CATEGORY:
FQXi Essay Contest - Is Reality Digital or Analog?
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TOPIC:
The Three and a Half Layers of Dynamics: Analog, Digital, Semi-Digital, Analog by Tejinder Singh
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Author Tejinder Pal Singh wrote on Feb. 2, 2011 @ 12:03 GMT
Essay AbstractQuantum theory is extremely successful in explaining most physical phenomena, and is not contradicted by any experiment. Yet, the theory has many puzzling features : the occurrence of probabilities, the unclear distinction between the microscopic and the macroscopic, the unexplained absence of superpositions in positions of macroscopic objects, the dependence of the theory on an external classical time, and the experimentally verified but peculiar `influence' outside the light-cone in EPR experiments. These puzzles point towards a conflict between quantum theory and our present understanding of spacetime structure, and suggest the existence of a deeper theory. In this essay we make the case that in the underlying theory the matter and spacetime degrees of freedom are non-commuting matrices, and yet the dynamics is analog. A digital quantum-theory like dynamics for matter as well as spacetime emerges in the statistical thermodynamic approximation to this deeper theory. When most of the matter clumps into macroscopic structures, it is shown to behave classically, and it induces classical dynamics on spacetime; this is the eventual analog limit, our macroscopic world. In between the digital layer and the uppermost analog layer is the realm of standard quantum theory - microscopic objects and their interaction with measuring apparatuses on a classical spacetime background : the semi-digital approximation. Such a multi-layered description of dynamics can explain the puzzling features of quantum theory, and is testable by ongoing laboratory experiments.
Author BioProfessor of Physics at the Tata Institute of Fundamental Research, Mumbai, India. Research Interests : Quantum Gravity, The Quantum Measurement Problem, The Origin of Dark Matter and Dark Energy, Formation of Large Scale structures in the Universe, Gravitational Collapse of Compact Objects and the Cosmic Censorship Hypothesis. Member of FQXi and Recipient of the John Templeton Foundation Grant (2011) for research on Quantum Measurement. Fourth Prize in FQXi essay competition 2009. Three time Gravity Research Foundation Essay Prize Awardee. Other interests : Teaching and Science Popularization. URL : www.tifr.res.in/~tpsingh
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John Merryman wrote on Feb. 3, 2011 @ 04:38 GMT
Tejinder,
I think a basic way to peel time out of the equation is to consider that we may be looking at it backwards. We experience it as a flow from past events to future ones, but the physical reality is that it is the changing configuration of what is that turns future potential into past circumstance. We don't travel from past to future, the future becomes the past because the configuration changes. Tomorrow becomes yesterday because the earth rotates.
This way, time is an effect of motion, similar to temperature, not an external factor which must be considered.
There can be no dimensionless point in time, as that would freeze the very motion creating it, much like trying to take a picture with the shutter speed set at zero. As with a temperature of absolute zero, it would freeze motion. Thus objects, macro as well as micro, cannot be truly separated from their motion.
So when we try measuring anything, it becomes a balance between precision and contextual inclusion. Much like taking a picture is a balance between clarity and depth.
Time is a serial measurement, while temperature is a scalar measurement. These two balance each other, just as the two sides of the brain balance each other. The left, serial processor side is essentially a clock, in that it records the cause and effect of action. While the right, parallel processor side is a thermostat, in that it measures the non-linear energies. As a physical entity, our brain proceeds from past events to future ones, while our mind, as the recording of these configuration states, is the memory of these events being created and receding into the past.
The fact though, is that it is what is physically real that is the constant and it is the configurations which are emergent, that's why it makes more sense to view the arrow of time as the future becoming the past. In this way, multiworlds isn't necessary, as it's this very collapse of probabilities which creates time. Yes, for a microsecond, the cat is both dead and alive, because the point of death is not a dimensionless point. In fact, for some, it can take quite awhile. The wave only collapses from the subjective perspective, as its energy continues in other forms.
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basudeba replied on Feb. 3, 2011 @ 13:09 GMT
Dear Sir,
We have a wrong notion about time traveling backwards. We have discussed this aspect in our essay. You are welcome to comment on it.
Regards.
basudeba
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Karl Coryat wrote on Feb. 8, 2011 @ 02:12 GMT
Dr. Singh: I am glad to see that you have discussed decoherence in your essay. Dieter Zeh has made a convincing argument that all "particle" or "quantum jump" phenomena are in fact continuous in the light of environmental decoherence. I wonder what you might think of the discussion of decoherence in
my essay. I describe how decoherence apparently only happens in an interaction between subsystems, such as an object and its environment; that closed, unpartitioned systems do not experience decoherence; but that the nature of this partitioning in the early universe is unclear, leading to a cosmological expression of the measurement problem. I propose a couple of models that may resolve this problem. I am curious why this question doesn't receive more attention, given that Penrose and others have pointed it out. Best of luck....
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Vladimir F. Tamari wrote on Feb. 9, 2011 @ 09:09 GMT
Dear Professor Tejinder,
I enjoyed reading the first part of your paper where you expressed succinctly and clearly your discomfiture concerning the fundamentals of Quantum Mechanics. I regret that the second part was too mathematically abstract for my understanding and interest.
You noted "Moreover, unlike in the case of tossing of the dice, where the probability of any one outcome can be reasoned to be 1/6, quantum theory provides no explanation for the Born rule, simply adopting it as an ad hoc postulate which agrees well with experiment."
A very specific suggestion for the physical basis of quantum probability is contained in section 2.7 (particularly Figs. 28 and 29) of my original 2005
Beautiful Universe paper on which my present fqxi paper is based. There I propose that the basis of quantum probability (and many other phenomena such as radiation in the vacuume) is in the diffusion of angular momentum in units of (h) through a crystal-like universal ether lattice of nodes. Your expert feedback is welcome on this and on any other aspects of the theory..
