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FQXi FORUM
October 16, 2017

CATEGORY: Is Reality Digital or Analog? Essay Contest (2010-2011) [back]
TOPIC: Biology Goes Digital by Karl Coryat [refresh]
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Author Karl H Coryat wrote on Dec. 17, 2010 @ 14:47 GMT
Essay Abstract

For any measurement to be made of a system undergoing unitary evolution, it must be partitioned into subsystems. Similar partitioning is also a necessary requirement for decoherence. This leads to questions about the assumed classicality of the early universe, a cosmological expression of the measurement problem. I argue that while the universe as a whole is continuous, "reality" emerges from a partitioning in which observed asymmetries in the environment are quantized by biological and technological systems. The entire observable universe may be a phenomenon unique to the techno-biological realm.

Author Bio

After majoring in Biological Science at the University of California Berkeley, and while preparing for a graduate program, an offer to interview rock stars for a music magazine lured me away from academia. I have since authored several books for musicians, including the popular "Guerrilla Home Recording." Along the way I became interested in physics.

Download Essay PDF File




Lev Goldfarb wrote on Jan. 10, 2011 @ 23:35 GMT
Dear Karl,

You conclude your essay:

"The registration of photons need not be a function of consciousness or any other anthropocentric notion. But perhaps, absent the partitioning and measuring of the world by techno-biological systems, no photon would register, anywhere."

What exactly do you mean by this?

Are there events in Nature and are they discrete (independent of the observer), or there are no DISCRETE events in Nature (and we "create" them)?

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Karl Coryat replied on Jan. 11, 2011 @ 04:12 GMT
Lev: I mean the latter (assuming that by discrete you mean discontinuous). I argue that there are no discontinuities in nature, even though discontinuities are part of our experience of reality as biological beings, at least in some sense. I apologize if that was unclear at the end.

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Lev Goldfarb replied on Jan. 11, 2011 @ 13:18 GMT
Karl, if I understood you correctly, you rely on the basic continuous formalism to claim that the Nature is continuous, and it is our measurement activities that deceive us into believing otherwise.

In this connection, what do you think about the Schrödinger's opinion on p.1 of my essay?

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Karl Coryat replied on Jan. 12, 2011 @ 00:00 GMT
Lev: Schrödinger seems to be saying that continuous descriptions are incompatible with the facts of observation. I would agree, but my essay argues that these facts have no ontology independent of the biological and technological systems doing the observing. However, it does seem that processes which yield no potential facts of observation (in the terminology of my essay, that bear no extrinsic information in relation to an observer, for example a symmetrical double slit experiment), do obey the Schrödinger equation, which of course is a continuous description.

Incidentally, I don't think your essay's formalism is incompatible with these ideas -- we do need a better language to formalize the discrete facts of observation.

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Cristinel Stoica wrote on Jan. 24, 2011 @ 15:27 GMT
Dear Karl,

I enjoyed reading your essay, in which you describe Quantum Mechanics and Decoherence in a deep and well-prepared way, and argue convincingly that biological and technological agents are performing measurements, emerging thus a digital world from a continuous wavefunction. In many points I concur with your vision - here and here is my view on Quantum Mechanics.

Best regards,

Cristi

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Karl Coryat replied on Jan. 25, 2011 @ 01:38 GMT
Cristi: Thank you for your kind comments. Happily, I am seeing a lot of crossover between many of these essays and the ideas in my humble attempt. And, nice job on the YouTube video -- as you might be able to tell, I am a fan of Dieter Zeh, and I suspect he would like it, too.

I'm currently trying to catch up on my essay reading, but I look forward to reading yours, as well as checking out the paper you linked to. Best of luck in the contest.

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Steve Dufourny wrote on Feb. 4, 2011 @ 14:27 GMT
Hello dear Karl Coryat,

The partitions of spinning spheres sing and dance,we listen them in their waves of rotations, their volumes as a superimposing of their musics.....

Beautiful essay, good luck in this contest

Best

Steve

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Karl Coryat replied on Feb. 5, 2011 @ 00:39 GMT
Thank you Steve. If your spheres are out there, that would explain the partitioning necessary for reality to emerge. Have a good day.

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Steve Dufourny replied on Feb. 5, 2011 @ 12:09 GMT
Hi dear Karl,

You are welcome.And thanks also.

Good day also.

Steve

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Member Tejinder Pal Singh wrote on Feb. 8, 2011 @ 04:56 GMT
Dear Karl,

Thank you for your remarks on my essay page, to which I try to respond here. I have enjoyed reading your lucid essay.

