wrote on Sep. 4, 2012 @ 16:58 GMT
I'm wondering if there would also be effects at low energies. If you consider some amplitude of a process written as a path integral then you now divide the Lagrangian L by hbar inside the space-time integral over the fields, as hbar is now a dynamical field. Then, even though you have some potential for h that effectively contrains it to the standard value, if you consider some process with a very small amplitude (like some rare decay process), it seems to me that there could be significant contributions to this via fluctuations in the h-field. The penalty against this due to the the h-potential may then be outweighed by the L/h part making a larger contribution.
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John A. Macken wrote on Sep. 6, 2012 @ 00:01 GMT
Sabine,
Do you consider the electrostatic force exerted between two electrons to be quantized, classical or neither? The reason for asking this question is that I am going to make the argument that there is also a gravitational force between the two electrons and this gravitational force is closely related to the electrostatic force. In other words, my proposal is the gravitational force must be classified the same way as the electromagnetic force. To support this contention I offer my essay available
here. This essay offers previously unknown equations showing that these two forces are closely related. This close relationship becomes obvious when the forces between fundamental particles are expressed using the wave properties of the particles and referencing Planck force. Furthermore, these equations were predicted by a wave-based analysis of both particles and forces. In this analysis all quantized processes ultimately result from the transfer of a quantized unit of angular momentum.
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Janko Kokosar wrote on Sep. 8, 2012 @ 14:22 GMT
Dear Ms. Sabine
I do not agree with Your ideas. The key for rejection is hidden in
Duff's idea that constants h, c, and G does not exist physically. It is only possible that masses of particles increases, but You did not mentioned this possibility.
Problems with singularities can be solved on different way.
Brukner, Zeilinger, Feynman, and other claim, that finite information is hidden inside of finite volume. So also singularities do not exist.
But your article is useful as thought experiment as why G, h, and c do not exist. So variation of h does not influence on variation of G.
Regards, Janko Kokosar
My essayp.s.
I found some grammar mistakes: "violate unitary", "tought experiment", "gravitty". I hope that you will return this favour. :)
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Phil Warnell wrote on Sep. 9, 2012 @ 22:48 GMT
Hi Sabine,
It's long bothered me as to how many insist that gravity needs to be quantilized to have it consistent with the standard model, since it's apparent neither vision of reality represent being the final word on matters. With that said it's also undeniable that within their relative domains each stand as very successful theories which lend a great deal of insight into the workings of the physical world respective of their predictive power and conceptual imagery.
However it's always puzzled me that when we are talking about the very beginning of things, that is to enter terra incognita, there be reason for either conceptualization of things as thought needing to be particularly relevant. So I find your essay to resonate with this concern of mine, as it gives no special significance to either; that is other than as to ponder as to how each of these characteristics of our world has emerged as a consequence of conditions not needing to be governed by the mandates of either.
Regards,
Phil
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Peter Jackson wrote on Sep. 10, 2012 @ 14:08 GMT
Sabine
"a severe shortcoming of our understanding of nature... ...resolution it is an opportunity to completely overhaul our understanding of space, time and matter."
Beautifully and clearly written, and I very much agree, but wonder if you've overhauled understanding enough, and nothing has emerged with anything of the clarity of your writing.
I hope you may be able to read my own essay, which steps back a few more paces for greater overview and finds a pattern which does match observation, leading to a conceptual ontological construction. It has no singularities or evaporation, but Lagrangian points and recycling, via a mechanism not violating uncertainty. The model also redefines black holes as equivalent to AGN's. (elucidated in other papers).
I fear it's to unfamiliar for mainstream to recognise, but hope that, as you seem to understand the problem, you may recognise a solution. The model has kinetic logic foundations, and you need to understand each of a set of components to build the consistent model.
But anyway, your essay is worth a good score, even, or perhaps because, it clearly makes and deals with a limited point, rather the opposite of my own.
Best wishes and good luck
Peter
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Sergey G Fedosin wrote on Sep. 10, 2012 @ 14:22 GMT
Dear Sabine,
I suppose that at the atomic level of matter there is acting
strong gravitation . Then we can quantize the equations of
Lorentz-invariant theory of gravitation in the same way as Maxwell equations. At last strong gravitation may be used for modeling of strong interaction. What do you think about it?
