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October 28, 2017 to January 22, 2018
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January 9, 2014 - August 31, 2014
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RECENT POSTS IN THIS TOPIC

annet both: on 11/6/12 at 10:39am UTC, wrote From the text: Even when we conform to something as “supremely” real,...

Sergey Fedosin: on 10/4/12 at 6:14am UTC, wrote If you do not understand why your rating dropped down. As I found ratings...

Hoang Hai: on 9/27/12 at 3:41am UTC, wrote Dear Joseph Maria Hoebe Very interesting with the model "Truth" of you. ...

George Rajna: on 9/16/12 at 9:01am UTC, wrote Excellent!

George Rajna: on 9/16/12 at 8:59am UTC, wrote Excellent!

Barry Kumnick: on 9/1/12 at 10:03am UTC, wrote Hi Jos, Thanks for your reply. Your essay appears to be another variant of...

Joseph Hoebe: on 8/30/12 at 9:37am UTC, wrote Hallo Barry, B: The prime truth is the totality of existence, for in the...

Barry Kumnick: on 8/30/12 at 1:09am UTC, wrote Hi Jos, Thanks for your kind feedback. I may just understand far more than...

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FQXi FORUM
January 18, 2022

CATEGORY: Questioning the Foundations Essay Contest (2012) [back]
TOPIC: The "I as Observer-Observing-Observation" Paradigm. by Joseph Maria Hoebe [refresh]

Author Joseph Maria Hoebe wrote on Aug. 24, 2012 @ 17:09 GMT
Essay Abstract

Abstract: I use geometry as symbolic means to show the nature of Truth and the role of the observer in observing Truth. By building geometric models I show the impact of choice on observations and therewith the arising of different kinds of truths, all true in their own respect, but possibly conflicting or not understandable to other observers. My approach in this essay is to show that all paradigms should start with the “I”, who, as observer, defines its observations by its way of observing. With it I propose the making of a geometrical language as a symbolic means to show and communicate the basic mechanical directions and the margins arising from them to understand and alter any kind of observation, be it scientific; every day experience; psychological; philosophical or plain fantasy. A brief introduction for the making of such a geometrical language is included. The reader is asked to understand that further elaboration on this language is beyond the scope of this essay.

Author Bio

Jos Hoebe Inventor (of Consciousness Technology Worth Spreading) Inventor / Researcher / Developer. Trainer / Therapist / Coach. Owner / CEO of Qualcon services.org. Owner/ CEO of C60 Hedron Systems BV. Stockholder of Anome BV. Professor, senior advisor R&D at Stichting CommUniversity, the online University on Hedronsciences. Senior advisor and trainer at Stichting Code 40ne. www.anome.nl www.communiversity.nu www.code40ne.com www.joshoebe.com j.hoebe@hedronsciences.nl

Wilhelmus de Wilde de Wilde wrote on Aug. 25, 2012 @ 14:33 GMT
To: Jos Hepta Pe-tro Idéon

from : the "I" part of Wilhelmus

location: alpha-P at TS

re : TRUTH

Dear Jos H, I liked your approach of the truth , however as you also mentioned any observation is limited by the senses of the observer, that is why on earth where we had only 5 senses we were so limited and were never able to find the whole truth. But ... now being here in TS we still are not able to a full perception of the whole reality of the metaverse, we may have 6 senses now, but I feel that there are other probabilities that the "I" part of myself cannot understand, as a matter of fact the colours on my Subjective Simultaneity Sphere have improved, but my "I" part still remains in the center, attempts are made to become the whole. You could read "THE CONSCIOUSNESS CONNECTION", my latest contribution to the institution on earth that contributes greatly to the search for the Truth (by the way they hacked your mails), and leave there a post, I will be on earth still for some time, so I will read it there. I liked very much your conversation , the foam of my "objective simultaneity sphere" is in fact a continuation of your dodecahedron approach leading to decoherence here on earth. Have a good time (whatever that is there) and continue thinking free.

