If you are aware of an interesting new academic paper (that has been published in a peer-reviewed journal or has appeared on the arXiv), a conference talk (at an official professional scientific meeting), an external blog post (by a professional scientist) or a news item (in the mainstream news media), which you think might make an interesting topic for an FQXi blog post, then please contact us at forums@fqxi.org with a link to the original source and a sentence about why you think that the work is worthy of discussion. Please note that we receive many such suggestions and while we endeavour to respond to them, we may not be able to reply to all suggestions.

Please also note that we do not accept unsolicited posts and we cannot review, or open new threads for, unsolicited articles or papers. Requests to review or post such materials will not be answered. If you have your own novel physics theory or model, which you would like to post for further discussion among then FQXi community, then please add them directly to the "Alternative Models of Reality" thread, or to the "Alternative Models of Cosmology" thread. Thank you.

Please also note that we do not accept unsolicited posts and we cannot review, or open new threads for, unsolicited articles or papers. Requests to review or post such materials will not be answered. If you have your own novel physics theory or model, which you would like to post for further discussion among then FQXi community, then please add them directly to the "Alternative Models of Reality" thread, or to the "Alternative Models of Cosmology" thread. Thank you.

Contests Home

Current Essay Contest

*Contest Partners: The Peter and Patricia Gruber Foundation, SubMeta, and Scientific American*

Previous Contests

**Wandering Towards a Goal**

How can mindless mathematical laws give rise to aims and intention?

*December 2, 2016 to March 3, 2017*

Contest Partner: The Peter and Patricia Gruber Fund.

read/discuss • winners

**Trick or Truth: The Mysterious Connection Between Physics and Mathematics**

*Contest Partners: Nanotronics Imaging, The Peter and Patricia Gruber Foundation, and The John Templeton Foundation*

Media Partner: Scientific American

read/discuss • winners

**How Should Humanity Steer the Future?**

*January 9, 2014 - August 31, 2014*

*Contest Partners: Jaan Tallinn, The Peter and Patricia Gruber Foundation, The John Templeton Foundation, and Scientific American*

read/discuss • winners

**It From Bit or Bit From It**

*March 25 - June 28, 2013*

*Contest Partners: The Gruber Foundation, J. Templeton Foundation, and Scientific American*

read/discuss • winners

**Questioning the Foundations**

Which of Our Basic Physical Assumptions Are Wrong?

*May 24 - August 31, 2012*

*Contest Partners: The Peter and Patricia Gruber Foundation, SubMeta, and Scientific American*

read/discuss • winners

**Is Reality Digital or Analog?**

*November 2010 - February 2011*

*Contest Partners: The Peter and Patricia Gruber Foundation and Scientific American*

read/discuss • winners

**What's Ultimately Possible in Physics?**

*May - October 2009*

*Contest Partners: Astrid and Bruce McWilliams*

read/discuss • winners

**The Nature of Time**

*August - December 2008*

read/discuss • winners

Current Essay Contest

Previous Contests

How can mindless mathematical laws give rise to aims and intention?

Contest Partner: The Peter and Patricia Gruber Fund.

read/discuss • winners

Media Partner: Scientific American

read/discuss • winners

read/discuss • winners

read/discuss • winners

Which of Our Basic Physical Assumptions Are Wrong?

read/discuss • winners

read/discuss • winners

read/discuss • winners

read/discuss • winners

Forum Home

Introduction

Terms of Use

RSS feed | RSS help

Introduction

Terms of Use

*Posts by the author are highlighted in orange; posts by FQXi Members are highlighted in blue.*

RSS feed | RSS help

RECENT POSTS IN THIS TOPIC

RECENT FORUM POSTS

**Thomas Ray**: "(reposted in correct thread) Lorraine, Nah. That's nothing like my view...."
*in* 2015 in Review: New...

**Lorraine Ford**: "Clearly “law-of-nature” relationships and associated numbers represent..."
*in* Physics of the Observer -...

**Lee Bloomquist**: "Information Channel. An example from Jon Barwise. At the workshop..."
*in* Physics of the Observer -...

**Lee Bloomquist**: "Please clarify. I just tried to put a simple model of an observer in the..."
*in* Alternative Models of...