Sergey Fedosin
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Phil Warnell wrote on Sep. 12, 2012 @ 08:17 GMT
Dear Sabine,
I find this essay to resonate for me it's long bothered me as to how many insist that gravity must be quantilized to have it consistent with the standard model, as it's apparent neither vision of reality represents being the final word on matters. With that said, as you've pointed out, it's also undeniable that within their relevant domains they each present as very successful theories, which lend a great deal of insight into the workings of the physical world respective of their predictive power and conceptual imagery. However it's always puzzled me that when we are talking about the very beginning of things, that is to enter terra incognita, there be any reason to be convinced that either conceptualization of things as thought needing to be particularly relevant. So I find your essay to resonate with this long held concern of mine, as it giving no special significance to either, that is other than to ponder how each of these characteristics of our world has emerged as a consequence of conditions not necessarily needing to be governed by the mandates of either, but rather serve as having the fundamental aspects with would allow for both.
"In relativity, movement is continuous, causally determinate and well defined, while in quantum mechanics it is discontinuous, not causally determinate and not well defined. Each theory is committed to its own notions of essentially static and fragmentary modes of existence (relativity to that of separate events, connectable by signals, and quantum mechanics to a well-defined quantum state). One thus sees that a new kind of theory is needed which drops these basic commitments and at most recovers some essential features of the older theories as abstract forms derived from a deeper reality in which what prevails in unbroken wholeness."
-David Bohm, "Wholeness and the Implicate Order", Introduction p-xviii
Regards,
Phil
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Yuri Danoyan wrote on Sep. 13, 2012 @ 02:45 GMT
Dear Sabine
What is your attitude to fundamental constants and Planck units?
My attitude is special....
See essay 1413
Do yo familiar with Frank Wilczek attitude?
See Wilczek articles
http://ctpweb.lns.mit.edu/physics_today/phystoday/Ab
s_limits388.pdf
http://ctpweb.lns.mit.edu/physics_today/physt
oday/Abs_limits393.pdf
http://ctpweb.lns.mit.edu/physics_toda
y/phystoday/Abs_limits400.pdf
Is trinity sacred?
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Hoang cao Hai wrote on Sep. 19, 2012 @ 15:02 GMT
Dear
Very interesting to see your essay.
Perhaps all of us are convinced that: the choice of yourself is right!That of course is reasonable.
So may be we should work together to let's the consider clearly defined for the basis foundations theoretical as the most challenging with intellectual of all of us.
Why we do not try to start with a real challenge is very close and are the focus of interest of the human science: it is a matter of mass and grain Higg boson of the standard model.
Knowledge and belief reasoning of you will to express an opinion on this matter:
You have think that: the Mass is the expression of the impact force to material - so no impact force, we do not feel the Higg boson - similar to the case of no weight outside the Earth's atmosphere.
Does there need to be a particle with mass for everything have volume? If so, then why the mass of everything change when moving from the Earth to the Moon? Higg boson is lighter by the Moon's gravity is weaker than of Earth?
The LHC particle accelerator used to "Smashed" until "Ejected" Higg boson, but why only when the "Smashed" can see it,and when off then not see it ?
Can be "locked" Higg particles? so when "released" if we do not force to it by any the Force, how to know that it is "out" or not?
You are should be boldly to give a definition of weight that you think is right for us to enjoy, or oppose my opinion.
Because in the process of research, the value of "failure" or "success" is the similar with science. The purpose of a correct theory be must is without any a wrong point ?
Glad to see from you comments soon,because still have too many of the same problems.
Regards !
Hải.Caohoàng of THE INCORRECT ASSUMPTIONS AND A CORRECT THEORY
August 23, 2012 - 11:51 GMT on this essay contest.
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Yuri Danoyan wrote on Sep. 21, 2012 @ 19:51 GMT
Sabine wrote: "Concretely, consider that Planck’s constant ¯h is a field whose value at high energies goes to zero.
In four space-time dimensions, Newton’s constant is G = ¯hc/m2
Pl, so if we keep mass units fix, G will go to zero together with ¯h, thereby decoupling gravity. If gravity decouples, there no reason for singularities to form. If gravity becomes classical, there’s no problem with the perturbative expansion. So this possibility seems intriguing, if somewhat vague. I will now make this idea more concrete and then explain how it addresses the previously listed problems with quantizing gravity."
Sabine, i reminding you about Wilczek doubt concerning Planck units:
"An appealing feature of atomic and strong units, in contrast to Planck
units, is that the characteristic length, time, and mass can be constructed
without taking square roots. It is disconcerting to imagine that we must extract roots in order to express the basic units in terms of fundamental
parameters. (Sophisticates will recognize that extracting roots is a
nonanalytic procedure, in the technical sense.) The fact that G, \, c can be expressed in terms of mp, \, c without extracting roots, but not vice versa, on
the face of it suggests that the strong units are more fundamental than
Planck units. (I find it remarkable that a similar conclusion is suggested
by string theory, where the closed string gravitational coupling naturally
appears as the square of the open-string gauge field coupling"
http://ctpweb.lns.mit.edu/physics_today/phystoday/A
bs_limits388.pdf
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Yuri Danoyan replied on Sep. 25, 2012 @ 03:59 GMT
Wilczek:"we must extract roots",
"can be taken outside the square roots",
"In the strong system of units no square roots
at all appear in [M], [L], [T ]."
http://arxiv.org/abs/0708.4361
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Thomas Wagner wrote on Sep. 21, 2012 @ 20:26 GMT
A most enjoyable essay. I found it delightful reading.