There are many detailed discussions of decoherence in the early universe and its role in the emergence of classicality. For instance the very nice paper by Kiefer and Polarski :

http://arxiv.org/abs/0810.0087

The role of environment in the early Universe is played by the interaction [entanglement] of a primordial fluctuation of a given wave mode with other modes.

As pointed out by Mukhanov's remarks in your essay, decoherence alone cannot solve the quantum-to-classical transition problem in the early Universe [even though decoherence is an experimentally tested fact]. It must be supplemented by the many worlds interpretation. I particularly like the article

`Why decoherence has not solved the quantum measurement problem', by Adler, at

http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0112095

Personally I hesitate to accept many-worlds, as in my view it is an experimentally unfalsifiable interpretation. But then this is a subjective opinion :-)

The question raised by you, what causes measurement in the early Universe, is definitely very interesting. In my essay I am suggesting that stochastic fluctuations causing dynamic collapse are at work in the early Universe too, because of the presence of growing primordial density fluctuations, generated perhaps during inflation.

These issues are recently being discussed also by Daniel Sudarsky and colleagues.

It seems to me that we have diametrically opposite views on quantum/classical vis a vis digital/analog. For me Schrodinger evolution in quantum theory is digital [wave function is continuous but then there are the commutation relations which make eigenvalues of observables digitized for bound systems]. And I am calling classical systems analog because the point-like structure affords a continuum in spacetime, and also because observables take continuous values (though they were digitized in the corresponding quantum set-up).

Best wishes,

Tejinder

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Georgina Woodward wrote on Feb. 8, 2011 @ 11:29 GMT
Hi Karl ,

enjoyable, easy to read and interesting. I too can see some overlap in the ideas we are talking about.I think you have addressed the essay question very clearly.

There are also some parts where we are not in agreement but I will let my own essay speak for itself rather than argue the points on your thread.

We seem to agree that the Universe that exists unobserved is most likely analogue but detection, measurement and then (whether biological or mathematical) modeling and interpretation from those inputs, produces a digital interpretation of and experience of reality.

Good luck.

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Anonymous wrote on Feb. 14, 2011 @ 03:36 GMT
Dear Karl,

You write ---"A core principle of Hugh Everett III's many-worlds interpretation is that the entire universe is a quantum system described by a "state function, " and therefore, if quantum mechanics is an accurate description of the universe, then the universe (as a closed system) evolves deterministically according to the Schrödinger equation"---

I disagree for different reasons: 'evolving deterministically' presupposes the existence of a definite starting point which (as you've read my essay, know I think it cannot have). I also object to 'deterministically' as this suggests that we live in a Laplacian universe:

"We may regard the present state of the universe as the effect of its past and the cause of its future. An intellect which at a certain moment would know all forces that set nature in motion, and all positions of all items of which nature is composed, if this intellect were also vast enough to submit these data to analysis, it would embrace in a single formula the movements of the greatest bodies of the universe and those of the tiniest atom; for such an intellect nothing would be uncertain and the future just like the past would be present before its eyes. ". Pierre Simon Laplace, A Philosophical Essay on Probabilities.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laplace#Laplace.
27s_demon 14 Feb 2011)

If a universe is to create itself out of nothing, and it finds a way to do is, then can it unlearn how to create itself and stop creating? This is the core of our present problems in physics: the assumption that though we had to admit that no point in the universe can be more special than any other, we still keep deluding ourselves that the time we live in is unique. That is: that the universe as a whole evolves, which is impossible if there's nothing outside of it with respect to which it can be in any particular state at all. If, as far as it makes sense to speak about the expansion of "the" universe, and every point is as unique as any other, as any point or particle is at the center of its own universe, and they all take part in this expansion, then there's some autonomy at every point which defies a cause coming from one neighboring point or particle to proceed unhampered to its 'intended' effect at another neighboring particle. In other words, as every particle of every link of any chain between causes and effects has some minimal autonomy as it actively takes part in the expansion, in the creation process of the universe, then "the" universe only evolves partly deterministically. As this is like being half-pregnant, it does not evolve deterministically at all: that it keeps obeying the laws that enable its creation, laws it creates itself so future developments can roughly be predicted, does not mean that everything is predestined.