Kind regards, Vladimir.
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Alan Lowey wrote on Feb. 10, 2011 @ 15:27 GMT
Hi Tejinder, you seem to talk a lot of sense. I have a nagging question: why can't the Archimedes screw be the answer to solving the particle/wave duality paradox? I think it does. Am I wrong?
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Author Tejinder Pal Singh replied on Feb. 10, 2011 @ 16:33 GMT
Dear Alan,
Thank you for your kind remarks on my essay.
Could you explain how the Archimedes screw explains wave-particle duality? Then we can surely discuss it further.
I wish to take this opportunity to mention, as pointed out in my essay, that in my picture wave-particle duality is not a paradox. The basic nature of fundamental entities in quantum theory is wavelike and described by the wave-function. Only when this wave interacts with a macroscopic apparatus and gets localized [via wave-function collapse] do we attribute it a particle-like characteristic.
Best regards,
Tejinder
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Anonymous replied on Feb. 11, 2011 @ 11:12 GMT
Not only can it explain particle/wave duality but also gravity and dark energy, believe it or not. It's the mechanical nature of the helical screw which is important. The idea of the fundamental nature of reality having structure. It's this structure in a helical configuration which can cause a force of attraction if this dynamic particle interacts with another particle. If this Archimedes screw then travelled around a hypersphere, or wraparound universe, then it would emerge on the other side as a force of repulsion i.e. dark energy.
You have to physically plat with a wood screw or a bottle opener to really understand the simplicity of this idea. Many thanks for taking the time if try this. Alan
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Alan Lowey replied on Feb. 11, 2011 @ 11:17 GMT
(P.S I forgot to login the first time)
Also Tejinder, if you can lay your hands on two cork crew bottle openers, then you'll see that they can travel past on another in a helical ring-donut configuration. Two spinning helical threads could exist in a double-helix configuration, either travelling in opposite directions or the same direction i.e. like neutrons and protons/anti-protons? Do you begin to see what I'm getting at?
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Anton W.M. Biermans wrote on Feb. 14, 2011 @ 02:15 GMT
Dear Tejinder,
You write
---"the puzzling features of quantum theory"---
If a universe is to create itself out of nothing so particles have to create themselves, each other, then they are as much the source as the product of their interactions, the cause as well as the effect of each other's existence. If so, then there's nothing puzzling about quantum mechanics. For details see my essay.
Kind regards, Anton
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Juan Ramón González Álvarez wrote on Feb. 14, 2011 @ 16:28 GMT
I have been reading with pleasure your highly technical Essay and I think that may be useful to highlight some analogies and differences between our respective approaches.
As explained in my Essay, the canonical theory goes beyond less fundamental approaches as the superstring theory. This includes also the matrix formulation of M-theory (based in a Trace dynamics as that summarized in your...
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I have been reading with pleasure your highly technical Essay and I think that may be useful to highlight some analogies and differences between our respective approaches.
As explained in my
Essay, the canonical theory goes beyond less fundamental approaches as the superstring theory. This includes also the matrix formulation of M-theory (based in a Trace dynamics as that summarized in your Essay). The general state \hat{rho} of any system in canonical theory is defined on a generalized Liouville space (see pag 6 in my Essay). We can use an extension of Wigner techniques to derive an equivalent Wigner state \hat{rho}_W, but defined on a non-commutative phase space ({x},{p}), with associated N x N matrices like in Trace dynamics. However, the information contained in this non-commutative phase space is redundant and whereas the simplest dynamics (e.g. the S part of the canonical dynamics) can be adequately described by the geometrical star-products, there are difficulties to obtain the more general dynamics.
Indeed, the generator of the time translation in the canonical theory is not given by an operator but by a superoperator (e.g. the coefficients Omega are represented by superoperators in the quantum formalism associated to the post-Keizer form obtained at our Center). Those superoperators are defined in a superoperator space and are associated to (super)matrices of order N^2 x N^2. The evolution is described by an operator (matrix) Hamiltonian only as approximation in the 'pure' limit (see Box 1 in reference 8 in our Essay). From the Hamiltonian, we can obtain Lagrangians and actions using the usual techniques. That is, neither Hamiltonians nor Lagrangians and actions can describe the dynamics of the processes in the general case. Also the usual bosonic and fermionic commutators/anticommutators are valid only in the same 'pure' approximation.
Next, you introduce a statistical mechanics by coarse graining, using a maximum entropy method. There is several difficulties with this approach, which are solved in a natural way in the canonical theory. The first is that the canonical theory belongs to the modern statistical mechanics School of fine grained methods [FG], eliminating the extradynamical coarse graining considerations and their associated paradoxes. The second, is that the assumptions as your "the ensemble does not prefer any one state in the Hilbert space over the other" are derived rather than merely postulated. The third is that these assumptions work for equilibrium but not for far from equilibrium systems; therefore, we can obtain a nonequilibrium statistical mechanics of broad scope, whereas the work of Adler and others (reference 1 in your Essay) is limited to the simple case of (stable) equilibrium. The fourth, is that your work and the work of Adler and others relies on the Liouville theorem, which means that the resulting equations of motion cannot describe the evolution of the non-conserved variables, doing impossible the link with the phenomenological theory of nonlinear nonequilibrium thermodynamics. This is a well-known deficiency of the older approaches to statistical mechanics, which is solved by modern formulations of nonequilibrium statistical mechanics as that by Byung Chan Eu [Eu]. We can derive his nonequilibrium statistical mechanics as an approximation to the more deeper canonical theory.