Wilhelmus

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Author Joseph Maria Hoebe replied on Aug. 25, 2012 @ 15:13 GMT
Thanks Wilhelmus,

I can agree fully to your comment. The riddle of reality is hard to comprehend in whatever "space", environment or being we are. To me that is also the great wonder. The unknown and uncertainty is thrilling for me. On each and every corner there is something to dis-cover. And even without cover whatever is revealed or to be observed is still unknown. It gives me a great feeling of wonder and thankfulness for being. That there is überhaupt something is to me the real wonder and to be conscious of it even extra.

I read your paper and liked it very much. I rated it a 9. I will send you a private mail, because I would like to use it in some discussions and would like to have your permission.

For now, thanks for attending the congress and have a wonderful life back on Earth.

Here on ∑√∏ Serius5 "we" are still very interested what is happening there.

It seems that the consciousness you mentioned is coming into the mind of the scientists. You did a great work with your paper. It is mentioned also on one of the forums we meet us sometimes.

Warm regards,

Hepta Pê-tro Idéon

(Jos Hoebe).

Wilhelmus de Wilde de Wilde replied on Aug. 26, 2012 @ 16:34 GMT
from : alpha-P in TS

to : Hepta Pe-Tro Odéon

ref: OOO

Dear HPTI, thanks for your positive causal reaction, indeed the universe is so immense and on every Planck length there is a myrad of wonders. I was some timeless moment in alpha-P TS from where I sent you this answer. When we try to unify our causal "I" singulairity with the TS singulairity (both difficult to understand in causal spheres) we are the creators of all these wonders, so the more "I's" the more wonders, as is proved in your essay.

Hope to hear from you soon, I am back now.

Wilhelmus

wilhelmus.d@orange.fr

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Robert Fay wrote on Aug. 26, 2012 @ 01:09 GMT
"I as Observer-Observing-Observation"

Joseph is a dear friend who knows that he gets what have said to him about the mechanics of the illusion and the why behind it all >>> that of producing a slowed down time\space expression {expression = free-flowing-energy rendering itself into the state of vibration or containment} so that which is real-containment and holds the mechanical...

view entire post

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Wilhelmus de Wilde de Wilde replied on Aug. 26, 2012 @ 16:23 GMT
Thank you Robert for the links.

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Author Joseph Maria Hoebe replied on Aug. 26, 2012 @ 17:13 GMT
Thanks Robert, Always nice to hear of you, even when you are snippy.

The why, is just because it occurred that way in a Linkedin discussion in the APS group, where consciousness was mentioned and one of the contributors said to me and some others, that if we know so well about consciousness, write it down in an essay for this contest. I thought it a good idea.

It thought it a good idea also while written this was already something I would write, but I had not the appropriate audience, which is here very well.

all the best to you, and I take that beer.

Jos

Gurcharn Singh Sandhu wrote on Aug. 26, 2012 @ 17:27 GMT
Dear Jos Hoebe,

You have beautifully presented a wonderful fantasy - the observer! Well done!

As you know, with arbitrary assumptions we can build wonderful fantasies. But to come close to building a model of reality, we must use barest minimum of assumptions and such assumptions that are used must be plausible and compatible with physical reality. For this reason I think FQXi has chosen a most appropriate topic for this contest.

You are also requested to read and comment my essay titled "Wrong Assumptions of Relativity Hindering Fundamental Research in Physical Space".

Best Wishes

G S Sandhu

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Author Joseph Maria Hoebe replied on Aug. 26, 2012 @ 17:41 GMT
Thanks Gurcharn,

I hope you've rated it too.

I indeed like this contest topic. Of course we have to start with some assumptions. To my opinion the first one is: Iam. Then the rest can follow.

What triggered me in physics is that it is built on assumptions, proposition.

I had also another essay in which the basic assumption is that we can use a measure. In the Vedic there is the word Maya, which is mostly translated as Illusion, but do you know also that it means measure?

When we measure we get the illusion of reality, but the only reality we have then is that we have a measured reality, which will differ from reality without measurement. On this I developed a math of measures.

