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**Alfredo Oliveira**: *on* 3/20/17 at 12:52pm UTC, wrote Dear Donald Well, I could not agree more with you! Of course that...

**Willy K**: *on* 3/19/17 at 5:47am UTC, wrote Dear Palmer First of all, thanks for allowing the possibility that humans...

**Don Limuti**: *on* 3/18/17 at 11:13am UTC, wrote Hi Donald, Your essay is clear and takes the mysticism out of mathematics....

**Donald Palmer**: *on* 3/16/17 at 21:58pm UTC, wrote Dear Willy K, Thank you for reading my essay and for commenting on it. ...

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**Willy K**: *on* 3/14/17 at 5:54am UTC, wrote Hi Palmer I am in total agreement with you regarding the mathematical...

**Joe Fisher**: *on* 3/13/17 at 16:20pm UTC, wrote Dear Donald G Palmer, Please excuse me for I have no intention of...

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March 28, 2017

CATEGORY:
Wandering Towards a Goal Essay Contest (2016-2017)
[back]

TOPIC: INTENTIONAL ESSAY by Donald G Palmer [refresh]

TOPIC: INTENTIONAL ESSAY by Donald G Palmer [refresh]

This essay's rating: Community = 4.7; Public = 3.0

**RATE THIS ESSAY**

This essay is a candidate in FQXi's current Essay Contest,*Wandering Towards a Goal.*

If you would like to rate this essay: After logging in, you'll be able to rate this essay as well as other submissions in the current Essay Contest.

Would you like to rate this essay?

This essay is a candidate in FQXi's current Essay Contest,

If you would like to rate this essay: After logging in, you'll be able to rate this essay as well as other submissions in the current Essay Contest.

Assumptions about what is a theory and what is a mathematical model are considered related to the question “How can mindless mathematical laws give rise to aims and intentions?”. Theory cannot be reduced to a mathematical model and requires conceptualization. So aims and intensions arise from the concepts, not the mathematics. From this the question of whether we have the appropriate mathematical tools to model aims and intensions is considered.

Trained as a mathematician, Donald Palmer has followed the world of computers in his career. He received a BA in Mathematics from Earlham College, then a Masters in Mathematics from Villanova University. He ran his own computer services and software development company for 11 years, before entering the bio-pharmaceutical world, where he now works designing software. He has worked on numeric representational concepts and written a short book on modeling of scale in the physical world.

Dear Donald,

Good essay, which makes many important points.

I agree that “It would be a dangerous mistake to think the mathematical models are either the reality or, by themselves, can define reality.”, and that

“If we consider ‘random’ to mean ‘without rules or laws’, then it seems difficult to understand how directed change, with or without ‘aims’ and ‘intensions’, can occur. Some action that changes randomness into directed change (according to some rule or law) would be required, which would seem to violate the initial assumption of randomness everywhere. So the concept of ‘random’ as meaning ‘without rules or laws’ can be easily discarded. Science presumes there are rules and laws (that humans can understand) that govern the universe.”, and that

“Mathematical structures are needed for the ‘how’ of directed change as well as the ‘where’ and ‘when’, but not the ‘what’ and ‘who’ and certainly not the ‘why’ of change. The ‘what’, ‘who’ and potentially ‘why’ involve conceptualizations and theory – not mathematical laws.”, and that

“Does this inclusion of all possibilities mean we have an explanation or even a model of aims and intensions? The model purports to ‘explain’ our universe, but, as noted before, the mathematical model is not reality. If the model accurately mimics reality, then using probability we should be able to provide the specific results of one or the other situation (will the tossed coin come up ‘heads’ or ‘tails’?). However, this is precisely the results that the mathematical structure of probability cannot provide – the results of a specific situation.”

report post as inappropriate

Good essay, which makes many important points.