As you correctly point, the next step in the scheme is to consider fluctuations. Again, at this point the work of Adler is based in further approximations. Effectively, he obtains a stochastic generalization of the Schrödinger equation and this generalization allows us to describe the nonlinear phenomena cannot be described by the usual Schrödinger equation, such as the collapse of wavefunctions. His work and that of others is very fascinating, because instead of the dual structure associated to the Copenhagen formulation of quantum mechanics, we have a single evolution, which gives reduction for measurements and the usual unitary evolution when the system is not measured! However, this kind of work is not fundamental. The canonical theory includes fluctuations (see Box 1 in reference 8 in our Essay) but cover a more broad spectrum. It is only when we approximate the canonical rate theory by its weak-coupling limit and take the Markovian limit that the fluctuations are Brownian. Moreover, Brownian fluctuations are related to what Nico van Kampen named "extrinsic noise", which is due to the fact that the system (the Brownian 'particle') is open. However, there is also another kind of noise, "intrinsic noise", which is related to the fact that the underlying structure of matter is discrete rather than analog. As van Kampen correctly noted, the noise observed in chemical reactions is of the intrinsic kind. It is not surprising that the canonical theory is able to describe both noises.
Then you go over discussing the role of time and you introduce two concepts of time; at the one hand, the concept of dimensional time, which, as you correctly point out, is associated to a quantum operator of time and, at the other hand, the concept of "affine parameter". This is not very different from the Stuckelberg extension of string and p-brane theory (see reference 15 in my Essay). At this point, your essay looks ambiguous for me and you refer to a reference still in preparation. You say that you introduce operators (q,t) for each particle. However, next you write that this "introduce a non-commutative Minkowski spacetime". I assume that you mean a 4N dimensional non-commutative spacetime (for N particles), which would reduces to a non-commutative Minkowski spacetime only in the one-particle case.
In the Stuckelberg extension of string and p-brane theory, the introduction of a phase space as your (q,t,p,E) yields dynamical redundancies. These are 'solved' (or at least alleviated) by working off-shell. What approach do you take in your reference 11 in preparation?
Another point that I want to comment is when you take a Block Universe view where your "affine parameter" tau is not identified with time. Here your work departs from the Stuckelberg extension of string and p-brane theory (see reference 15 in my Essay). You seem to support what Pavsic names the interpretation "(i)", whereas he prefers the "(ii)". You give none technical reason for your interpretation, whereas others (mainly Horwitz, Fanchi, and others) have given many details on why the interpretation (ii) is the correct. In the references 17 and 18 cited in my Essay I showed that the parameter tau in the Stuckleberg, Horwitz, & Piron theory reduces to Newtonian time for interacting charged particles and for massive particles under gravity respectively, whereas the concept of dimensional time associated to spacetime rigorously fails to reduce in both cases.
You argue that the "transition from the lower analog layer to the upper analog layer also helps understand the
origin of the arrow of time". However, you give no technical detail and merely state that the question of the origin of the arrow of time is related to "why is the initial entropy of the Universe so low?". This is the well-known cosmological argument, but unfortunately it fails when one considers the details. A better approach to understand the origin of the arrow of time is given by the Brussels-Austin School [IRREV]. It seems that the Brussels-Austin School last theory for LPS with Poincaré resonances can be obtained from the canonical theory for systems with bifurcations [IRREV].
[FG]
The quest for the ultimate theory of time, an introduction to irreversibility[Eu] Nonequilibrium Statistical Mechanics, Ensemble Method 1998: Kluwer Academic Publishers, Dordrecht. Eu, Byung Chan.
[IRREV]
Trajectory branching in Liouville space as the source of irreversibility
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Author Tejinder Pal Singh replied on Feb. 16, 2011 @ 15:39 GMT
Dear Juan,
Here I try to answer the questions posed by you in your post above.
The non-commutative Minkowski spacetime I talk of is defined in the technical endnotes. In this spacetime there live the `particles' [i.e. matrices], each having coordinates (q,t). I only have in mind a noncommutative generalization of ordinary mechanics, resulting here in a 4N dimensional noncommutative configuration space for N particles.
Regarding the introduction of the phase space (q,p,t,E) : The resulting dynamics is more general than quantum dynamics, as I discuss in my essay. So it is not required that one works off shell. The reduction from here to ordinary quantum theory, where time is not an operator, is discussed in the essay : the dominant part of the Universe must become classical, providing a classical time, for us to be able to formulate quantum theory in the standard way.
Regarding the Block universe argument : My reason for suggesting a Block Universe in the underlying analog dynamics is just that I do not see any other way out, when classical time has been raised to operator status. But I will see the references you mention, and try to understand what you refer to as Pavsic's interpretation (i).
Arrow of time : I would not claim that the explanation I give is the only one or the best one. But I feel [subject to the cosmological argument being given : please let me know why you say it fails] my reasoning is plausible, even without trying to build up technical detail. If the Universe begins in a single microstate of the Block Universe described by analog dynamics, the Boltzmann entropy is zero by definition.
I hope to make time to see the references on canonical theory in your essay. I appreciate your points that the canonical theory can deal with nonequilibrium situations, and with fluctuations in a manner more general than discussed in my essay.
Once again, thank you very much for your careful reading of essay, and your detailed comments, especially regarding `Stueckelberg time'.
Kind regards,
Tejinder
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Juan Ramón González Álvarez replied on Feb. 20, 2011 @ 12:36 GMT
Dear Tejinder,
Thanks by confirming my above assumption about the 4N dimensionality of the spacetime in your Essay.
When classical dimensional time is raised to dimensional time operator, the Stuckelberg-like evolution time continues labeling the evolution of the generalized quantum states, without any need to take a Block universe viewpoint. Indeed, as showed in the references cited in my Essay, the picture based in an evolution time is more fundamental.