But that would be more for another contest.

warm regards,

Jos

George Rajna replied on Sep. 16, 2012 @ 08:59 GMT
Excellent!

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Ioannis Hatzidakis wrote on Aug. 27, 2012 @ 11:00 GMT
Dear Jos,

you may find some useful grains in my essay.

Best luck wherever you are. Ioannis

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Author Joseph Maria Hoebe replied on Aug. 29, 2012 @ 09:07 GMT
Thanks Ioannis, I have read it, and comment there too.

Here I add: In every of the 3 dimensions, different geometries can be made and each will having different symbolic meaning and also different different views and equations for reality.

With kind regards

Jos Hoebe

Peter Jackson wrote on Aug. 27, 2012 @ 18:22 GMT
Jos

Great essay, fun but with some very pertinent points. I picked up your link from APS, and hope you may have picked up mine earlier, or that you'll read it now.

I use something of the same structure, but discussing kinetics and the importance of better understanding the effects of interaction with non zero bodies, not the points our current maths assumes. High community mark coming to you, and I hope you like mine too. Please do comment.

Best of luck.

Peter

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Author Joseph Maria Hoebe replied on Aug. 29, 2012 @ 09:10 GMT
Thanks Peter.

I am reading your essay, but due to a lot of work I will comment to it later.

What I saw of it, I like very much.

In the tread of Ali on reality at the APS forum I will comment to some questions on it of Ali, related to that thread.

Kind regards,

Jos

Barry Kumnick wrote on Aug. 29, 2012 @ 01:48 GMT
Hi Jos,

I enjoyed your piece on truth and observation. It was insightful and entertaining.

I've attached a little critique of your essay for consideration by you and anybody else that may be interested. It also contains a brief synopsis of some of my fundamental research in this area in the hope that it may encourage others to investigate the same or similar lines of research.

Enjoy,

Barry Kumnick

attachments: A_Critique_of__I_as_Observer.pdf

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Author Joseph Maria Hoebe replied on Aug. 29, 2012 @ 09:12 GMT
Wow Barry, thanks.

I will read it later and comment here and will send that comment also to you by private mail. It will take some time, while I first have to do a lot of my "normal" work.

Bests,

Jos

jos hoebe replied on Aug. 29, 2012 @ 15:00 GMT
Barry,

Your comment is very long. It is also much. Too much to answer in full because then we get a discussion and that I want to avoid. My approach to show a different understanding and that the “Unknown” is the prime “Truth”. I also wanted to show that it could be possible to make specific geometrical representations which build themselves by consistent logic.

What you do in your comment is stating a lot of assumptions as if they are Truth. That is precisely what the problem is, I suggested. It are all assumptions, and with it you prove the Unknown quality.

Furthermore you derive these statements/assumptions from other ones. E.g. I do not agree on that Existence as truth is mathematically complete. What about Beauty and Love?

I also do not agree on the Constant of the speed of light. Just because there is no vacuum at all. Not on Earth, nor outside. Also it is to my opinion a not enough understood “Phenomenon”. I have total different ideas on it, not to discuss here as a comment. I also do not agree on your statements on Energy (Conservation of energy) that there is first x and then observer, not everything is observable, etc.

It is too much to comment on.

My essay is about something else, and it seems to me, reading your comment, that you missed the mark completely.

Nevertheless, Thanks for your brave work.

With kind regards,

Jos

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Wilhelmus de Wilde de Wilde replied on Aug. 29, 2012 @ 16:01 GMT
Hi Barry, your answer to Jos intrigues me a lot because you say :

1. "We construct our neural models of existance relative to ourselves". On this point we agree, the center of our consciousness receives the signals from our "Subjective Simultaneity Sphere, SSS", the radius of this sphere can be changed so that we can compare events from long ago or recent ones.

2. Existence is...

view entire post

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Barry Kumnick wrote on Aug. 30, 2012 @ 01:09 GMT
Hi Jos,

Thanks for your kind feedback. I may just understand far more than you think.

I agree with most of your points as far as they go from the perspective in which you presented them, but I think the perspective itself is wrong. In my opinion, you haven’t dug deep enough.