I agree that “It would be a dangerous mistake to think the mathematical models are either the reality or, by themselves, can define reality.”, and that

“If we consider ‘random’ to mean ‘without rules or laws’, then it seems difficult to understand how directed change, with or without ‘aims’ and ‘intensions’, can occur. Some action that changes randomness into directed change (according to some rule or law) would be required, which would seem to violate the initial assumption of randomness everywhere. So the concept of ‘random’ as meaning ‘without rules or laws’ can be easily discarded. Science presumes there are rules and laws (that humans can understand) that govern the universe.”, and that

“Mathematical structures are needed for the ‘how’ of directed change as well as the ‘where’ and ‘when’, but not the ‘what’ and ‘who’ and certainly not the ‘why’ of change. The ‘what’, ‘who’ and potentially ‘why’ involve conceptualizations and theory – not mathematical laws.”, and that

“Does this inclusion of all possibilities mean we have an explanation or even a model of aims and intensions? The model purports to ‘explain’ our universe, but, as noted before, the mathematical model is not reality. If the model accurately mimics reality, then using probability we should be able to provide the specific results of one or the other situation (will the tossed coin come up ‘heads’ or ‘tails’?). However, this is precisely the results that the mathematical structure of probability cannot provide – the results of a specific situation.”

report post as inappropriate

Thank you for reading, Lorraine

Donald,

Great essay, beautifully written and compellingly argued. It helps that I agree on every point. Would you agree my logical 'Law of the Reducing Middle' (removing the problematic 'excluded middle') so Bayesian between 2 of anything including sheep!?

I greatly appreciated reading from a trained mathematician; "The mathematics of a physical theory is an attempt to model...

view entire post

Great essay, beautifully written and compellingly argued. It helps that I agree on every point. Would you agree my logical 'Law of the Reducing Middle' (removing the problematic 'excluded middle') so Bayesian between 2 of anything including sheep!?

I greatly appreciated reading from a trained mathematician; "The mathematics of a physical theory is an attempt to model...

view entire post

report post as inappropriate

Thank you for the kind words, Peter,

I have read your essay and find it quite interesting. Only having mathematical aspects of a theory can lead to mis-understanding of what we are doing.

I agree we do need to re-consider certain assumptions underlying current physics. In particular is the assumption that we have the appropriate tools (mathematical as well as theoretic) in order to properly model reality.

I have argued, in a few places, that we need new (rather extended) mathematical tools in order to measure aspects of the universe we currently are unable to measure. In addition, we need to consider if we have a correct theoretic concept of the universe - do we really only experience three dimensions?

Let us all work toward a new understanding!

Take care,

Don

I have read your essay and find it quite interesting. Only having mathematical aspects of a theory can lead to mis-understanding of what we are doing.

I agree we do need to re-consider certain assumptions underlying current physics. In particular is the assumption that we have the appropriate tools (mathematical as well as theoretic) in order to properly model reality.

I have argued, in a few places, that we need new (rather extended) mathematical tools in order to measure aspects of the universe we currently are unable to measure. In addition, we need to consider if we have a correct theoretic concept of the universe - do we really only experience three dimensions?

Let us all work toward a new understanding!

Take care,

Don

Dear Donald,

I found your essay interesting. I have also focused in the fact that aims and intentions are not in the bare math, they arise from us when looking into that math. You have stressed the more conceputal part of this idea, I dealt with the information flow that I believe to take place in the observer's mind. I would appreciate your thoughts about it.

By the way, just before reading your essay, I read Ian Durham's - whom I do not know, and have no connection with. I just thougth it was funny, because the two of you seem to show opposite points of views, and I happened to read them consecutively. If I understood him right (you should read it yourself) he seems to argue that directed change can indeed arise from a random world - whether the same happens with free will, intentions and so forth is less clear. I am curious to know what you think about his toy universes.

Thanks for the interesting read!

inés.

report post as inappropriate

I found your essay interesting. I have also focused in the fact that aims and intentions are not in the bare math, they arise from us when looking into that math. You have stressed the more conceputal part of this idea, I dealt with the information flow that I believe to take place in the observer's mind. I would appreciate your thoughts about it.