The cosmological argument cannot explain the arrow of time because initial low entropy states lead to evolutions incompatible with the second law. In the Chapter 1 of the BAS reference that I gave to you in the forum of my
Essay, the authors show how an initial low entropy state belongs to both semigroups Lambda^{+} and Lambda^{-}, whereas only Lambda^{+} is compatible with the second law and the observed phenomena. They then choose the correct semigroup by comparison with observation. It is this selection which explains the arrow of time. Their demonstration can be extended to initial pure states with zero entropy and also to more general classes of dynamical systems.
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Georgina Parry wrote on Feb. 16, 2011 @ 06:04 GMT
Dear Tejinder,
I wanted to let you know that I have read through your essay. I have not come across this kind of multilevel consideration of reality before and so it catch my attention. Although not having a mathematical background I did also find it hard to follow. The lack of beaks in the text also made it visually daunting. It is the kind of work that I would need to tackle slowly and a little at a time. However I appreciate that this was not written for the likes of me but rather mathematically competent physicists.
I have given a lot of thought to what is meant by reality and the question of time.You did point out an unknown underlying mechanism. That is something I am addressing in my essay. I am not sure if you were saying that the multilevel analysis was a potential solution or that it could not give full answers because of the unknown foundational mechanism. As you can probably tell I couldn't follow it very well, even though I think you had something very interesting to tell us. The fault lies with my lack of necessary mathematical education, abilities and skill.
I do hope that you find lots of interested readers, who are competent in maths and can give you more constructive and positive feedback.
Wishing you good luck. Georgina.
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Author Tejinder Pal Singh replied on Feb. 16, 2011 @ 17:13 GMT
Dear Georgina,
Thank you for your very kind remarks. I too have enjoyed reading your essay.
I can try to summarize here the key points of my essay. I believe our present understanding of quantum theory is incomplete, because of the quantum measurement problem, and because of the presence of an external classical time in the theory. A *potential solution* is suggested by proposing that quantum theory is an approximation to a deeper theory. This deeper theory, motivated by the great work of Stephen Adler, is the classical mechanics of matrices [particle positions and spacetime coordinates are matrices]. this is an *analog* theory. The digital quantum theory that we know of emerges from this analog theory in the thermodynamic approximation. This emergence explains the puzzles of quantum theory.Furthermore one can one explain how our analog macroscopic world emerges from digital quantum theory. Thus one has a three layered description of dynamical laws : analog, digital, analog. The `three and a half' comes from noting that the world of our physics laboratories consists of quantum systems interacting with analog classical apparatuses in a classical spacetime.
Good luck to you too, for the contest.
Kind regards,
Tejinder
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Georgina Parry replied on Feb. 16, 2011 @ 20:37 GMT
Dear Tejinder,
Thank you for taking the time to summarize the core of the essay. It is helpful.I do agree with the first paragraph of your summary. Also that QM is part of a deeper theory. I would have it as part of a greater theory, encompassing both QM and space-time. Time being the "problem child".
I also see a 3 level reality. Foundational level unobservable objects, data transmission( One might say the raw file of photon data) and emergent space-time image reality. QM models the unobserved timeless objects. Unique input selected by type and position of detector allows space-time construction. Emergent as a temporally distorted artifact from the transmission delay of data between object and observer.I suppose that as a non physicist my explanations may appear naive. Though Einstein did say "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler".
I have said I am not competent to comprehend the work that you discuss, let alone evaluate it. So please forgive me for not doing so. What a dull world if we all thought in the same way and had identical talents and interests. It is good that you have brought it here for others to see and consider.
Once again, Good luck, Georgina.
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Eckard Blumschein wrote on Feb. 17, 2011 @ 15:15 GMT
Dear Tejinder,
While your approach is quite different from mine, and quantum theory is not my primary concern, I nonetheless appreciate your list of belonging problems.
I am not sure whether a peculiar ‘influence’ outside the light-cone has really been experimentally verified in EPR experiments. You gave no reference for your sentence: "The ‘action-at-a-distance’ in an EPR type experiment, which Einstein called spooky, has been experimentally proven to exist [however, we know it cannot be used for signalling]." If you refer to Nimtz type claims, I strongly disagree. To my knowledge there is no correct evidence for action at a distance.
I tried to explain why Planck's constant has nothing to do with the non-commutativity.
What I am tempted to ironically call the Schulman length between micro and macroworld might have a simple explanation: Quantum theory is affected by erroneous interpretation after arbitrarily choosing a complex ansatz. You may trust in my competence in this case.
What about the allegedly compelling accuracy of agreement between predicted and measured values, I see two question marks. First I recall Lighthill's theory of cochlea whose results were tweaked very close to reality, even too good as to be honest, because the passive model did not yet consider cochlear amplification. I also recall not yet understood discrepancies, in particular concerning a paper by Gompf et al. Secondly, I suspect there might be a qualitative mistake even in case of quantitative agreement. Before I abandon the causality conjecture I am ready to put any theory in question, even spacetime.
Please do not take it amiss if I consider it justified to look for possible mistakes at the most basic level, and this layer is in my understanding the fundamentals of mathematics. Do you object?
Regards,
Eckard
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Anonymous replied on Feb. 21, 2011 @ 02:42 GMT
Dear Eckard,
Thank you for your interesting remarks and your criticism is most welcome. I plan to read your essay soon and will leave my comments on your page.
By `action at a distance' I only meant the experimental verification of EPR correlations and Bell's inequalities by the experiments of Aspect and others. On this aspect, my view of quantum theory is conservative - there is no superluminal signalling.
More soon, and with best regards,
Tejinder
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Eckard Blumschein replied on Feb. 28, 2011 @ 11:53 GMT
Dear member Tejinder Singh,
You wrote: "... your criticism is most welcome. I plan to read your essay soon and will leave my comments on your page."