**Lee Bloomquist**: "Footnote...for the above post, the one with the equation existence =..."
*in* Alternative Models of...

**Thomas Ray**: "In fact, symmetry is the most pervasive physical principle that exists. ..."
*in* “Spookiness”...

**Thomas Ray**: "It's easy to get wound around the axle with black hole thermodynamics,..."
*in* “Spookiness”...

**Joe Fisher**: "It seems to have escaped Wolpert’s somewhat limited attention that no two..."
*in* Inferring the Limits on...

RECENT ARTICLES

*click titles to read articles*

**The Complexity Conundrum**

Resolving the black hole firewall paradox—by calculating what a real astronaut would compute at the black hole's edge.

**Quantum Dream Time**

Defining a ‘quantum clock’ and a 'quantum ruler' could help those attempting to unify physics—and solve the mystery of vanishing time.

**Our Place in the Multiverse**

Calculating the odds that intelligent observers arise in parallel universes—and working out what they might see.

**Sounding the Drums to Listen for Gravity’s Effect on Quantum Phenomena**

A bench-top experiment could test the notion that gravity breaks delicate quantum superpositions.

**Watching the Observers**

Accounting for quantum fuzziness could help us measure space and time—and the cosmos—more accurately.

RECENT FORUM POSTS

RECENT ARTICLES

Resolving the black hole firewall paradox—by calculating what a real astronaut would compute at the black hole's edge.

Defining a ‘quantum clock’ and a 'quantum ruler' could help those attempting to unify physics—and solve the mystery of vanishing time.

Calculating the odds that intelligent observers arise in parallel universes—and working out what they might see.

A bench-top experiment could test the notion that gravity breaks delicate quantum superpositions.

Accounting for quantum fuzziness could help us measure space and time—and the cosmos—more accurately.

FQXi FORUM

February 23, 2018

CATEGORY:
Questioning the Foundations Essay Contest (2012)
[back]

TOPIC: About the Lengths of World Lines and of Time Units When Comparing Groups of Inertial Frames by Frank Ullmann [refresh]

TOPIC: About the Lengths of World Lines and of Time Units When Comparing Groups of Inertial Frames by Frank Ullmann [refresh]

We explore whether our interpretation of special relativity - according to which we consider space and time as space-time equipped with geometric properties - leads to conclusions that go beyond those drawn directly from the equations of special relativity. To do so, we develop a method that allows us to determine the ratio of the lengths of any two polygonal time-like world lines both connecting the same two events. It turns out that all such world lines have the same length, regardless of the number of time units counted along each of them, whereas at the same time the mean lengths of the time units are different if their numbers are different. Therefore, if different numbers of time units are counted, this cannot have a geometric cause.

I have studied theoretical physics at the Goethe Universität in Frankfurt. There are two questions that keep me up at night: what makes gravity so special and what is time?

Dear Frank,

Thank you for trying to accommodate Minkowski's geometry to Cartesian coordination system (CCS) that is consistently impossible. That is one of the reasons I propose a different coordination system (NCS) which has not most of CCS' disadvantages. According to this, time dilation is geometrically explicable and inertia frames - although there is no such a frame in Nature - are equivalent.

Best wishes, Ioannis

report post as inappropriate

Thank you for trying to accommodate Minkowski's geometry to Cartesian coordination system (CCS) that is consistently impossible. That is one of the reasons I propose a different coordination system (NCS) which has not most of CCS' disadvantages. According to this, time dilation is geometrically explicable and inertia frames - although there is no such a frame in Nature - are equivalent.

Best wishes, Ioannis

report post as inappropriate

Dear Ioannis,

Thank you for your comment. I am not quite sure, but I think you might misinterpret my conclusions. Provided that I did not made a mistake then I have shown that a necessary condition for it to be possible that space and time form a four-dimensional structure (called space-time) endowed with geometrical properties is not satisfied. This would mean that space-time actually do not have properties that could be called geometrical.

Kind regards, Frank

report post as inappropriate

Thank you for your comment. I am not quite sure, but I think you might misinterpret my conclusions. Provided that I did not made a mistake then I have shown that a necessary condition for it to be possible that space and time form a four-dimensional structure (called space-time) endowed with geometrical properties is not satisfied. This would mean that space-time actually do not have properties that could be called geometrical.