Sometimes we have to step back at take a more general look at things. Here is a more simplistic look (perhaps too simplistic) at the nature of gravity. I have posted it on a couple of essay pages.
Einstein, who, more than anyone else gave us our current view of the nature of gravity, said that gravity is not a force and yet in...
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A most enjoyable essay. I found it delightful reading.
Sometimes we have to step back at take a more general look at things. Here is a more simplistic look (perhaps too simplistic) at the nature of gravity. I have posted it on a couple of essay pages.
Einstein, who, more than anyone else gave us our current view of the nature of gravity, said that gravity is not a force and yet in most of contemporary physics gravity is treated as if it were. It appears that the presently held view of gravity is that it does not pull you into the chair in which you are sitting but rather, because of the curvature of space-time, it pushes you into the chair. This is a bit absurd; Gravity is either a force or it isn't, it simply can't be both.
Einstein used the example of a man jumping from a building. The man would feel no force pushing or pulling him. The only way he would know he is moving is by the motion of the building that seems to be moving up and the friction of the wind. While nobody challenges this it seems to be almost universally ignored. The example of the man falling is a good one but gravity can be proved to not be a force by use of a very simple, basic physical law.
Suppose I hold a ball of a given weight stationary in the air. The understanding of vectors tells us that a force equal to the force I am supplying must be pushing down on the ball. Vector analysis also tells us that a resulting vector will appear in a direction opposite the acute angle formed by the two vectors. The acceleration of the resultant vector, if the forces are constant, is dependent upon the sine of the acute angle formed by the two vectors. In the case of my holding the ball the angle formed by my pushing up and the alleged force of gravity pushing down is 180°. The sine of 180° is zero so the resultant vector is zero. It is important to remember that the force and acceleration of both vectors is still very real.
Newton's second law of motion says that Force is equal to Mass times Acceleration - F=ma. If I hold a ball ten times heavier the force I supply must be ten times stronger as well. In order to the stationary position of the ball I must also increase the downward force ten times. Herein lies the problem.
Acceleration is dependent on force and mass. The only way acceleration can be changed is to alter either the force or the mass. We know that acceleration in a gravitational field is a constant. On the earth it is 32 feet per second squared. If the gravity of the earth is a force and created by the curvature of space-time then this force too must be constant. The only thing that is a variable is the mass however, if we change the mass we change either the force or the acceleration. Thus either heavier objects fall more slowly than lighter objects or the acceleration changes as a result of the change in mass. We know empirically that this cannot be true as both force and acceleration are constant. Therefore gravity cannot be a force.
The ball is now ten times heavier and thus the gravitational field (if indeed that is the correct term) is ten times as strong. The curvature of the space-time created by the ball is greater and so, if gravity is a force, the ball is pulling the earth with a stronger force. Actually the acceleration of the earth toward the ball has increased and so the earth is falling toward the ball at a greater velocity. We can see this in Newton’s other formula: F = G(m1m2/r2) While this does not exactly hold in GR it is sufficient for this argument. The increase in the apparent attraction of the earth and the ten pound ball is so small as to be virtually immeasurable.
If gravity is not a force why do we feel our weight when sitting in a chair? Consider a situation where two opposing vectors are both forces, such as two cue sticks pushing on a billiard ball at two points in direct opposition.
The change in the position of the ball is zero and we can state that this is the resultant force of the two primary vectors. We have the mass of the cue ball and the force applied by the cue sticks. This means that there is in both cases an acceleration. An object can have any number of independent motions and in this case the ball is moving in two directly opposite directions but the ball is moving. The second law of motion states that force and mass will produce an acceleration. These two opposing accelerations do not 'cancel each other'. They create a vector with zero acceleration. Perhaps it may be more correct to say that they produce no vector.
Since gravity behaves much like a force, we feel our weight in a chair because we are still falling. Just because the chair stops a change in position does not mean we are not still falling. Our feeling of weight comes from momentum. A falling body has a certain momentum even if it does not actually change its position. It is this momentum we feel when sitting in a chair.