Regards,
Eckard
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Lawrence B. Crowell wrote on Feb. 20, 2011 @ 20:17 GMT
Your essay was thought provoking and I gave it a high score. I do take some pause with the conclusion that quantum theory is purely a statistical result. Experiments with W and GHZ states illustrate Bell inequalities for a single experiment. I will have to read this again to see how this can be reconciled accordingly.
Cheers LC
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Author Tejinder Pal Singh replied on Feb. 21, 2011 @ 02:28 GMT
Dear Lawrence,
Thank you for your kind response to my essay. I too plan to read your essay soon.
You raise an important question. Actually, here the statistical character of quantum theory is relevant only in so far as its derivation from the underlying dynamical theory of matrices is concerned. Once one has that derivation, the underlying theory could be `forgotten', in the sense that one is not examining dynamics at the level of precision of the underlying theory. The stochastic nonlinear Schrodinger equation thus derived does describe an individual system, as you rightly point out. The stochastic term drives the quantum system to a definite outcome during a measurement, but because it is a stochastic process, one cannot predict exactly which outcome it is. Only the probability of the outcome can be calculated, and this is proven to be equal to the Born probability. You might like to see the nice discussion in Chapter 6 of Adler's book [Ref. 1 in my essay].
Good luck to you in the essay contest. Cheers ...Tejinder
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Stve Dufourny replied on Mar. 1, 2011 @ 16:18 GMT
Hi to both of you,all, you are relevant.here is some ideas for fun.
The caratheodory method of axiomatization seems universal and I like it, I suppose you also, in logic the kelvin Planck satetment of the the second law is interesting also.Because all is under these universal thermodynamical laws.The specification of an intergrer is always logic respecting the momentum and the kinetic energy.It's really the base of many things our thermodynamics and this heat.The quantum statistical mechanicsis precise and the real degrees of freedom are there in a pure thermodynamical logic.A little of maxwell law of velocities and vibrations and a Boltzmann helping with the correct finite numbe, and it's very relevant.1/2mv²...1/2m alpha²..1/2m beta².....correlated with volumes.The pression and the volumes dance with the velocities of rotations orbitals and spinals and the kinetic energy.....more mvV constant, general for all physical entangled spheres and hop all our thermodynamics and all our Quantum statistical mechanics is simplified and generalized in a spherical logic as the ideal gas.Avogadro will agree no hihii, in all case if the time operator is inserted, thus the relativity can be inserted rationally respecting the entropy and the arrow of time.But the axiomatization still is essential with its limits due to the finite universal serie.That implies an intrinsic cause in the gravitational stability, thus of course not actions at distance, but simply some informations arriving in the gravity and which fuses, it's totally different than a instant action from an other point inside this Universal sphere.The thermodynamics prove that.
Best to all and good luck in the contest.
Steve
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Lawrence B Crowell replied on Mar. 7, 2011 @ 02:53 GMT
I am having to read your paper again. I forgot that I had written on your space here. I responded to your comments on my space at
http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/810
and I will try to comment further. I will have to finish reading your paper on Monday.
Cheers LC
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Sreenath B N wrote on Feb. 25, 2011 @ 16:30 GMT
Dear Dr. T P Singh,
Your essay is thought provoking,because you are trying to explain how digitality arises out of continuous (analog) nature of reality;for that you are inventing the concept of mesoscopic physics.It is a good idea. But in my essay,Iam trying to reconcile digital and analog nature of reality in a different way.Why dont you,please,go thro' my essay and express your openion on it.
Best regards and great success in the competition.
Sreenath B N.
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Cristinel Stoica wrote on Feb. 27, 2011 @ 10:21 GMT
Dear Dr. Singh,
Ingenuous your vision of a fundamental continuous layer underlying the quantum one, then the classical level, interfaced through the semi-digital layer, in the context of trace dynamics. It seems to capture a deep meaning of the quantum world and its relation with the classical level. The title is very suggestive; it also makes me thinking at the
three and a half layers of the
dynamical energy.
Best regards,
Cristi Stoica,
Infinite Resolution
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Peter Jackson wrote on Feb. 28, 2011 @ 12:58 GMT
Dear Tijender
My spirits were raised by your exceptional essay. In my view you are absolutely correct in virtually all your assumptions and conclusions (at least all those I think I understood).
I believe the concepts within our essays completely parallel each other, yet yours is a physics paper and mine is in a wholly different, naive but fully falsifiable and predictive, empirical language. I offer a link between the micro and macro space time structures, equivalent to non commuting matrices or discrete manifolds, with time emerging from it's simple dynamics. You may read my essay title as equivalent to the block universe, using a discrete field model (DFM) and well known boundary mechanism. http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/803
Duality emerges as the simple symmetry transition to implement any change to the analogue energy of motion, i.e. changing f and Lambda to preserve c and E locally.
You'll see from the thread there are a number of other very consistent essays which build to a fuller picture consistent with yours.
Our failure would prove to have been in ability of dynamic conceptualisation.
I truly hope you are able to read and understand the structure behind the model. I will be as happy with any scientific (rather than belief) based falsification as with confirmation, as I have as yet had none.
I currently have papers in preprint and under consideration further exploring important fundamental consequences. If you have time I will post links.
Very best wishes and thank you humbly in advance for your views on my essay.
Peter Jackson
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Sreenath B N wrote on Mar. 1, 2011 @ 10:31 GMT
Dear Dr.TP Singh,
Thanks for your reply and query.I have identified QG field to 'exponentially varying accelerated field' in which the gravity/acceleration varies exponentially.So it is possible for us to derive GR from QG but not vice-versa.Regarding how I have done this can be seen in my article on QG,which you find in my web-site I have mentioned in my essay("http://www.sreenath.webs.com" and click on abstract).The path described in QG field is Logarithmic (Equiangular) spiral path on a plane and conical spiral path in three dimensions.So QG field is a 'Torsion" field.When torsion vanishes QG field becomes uniform accelerated field i.e.,GR.