I guess I need to show you just how deep this rabbit hole goes...

Please forgive me for dumping this on you. I understand it might be a little much to take in all at once and more than a little deep. You can take it slow.

I am only offering to share this because your article shows a keen mind that may just be capable of grasping some of what I have deduced. I enjoy keen minds and yours seems like it is far ahead of most on this planet. I am just trying to nudge you towards what I see as a far deeper and potentially far more productive perspective. How far you carry that ball is completely up to you. If you don't want to discuss these issues any further, I won't post anything more.

Kind regards,

Barry

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Author Joseph Maria Hoebe replied on Aug. 30, 2012 @ 09:37 GMT
Hallo Barry,

B: The prime truth is the totality of existence, for in the final analysis, that is what is (partly)

unknown to us, and that is the only thing that exists. After all, the observer and their observations

are just another part of existence.

J: The observer observing observation is existence. That is the whole truth. Just that.

B: The whole concept...

view entire post

Barry Kumnick replied on Sep. 1, 2012 @ 10:03 GMT
Hi Jos,

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panpsychism.

Panpsychists typically attempt to argue that human consciousness could not exist unless everything in the universe had some kind of consciousness or consciousness precursor. In my experience they tend to believe...

view entire post

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George Rajna wrote on Sep. 16, 2012 @ 09:01 GMT
Excellent!

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Hoang cao Hai wrote on Sep. 27, 2012 @ 03:41 GMT
Dear Joseph Maria Hoebe

Very interesting with the model "Truth" of you.

Hopefully soon to be known about the nature of "truth".

Kind Regards !

Hải.Caohoàng of THE INCORRECT ASSUMPTIONS AND A CORRECT THEORY

August 23, 2012 - 11:51 GMT on this essay contest.

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Sergey G Fedosin wrote on Oct. 4, 2012 @ 06:14 GMT
If you do not understand why your rating dropped down. As I found ratings in the contest are calculated in the next way. Suppose your rating is
$R_1$
and
$N_1$
was the quantity of people which gave you ratings. Then you have
$S_1=R_1 N_1$
of points. After it anyone give you
$dS$
of points so you have
$S_2=S_1+ dS$
of points and
$N_2=N_1+1$
is the common quantity of the people which gave you ratings. At the same time you will have
$S_2=R_2 N_2$
of points. From here, if you want to be R2 > R1 there must be:
$S_2/ N_2>S_1/ N_1$
or
$(S_1+ dS) / (N_1+1) >S_1/ N_1$
or
$dS >S_1/ N_1 =R_1$
In other words if you want to increase rating of anyone you must give him more points
$dS$
then the participant`s rating
$R_1$
was at the moment you rated him. From here it is seen that in the contest are special rules for ratings. And from here there are misunderstanding of some participants what is happened with their ratings. Moreover since community ratings are hided some participants do not sure how increase ratings of others and gives them maximum 10 points. But in the case the scale from 1 to 10 of points do not work, and some essays are overestimated and some essays are drop down. In my opinion it is a bad problem with this Contest rating process. I hope the FQXI community will change the rating process.

Sergey Fedosin

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annet both wrote on Nov. 6, 2012 @ 10:39 GMT
From the text:

Even when we conform to something as “supremely” real, it is still Unknown plus something else, namely: “It must

be there”. Both we could consider as an actual fact. We can trust this conclusion.

---

Why should `something that is not known' be there (as a fact)? I my view there are two possibilities, both do not lead to `thruth as something that must be there'.

1 I do know that there is something I do not know. How do I know that there is something that I do not know? It has to be the case that `truth that must be there'. is an assumption, and this assumption is there before(!) I know that I don't know it. Iow, it is an assumption, not a fact. The assumption is needed to know that there is something I do not know, otherwise there is nothing at all and then it happens that

2 I do not know that I do not know. And in that case I do not know anything about `thruth that must be there' either, because I do know that.

Did not read the rest of the text yet, because I got stuck here...

best wishes

annet both netherlands

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