Kind regards, Frank

report post as inappropriate

Frank

"Now, it is important to note that we have not shown that special relativity is wrong. In fact, we have merely shown - as indicated above - that the geometric interpretation of the equations of special relativity is not possible."

Excellent. I'm in full agreement, and point out Cartesian co-ordinates exist in vector space, which is geometry, where motion is an invalid concept. I've gone on to derive an interesting alternative where each frame is a geometry in itself, with boundary conditions representing LT's as Doppler diffraction zones.

"But predictions arising from special relativity do not depend on the geometric interpretation of special relativity. Therefore, what we have shown does not change what can be predicted on the basis of special relativity."

Precisely. The model I derive from this better explains the SR postulates logically, and all via a quantum mechanism. I hope you'll read my essay and comment. (but be warned, it is densely layered!).

Best wishes

Peter

report post as inappropriate

"Now, it is important to note that we have not shown that special relativity is wrong. In fact, we have merely shown - as indicated above - that the geometric interpretation of the equations of special relativity is not possible."

Excellent. I'm in full agreement, and point out Cartesian co-ordinates exist in vector space, which is geometry, where motion is an invalid concept. I've gone on to derive an interesting alternative where each frame is a geometry in itself, with boundary conditions representing LT's as Doppler diffraction zones.

"But predictions arising from special relativity do not depend on the geometric interpretation of special relativity. Therefore, what we have shown does not change what can be predicted on the basis of special relativity."

Precisely. The model I derive from this better explains the SR postulates logically, and all via a quantum mechanism. I hope you'll read my essay and comment. (but be warned, it is densely layered!).

Best wishes

Peter

report post as inappropriate

If you do not understand why your rating dropped down. As I found ratings in the contest are calculated in the next way. Suppose your rating is and was the quantity of people which gave you ratings. Then you have of points. After it anyone give you of points so you have of points and is the common quantity of the people which gave you ratings. At the same time you will have of points. From here, if you want to be R2 > R1 there must be: or or In other words if you want to increase rating of anyone you must give him more points then the participant`s rating was at the moment you rated him. From here it is seen that in the contest are special rules for ratings. And from here there are misunderstanding of some participants what is happened with their ratings. Moreover since community ratings are hided some participants do not sure how increase ratings of others and gives them maximum 10 points. But in the case the scale from 1 to 10 of points do not work, and some essays are overestimated and some essays are drop down. In my opinion it is a bad problem with this Contest rating process. I hope the FQXI community will change the rating process.

Sergey Fedosin

report post as inappropriate

Sergey Fedosin

report post as inappropriate

Dear Frank,

I just finished reading your essay (for the first time, at least!) Here are a few questions and thoughts:

1. Just to be sure, on page 1, by “length,” do you always mean “spacetime interval with respect to the Minkowski metric?”

2. Similarly, when you write,“all world lines of this set lead from event A to event B and (secondly) the number of time units...

view entire post

I just finished reading your essay (for the first time, at least!) Here are a few questions and thoughts:

1. Just to be sure, on page 1, by “length,” do you always mean “spacetime interval with respect to the Minkowski metric?”

2. Similarly, when you write,“all world lines of this set lead from event A to event B and (secondly) the number of time units...

view entire post

report post as inappropriate

Dear Ben,

I am sorry for being late in my reply but I got knocked out by the flu for a week. You have posted same good questions (particularly by 4 and 6).

Here are my answers:

(see attachment)

Kind regards,

Frank

attachments: replies_Frank_Ulmann_FQXI.pdf

I am sorry for being late in my reply but I got knocked out by the flu for a week. You have posted same good questions (particularly by 4 and 6).

Here are my answers:

(see attachment)

Kind regards,

Frank

attachments: replies_Frank_Ulmann_FQXI.pdf

P.S. I put in a rating for you because I don't know if I'll get back to it before tomorrow... it might be nicer if we could ignore this whole aspect as authors, but I've found that people like to know. I suppose since so many people automatically down-rate to gain an advantage, every honest rating is a help. Anyway, take care,

Ben

report post as inappropriate

Ben

report post as inappropriate

Login or create account to post reply or comment.