I have different views on QM which you see in my above article.In it,I have tried to connect the Schrodinger equation to 'how a particle gains energy in the QG field'.If you want me to send my article by e-mail to you,please,inform me and your mathematical frame work to my work I welcome most.
Best regards
Sreenath B N
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T H Ray wrote on Mar. 4, 2011 @ 16:15 GMT
Tejinder,
Masterful!
To your point of experiencing spacetime as classical, while acknowledging the infinite linear superposition of quantum states (and the challenge of computability in finite time) -- you might appreciate a less technical treatment of the same conclusions in my essay ("Can we see reality from here?")
Best,
Tom
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Peter Jackson wrote on Mar. 7, 2011 @ 11:03 GMT
Tejinda
I greatly appreciate your supportive comments on my essay and the discrete field model, (DFM). I repeat me response below;
"Thanks for your agreement and sympathy. I'm acutely aware of the need to extend it with mathematical proof to allow physicists to "feel more at home". If you feel you may be of any help in collaboration I'd be delighted. As it's a logic and empirically based 'conceptual' theory the first problem is what to calculate!"
Perhaps nature is too complex for a single human brain process to make sense of. In the Architectural profession astonishing things are only achieved by teamwork. I not only have to have specialist skills but conceptual overview, and understand and co-ordinate a wide range of brilliant specialists, with entirely different ways of looking at things, into the whole. It seems physics as a whole may benefit from more of that, being more inclusive and holistic rather than exclusive and disparate. I'd be interested in your view, generally and specifically to exploring the DFM.
Very many thanks for your time.
Peter
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Lawrence B Crowell wrote on Mar. 8, 2011 @ 00:24 GMT
I read your paper through in detail last night and started writing this. I wrote further today, so this got a bit long. I even looked at Adler huge paper, though being 175 pages in length I of course could not read the whole. The A-M matrices, traceless diagonal elements of i = sqrt{-1} and -i, forms is related to the Kahler matrix. This is a line bundle form of the symplectic matrix. To...
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I read your paper through in detail last night and started writing this. I wrote further today, so this got a bit long. I even looked at Adler huge paper, though being 175 pages in length I of course could not read the whole. The A-M matrices, traceless diagonal elements of i = sqrt{-1} and -i, forms is related to the Kahler matrix. This is a line bundle form of the symplectic matrix. To include commutator structure between position elements [q_i, q_j] = αħ, for α a constant, and similar commutators for momentum, this can be generalized by the Gelfand theorem and Connes' noncommutative geometry.
For gravity this is clearly an important aspect of quantum gravity. Of course we have a lot of funny ideas about this. In your paper you have the “digital” as a world with quantum gravity. This appears evident by just looking at the Schwarzschild metric element 1 – r_0/r, for r_0 = 2GM/c^2, the Killing vector K_t = (1/sqrt{1 – r_0/r})∂_t. This forms a natural operator for a Schrodinger type of equation Hψ = -iħK_tψ. However, the momentum operator p_r = -iħ∂_r does not commute with K_t, and there is a noncommutative geometry. Another way of looking at this is the element r_0 exhibits fluctuations so that r_0 = + δr_0, where δr_0 = f*sqrt{Għ/c^3} = f*L_p for f \in [0, 1]. So a fluctuation of mass-energy in a region of space there is then a fluctuation in the proper time ds ~ (1 - δr_0/r)dt^2, which is a noncommutative situation in energy and time. So there are curiously two different ways of looking at this.
We have two snags with our ideas of quantum gravity. One in string theory, where the action is formulated as
L = ∫d^nx sqrt{-1}(R + α’R_{abcd}R^{abcd} + O(α’^2))
Requires there to be a classical background, or R_{ab} = λg_{ab}. This background dependence is a major criticism which has been lodged at string theory. However, the LQG folks who raise this complaint have problems of their own. In the assignment of a degree of freedom with each strut in a discrete spacetime there is a vacuum E = 3kT/2 element, which when summed up results in a huge entropy to spacetime. For this reason LQG is not able to reconstruct classical spacetime. String theory on the other hand employs holographic principle which vastly reduces the number of degrees of freedom to horizons and boundaries and these problems are avoided.
The string perturbation series is also problematic. It appears almost incomputable. We may then be able to work with some finite series, as in an effective theory. The near horizon for a black hole in an AdS_n is where the spacetime becomes AdS_2xS^{n-2}. The AdS_2 has an equivalency to the CFT_1 with isometries of the SL(2,C) group. This is the elementary group which constructs the quantum SLOCC quantum bit structures equivalent to BPS black holes. The CFT_1 is the Diff(S^1) which is the Virasoro algebra, and in this case with two copies bounded on a conformal map of S^1 to a strip. This defines the Hartle-Hawking quantum states.
The Hartle-Hawking state is constructed by a map from Calabi-Yau three-fold. This constructs the states according to a type of modular form which is related to the partition of integers. This modular form in a Dirchlet L-series has the Riemann zeta function, where its zeros determine the eigenvalues.. The 3-fold in the conjugacy classes of a maximal tori on the F_4 gives the cycle [0, e^{2π/3}, e^{4π/3}], which defines the Eisenstein series E(z), E(2z) E(3z) and the partition function for the quantum states of the AdS_2 ~ CFT_1 spacetime. This is quantum gravity to one loop. This is also equivalently determined by the G_2 group, which in the E_8 is the centralizer of the F_4 group. This extends the work which I present in the paper I wrote for FQXi Building up to AdS_7 will take us up to 6 loop calculations, and extended to 11-dimensional SUGRA to 7 loops.