Regards, Anton

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Karl Coryat replied on Feb. 16, 2011 @ 01:43 GMT
Anton -- Thank you for the comment. Please don't get me wrong; I do not believe in predestination, nor do I believe that the observed universe evolves deterministically. The key word there is "observed." We need to make a distinction between the observed universe -- everything that we can see, which includes our embedded selves -- and the greater universe, or perhaps better said the multiverse: the closed, unpartitioned whole comprising the many worlds of the MWI. Such a closed system would not have a definite starting point, but rather, many potential beginnings (as in Hawking's top-down cosmology).

My understanding of MWI is that the "bird's view," the theoretical omniscient-observer view of the entire universe, is a perspective to which we observers are not and cannot be privileged. Many of the other essays have commented on this difficulty of describing the fundamental nature of a universe in which we observers are inextricably embedded. It is the unknowable closed universe as a whole which evolves deterministically. Unobserved or isolated pockets within our observed universe, such as the superpositions in SQUID experiments or individual quanta in a symmetrical double-slit experiment, are closed systems which can be demonstrated to evolve deterministically according to the Schrödinger equation. The Everett viewpoint is merely that the closed universe as a whole behaves according to the same rules as individual isolated quanta. Forgive me if I misunderstand this premise.

Now, when the universe is partitioned into subsystems -- as ours necessarily must be, given that we are able to observe anything at all, and can distinguish among individual objects in the world -- it is no longer a closed system, and so in doing physics we are forced to describe the interaction of subsystems. The question is then, what is the origin and fundamental nature of this partitioning? That is what my essay seeks to address.

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Anton W.M. Biermans replied on Feb. 18, 2011 @ 03:40 GMT
Dear Karl,

You write

---"It is the unknowable closed universe as a whole which evolves deterministically. "---

Though all things inside of it certainly evolve with respect to each other, if the universe creates itself out of nothing, so the total of everything, including space and time remains nil, then it doesn't exist as a whole. If particles create themselves out of each...

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Anonymous wrote on Feb. 28, 2011 @ 21:40 GMT
The registration of photons need not be a function of consciousness or any other anthropocentric notion. But perhaps, absent the partitioning and measuring of the world by techno-biological systems, no photon would register, anywhere.

Karl,

Is it your contention that reality cannot exist without someone or something to detect it?

Jim Hoover

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Karl Coryat replied on Mar. 1, 2011 @ 03:27 GMT
Jim -- It is, in the sense that I am arguing that "reality" is exclusively digital, created and experienced exclusively by biological (and in some cases technological) systems. In other words, nature -- that which these systems perceive -- is analog, but reality for one of these systems consists exclusively of digital information. That is what my essay asserts.

Now if you define reality as being the same as nature, then no, I am not asserting that.

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Peter Jackson wrote on Mar. 7, 2011 @ 18:09 GMT
Karl

Thanks for a very enjoyable essay, and even the end notes. Sensible, logical and clear thinking. I hope you may be interested in mine if you have time, non technical but conceptually testing.

Best of luck

peter

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James Dunn wrote on Apr. 18, 2014 @ 21:43 GMT
Just musing:

I disagree that all physics is continuous; there is presently no indication universally of that. Though I suspect that it is true. If the systems chosen to be considered have continuous properties, but this does not mean all physics is continuous.

Consider quantum entanglement as it relates to duality. The fringe patterns appear to exist despite individual photons...

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James Dunn replied on Apr. 18, 2014 @ 21:57 GMT
How Should Humanity Steer the Future based on this article? Not with a specific narrow path based in theoretical physics. Had the proposal addressed broadly encompassing pathways that allows for current and alternate perspectives...then I think it would have substance.

This is like throwing three 12-sided dice and betting the best option comes up.

But I did like the article, and it was educational.

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Elliot Martin Pines wrote on Aug. 28, 2014 @ 06:52 GMT
From Paul Cohen's 1964 proof that Cantor's Continuum Hypothesis is undecidable, at least per the Zermelo-Fraenkel (ZF) axioms of set theory. If so, it would then seem that there should be no process that could take us from the (ideal) analog to our "present" digital reality.

Even if the ZF axioms don't apply here, still would not the analog take us back into the fundamental problems elucidated by Zeno's paradoxes?

In short, would not such an ultimate ideal analog be identical to an absolute unity that would have to be above existence as we understand it--a transcendent root rather than a part of existence itself? If so, would this correspond to the concept of Frank Tippler's Omega Point--only transcending physics (even in the model of pure information, Platonist pure mathematical) rather than being an end result of it as per Tippler's theory? [Physics of Immortality, 1994.]

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