Since gravity is not in any way a force it has none of the properties of a force. It does not propagate. It would only propagate if it were a force. Contemporary physics not only thinks of gravity as a force but appears to think of it as an electromagnetic force. Many, many hours have been spent by really brilliant people trying to reconcile the 'force' of gravity with such forces as magnetism. The mass of an atom does not create the curvature of space-time any more than the nucleus creates the electron. The curvature is an integral part of the atom that was created when the atom was created. It cannot be modified nor removed.
Newton, when he worked out his gravitation theories, was concerned with action at a distance. Even though gravity is ubiquitous through the universe there is no action at a distance because there is no action. Gravity does not do anything, it simply is. It is not one of the elementary forces as it is not a force. There is no need for energy mediating bosons to mediate the force ergo, thus there is no graviton. I seriously doubt that the Large Hadron Collider will find any evidence of a massless, spin-2 boson.
It has been said that if the sun were to suddenly disappear we would not be aware of it for eight and a half minutes. That is true but has nothing to with the curvature of space-time and thus gravity. If the sun were to disappear instantly the curvature would disappear instantly as well. We would not sense this in any way, since the path of earth around the sun is a geodesic nothing would have changed; we would still be traveling in a straight line. Eight and a half minutes later everything would become instantly dark and start to quickly become very cold. That we would certainly sense and then we would know that the sun had disappeared.
The extent of a gravitational field appears to be limitless. It diminishes as described by the inverse square law but never completely disappears. Thus the entire universe is one large structure formed of a myriad of space-time curvatures.
Finally; since gravity is not a force why it is considered along with magnetism, the strong nuclear force and the weak nuclear force to be one of the primary force interactions of physical reality? Gravity is not a force, it is a condition.
If indeed gravity is not a force, are we correct is thinking that gravity functions at the quantum level? Does an elementary particle warp the space-time or is the concept of space even valid at the quantum level. It seems quite possible that gravity at quantum level may be a mathematical concept that would only be valid if gravity is a force.
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Sergey G Fedosin wrote on Oct. 2, 2012 @ 08:21 GMT
After studying about 250 essays in this contest, I realize now, how can I assess the level of each submitted work. Accordingly, I rated some essays, including yours.
Cood luck.
Sergey Fedosin
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Sergey G Fedosin wrote on Oct. 4, 2012 @ 05:33 GMT
If you do not understand why your rating dropped down. As I found ratings in the contest are calculated in the next way. Suppose your rating is
and
was the quantity of people which gave you ratings. Then you have
of points. After it anyone give you
of points so you have
of points and
is the common quantity of the people which gave you ratings. At the same time you will have
of points. From here, if you want to be R2 > R1 there must be:
or
or
In other words if you want to increase rating of anyone you must give him more points
then the participant`s rating
was at the moment you rated him. From here it is seen that in the contest are special rules for ratings. And from here there are misunderstanding of some participants what is happened with their ratings. Moreover since community ratings are hided some participants do not sure how increase ratings of others and gives them maximum 10 points. But in the case the scale from 1 to 10 of points do not work, and some essays are overestimated and some essays are drop down. In my opinion it is a bad problem with this Contest rating process. I hope the FQXI community will change the rating process.
Sergey Fedosin
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Lawrence B. Crowell wrote on Oct. 4, 2012 @ 18:14 GMT
Your essay was one of the more interesting ones. I have in recent weeks come to think there is some sort of duality between noncommutative quantum spacetime and smooth classical-like spacetime. This was further stimulated by reading Torsten Asselmeyer-Maluga's work. I gave you a high score that should jump your essay up some.
Cheers LC
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Jin He wrote on Oct. 5, 2012 @ 11:49 GMT
You mainstreamsians controle science for over 50 years. You mainstream and Hawking failed. The bad science is because of the Top-Down controle of the people like you. Why do you need money and fame from FQXI where the authors are mostly jobless, are mostly independent researchers, are mostly viXra.org authers? Do you need money and fame by controling jobless???
I want to rate you 0!
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Janko Kokosar replied on Oct. 5, 2012 @ 19:31 GMT
It is better that mainstream physicists cooperate here with amateurs and with non-mainstream researchers. But it would be better if here were larger number of arguments, much larger than numbers of rates.
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Concerned Public wrote on Oct. 6, 2012 @ 08:52 GMT
Sergey G Fedosin is bombing entrants' boards with the same "why your rating has dropped" message. They are all dated Oct. 4... same message.
WTH? I've seen one fine essay drop 89 (eighty-nine) positions, in "Community Rating" in the past 24 hours, and “Sergey’s note” came BEFORE it plummeted. Hmm.
The vote/scaling of this contest is quite nebulous.
"Hackers Rule!", I suppose!
Well??? What else is one to think? The General Public is... Watching…
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