What comes after that? Frankly, nothing for in effect we run out of algebra. However, there is something which is going on. The hyperbolic dynamics on H_2 ~ AdS_2 is S-dual to a quartic theory of fermions. This is not my work, but was demonstrated by Zamolodchikov (among the other amazing things that guys did), and physically it means the underlying physics of strings in the AdS_2, or equivalently on the boundary as CFT_1, is that of a fermion condensate.
The high temperature domain for the string is the Hagedorn temperature. The density of states for a string with respect to modes n is
η(n) ~ exp(4πn sqrt{α’})
that defines a partition function Z =~ ∫ η(n)exp(-n/T)dn. The Temperature is computed by 1/T = ∂Z/∂n and the path integral diverges for a temperature greater than
T_H = 4π sqrt{α’}
which is the Hagedorn temperature. This is proportional to the reciprocal of the string length. The entropy of the system is the logarithm of the density of states the S ~ 1/nT_H, which in the large n limit is zero. The modes number is given by n = 1/(sqrt{d}M_s), for d the number of degrees of freedom and M_s the string mass. String theory on the AdS_2 transitions into a theory of fermions at this high energy. Strings are then similar to the topological states, such as Skyrmion states.
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Lawrence B Crowell replied on Mar. 8, 2011 @ 00:25 GMT
continued from above
If this is so then gravity is an effective theory with a classical background. The middle or semi-digital aspects of the world are a form of effective theory. If gravitation or quantum gravity is an emergent theory, we might also ask the same about quantum mechanics? This is based on some aspects of my paper, which I did not illuminate much. Lightcone structure is a...
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continued from above
If this is so then gravity is an effective theory with a classical background. The middle or semi-digital aspects of the world are a form of effective theory. If gravitation or quantum gravity is an emergent theory, we might also ask the same about quantum mechanics? This is based on some aspects of my paper, which I did not illuminate much. Lightcone structure is a projective structure in the completion of the AdS_n spacetimes by quotient geometry. The lightlike geodesics in M_n are copies of RP^1, which at a given point p define a set that is the lightcone C(p). The point p is the projective action of π(v) for v a vector in a local patch R^{n,2} and so C(p) is then π(P∩C^{n,2}), for P normal to v, and C^{n,2} the region on R^{n,2} where the interval vanishes.
The space of lightlike geodesics is a set of invariants and then due to a stabilizer on O(n,2), so the space of lightlike curves L_n is identified with the quotient O(n,2)/P, where P is a subgroup defined the quotient between a subgroup with a Zariski topology, or a Borel subgroup, and the main group G = O(n,2). This quotient G/P is a projective algebraic variety, or flag manifold and P is a parabolic subgroup. The natural embedding of a group H - -> G composed with the projective variety G - ->G/P is an isomorphism between the H and G/P. This is then a semi-direct product G = P x| H. For the G any GL(n) the parabolic group is a subgroup of upper triangular matrices. An example of such a matrix with real valued elements is the Heisenberg group of 3x3 matrices[/equation]\left(\matrix{
1 & a & b\cr
0 & 1 & c\cr
0 & 0 &1}\right)
\left(\matrix{
1 & a & b\cr
0 & I_n & c\cr
0 & 0 & 1}\right)
[equation]where for O(n,2) the Heisenberg group is H_{2n+3}. The elements a and c are then n+2 dimensional row and column vectors of O(n,2). These are Borel groups, which emerge from the quotient space AdS_n/Γ, where the discrete group Γ is a manifestation of the Calabi-Yau 3-cycle, and which as it turns out gives an integer partition for the set of quantum states in the AdS spacetime. So both spacetime and quantum structure as we know them are emergent.
If we return to our more ordinary world, where gravity is classical and for that matter flat and ignored, quantum mechanics does bring to us a series of difficulties. I tend to agree with you that interpretations of quantum mechanics do not appear effective, for they have no empirical means of falsification. The quantum world may be seen equivalently as a many worlds splitting off continually or as Bohmian be-able particles guided on some path by a pilot wave. The simple fact is that quantum physics assumes two things: The first is that a measurement apparatus is infinite, or has an infinite number of atoms or degrees of freedom, and further that an infinite number of measurements can be conducted. These two assumptions are clearly idealizations.
The difference between a superposition and entanglement is the following. We consider a two slit experiment where a photon wave function interacts with a screen. The wave vector is of the form
|ψ> = e^{ikx}|1> + e^{ik’x}|2>
as a superposition of states for the slits labeled 1 and 2. The normalization is assumed. The state vector is normalized as
= 1 = + + e^{i(k’ + k)x} + e^{-i(k’ + k)x}
The overlaps and are multiplied by the oscillatory terms which are the interference probabilities one measures on the photoplate. We now consider the classic situation where one tries to measure which slit the photon traverses. We have a device with detects the photon at one of the slit openings. We consider another superposed quantum state. This is a spin space that is
|φ> = (1/sqrt{2})(|+> + |->).
This photon quantum state becomes entangled with this spin state. So we have
|ψ,φ> = e^{ikx}|1>|+> + e^{ik’x}|2>|->
which means if the photon passes through slit number 1 the spin is + and if it passes through slit 2 the spin is in the – state. Now consider the norm of this state vector
= + + e^{i(k’ + k)x} + e^{-i(k’+k)x}.
The spin states |+> and |-> are orthogonal and thus and are zero. This means the overlap or interference terms are removed. In effect the superposition has been replaced by an entanglement.
So we may think of the these two entangled systems as that for an electron and the other for a C-60 buckyball in two different states of some sort. One of these particles is pretty clearly in the quantum domain, while the other pushes the envelope of what is quantum. However, people have performed two slit experiments with buckballs, where they have to be supercold. We do not have to cool down electrons. So we might imagine the two slit experiment with electron where one slit contains a buckyball that has some phonon state entangled with the electron being present or not. We may then think of there being an atomic force microscope which then measures the buckball and … up the scale to the Schrodinger cat. There is a process of entanglement which proceeds up the chain. The scale in length or time diminishes, or the complement in momentum and energy diminishes, as the ratio of mass or action between the system and apparatus approaches zero.
So the curious thing is that we really are operating in the quantum world all along. However, we only see one of the outcomes; we do not see the measurement apparatus in two states or the alive/dead cat. This then leads us to the emergence of the next level in the world, the classical world. While everything is ultimately quantum mechanical, “all the way down,” there is the emergence of this classical world which we observe through our senses. It is also the world which we first came to understand with the progression from Galileo and Kepler and culminating in Newton. Of course the Bohmist might object to the idea of the classical world as an illusion, for they say the quantum world is ultimately classical-like or objective in some sense of nonlocal hidden variables. In that language, the classical world is a domain where the Bohm quantum potential is zero. From a many worlds perspective the observer is eigen-branched along only one entanglement path.
So this is how I would interpret this layering of continuous and discrete structures. At the emergence of gravity this seems to connect with the semi-digital. The extremely high energy world consists of quantum states given I think by the zeros of the Riemann zeta function. However, the fields are continuous, so there is I think at this level a complementarity between the continuous and discrete. Once gravity is classical then you have a 1/2 continuum and 1/2 discrete perspective. This then leads to the classical world which appears continuous.
Cheers LC
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James Lee Hoover wrote on Mar. 11, 2011 @ 07:58 GMT
Tejinder,
My approach is that you can never fully know reality in spite of models that simulate discrete points in time, but my support for this seems meager after reading your impressive essay.
Jim Hoover
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Paul Halpern wrote on Mar. 11, 2011 @ 15:22 GMT
Dear Tejinder,
I found your essay, with its idea of multiple layers, most fascinating! I enjoyed your discussion of quantum measurement theory and the role of stochastic fluctuations.
Best wishes,
Paul
Paul Halpern,
The Discreet Charm of the Discrete
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Sreenath B N wrote on Mar. 17, 2011 @ 18:23 GMT
Dear Dr. Singh,
Congrats for being in top 5. It seems that winning prizes is easy and efforless for you because of your indepth knowledge and vast experience of the subject with which you skilfully deal.
Sincerely,
Sreenath.
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Author Tejinder Pal Singh replied on Mar. 20, 2011 @ 06:26 GMT
Thanks for your kindness Sreenath. But I am also embarrassed by what you say! We just do our bit ...
Best regards,
Tejinder
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Alan Lowey wrote on Mar. 18, 2011 @ 14:46 GMT
Dear Tejinder,
Congratulations on your dedication to the competition and your much deserved top ten placing. I have a bugging question for you, which I've also posed to all the top front runners btw:
Q: Coulomb's Law of electrostatics was modelled by Maxwell by mechanical means after his mathematical deductions as an added verification (thanks for that bit of info Edwin), which I highly admire. To me, this gives his equation some substance. I have a problem with the laws of gravity though, especially the mathematical representation that "every object attracts every other object equally in all directions." The 'fabric' of spacetime model of gravity doesn't lend itself to explain the law of electrostatics. Coulomb's law denotes two types of matter, one 'charged' positive and the opposite type 'charged' negative. An Archimedes screw model for the graviton can explain -both- the gravity law and the electrostatic law, whilst the 'fabric' of spacetime can't. Doesn't this by definition make the helical screw model better than than anything else that has been suggested for the mechanism of the gravity force?? Otherwise the unification of all the forces is an impossiblity imo. Do you have an opinion on my analysis at all?
Best wishes,
Alan
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Author Tejinder Pal Singh replied on Mar. 20, 2011 @ 06:38 GMT
Dear Alan,
Thank you for your kind remarks.
I would not rule out the possibility of unification via a generalized geometry - a noncommutative geometry for example. This has been developed beautifully by Alan Connes, though the connection with quantum theory remains to be achieved.
We talked a bit about your helical screw idea earlier, if I recall right. I do not know how this can be fitted with the existing mathematical framework in physics, nor I understand why you would like to think overwhelmingly from the viewpoint of just the screw idea alone.
Best wishes,
Tejinder
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Alan Lowey replied on Mar. 20, 2011 @ 13:16 GMT
Thanks for the reply Tejinder. I need to do more w.r.t a simulation model of the proton and neutron in action I think.
Best wishes,
Alan
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Georgina Parry wrote on Jun. 6, 2011 @ 07:43 GMT
Dear Tejinder,
Congratulations on winning a prize. I did think your multilevel consideration of reality was very interesting. Wish I could have grasped more of what you were presenting. I am glad though that the judges found what they were looking for in your essay. Well done.
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Author Tejinder Pal Singh replied on Jun. 6, 2011 @ 09:51 GMT
Thank you for your good wishes Georgina. It was a pleasure discussing with you.
Cheers,
Tejinder
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Vladimir F. Tamari wrote on Jun. 6, 2011 @ 08:48 GMT
Congratulations for your win!
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Author Tejinder Pal Singh replied on Jun. 6, 2011 @ 09:53 GMT
Many thanks Vladimir,
Best regards,
Tejinder
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Sridattadev wrote on Jun. 9, 2011 @ 19:41 GMT
Dear Tejinder,
Congratulations. Several layers of dynamics you have put forth are similar to our levels of consciousness. Sometimes we feel we are separate from the universe and at times we will realize we are one with it. Duality is on one side of the event horizon of a black hole and singularity is inside of it. So is reality, digital from one perspective and anolog from another and semi-digital-analog as well.
S=BM^2 Love,
Sridattadev.
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