By the way, just before reading your essay, I read Ian Durham's - whom I do not know, and have no connection with. I just thougth it was funny, because the two of you seem to show opposite points of views, and I happened to read them consecutively. If I understood him right (you should read it yourself) he seems to argue that directed change can indeed arise from a random world - whether the same happens with free will, intentions and so forth is less clear. I am curious to know what you think about his toy universes.

Thanks for the interesting read!

inés.

report post as inappropriate

Thank you for your insights, Ines

I will read the other essays and get back to you

Don

I will read the other essays and get back to you

Don

Dear Don Palmer,

Thanks for your comments and for your essay.

You begin your essay by noting the physical concepts and how they interact is at the center of the theory, not the mathematical laws.

You also note that the mathematics of the physical theory is an attempt to model physical concepts using mathematical structure. This seems in complete agreement with my contention...

view entire post

Thanks for your comments and for your essay.

You begin your essay by noting the physical concepts and how they interact is at the center of the theory, not the mathematical laws.

You also note that the mathematics of the physical theory is an attempt to model physical concepts using mathematical structure. This seems in complete agreement with my contention...

view entire post

report post as inappropriate

Edwin,

Thank you for reading my essay and your congruent thoughts regarding it.

Having read yours, I think we have a good bit in common - as you note your 'math maps projected onto physical territory' is the same as mine (using different words).

A number of physicists have commented on the need for new mathematics in order to progress physics. I will suggest that the direction of these new mathematical tools is the need to 'upgrade' our 500+ year old system of numeric representation (decimals and positional numeric cousins) in a way that expands numeric representation to complex numbers. There is a price for this change, which involves some re-routing of current paths - however the gains are many entirely new paths.

If we could put a numeric value to sqrt(-1) (or 'i'), then the 2-part character of complex values (x + iy, which is not a complex number, but the representation of a complex number) simplifies to a single value. We would not need to 'throw out' the 'imaginary' part in order to produce 'real' observable results (what does this part represent is where some new paths emerge). This could radically change how and even what we can calculate.

Note that Donald Knuth already did this more than 50 years ago, so this is not a fantasy.

Some ideas that could assist physics and mathematics expansion...

Don

Thank you for reading my essay and your congruent thoughts regarding it.

Having read yours, I think we have a good bit in common - as you note your 'math maps projected onto physical territory' is the same as mine (using different words).

A number of physicists have commented on the need for new mathematics in order to progress physics. I will suggest that the direction of these new mathematical tools is the need to 'upgrade' our 500+ year old system of numeric representation (decimals and positional numeric cousins) in a way that expands numeric representation to complex numbers. There is a price for this change, which involves some re-routing of current paths - however the gains are many entirely new paths.

If we could put a numeric value to sqrt(-1) (or 'i'), then the 2-part character of complex values (x + iy, which is not a complex number, but the representation of a complex number) simplifies to a single value. We would not need to 'throw out' the 'imaginary' part in order to produce 'real' observable results (what does this part represent is where some new paths emerge). This could radically change how and even what we can calculate.

Note that Donald Knuth already did this more than 50 years ago, so this is not a fantasy.

Some ideas that could assist physics and mathematics expansion...

Don

Dear Donald G Palmer,

Please excuse me for I have no intention of disparaging in any way any part of your essay.

I merely wish to point out that “Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.” Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955) Physicist & Nobel Laureate.

Only nature could produce a reality so simple, a single cell amoeba could deal with it.

The real Universe must consist only of one unified visible infinite physical surface occurring in one infinite dimension, that am always illuminated by infinite non-surface light.

A more detailed explanation of natural reality can be found in my essay, SCORE ONE FOR SIMPLICITY. I do hope that you will read my essay and perhaps comment on its merit.

Joe Fisher, Realist

report post as inappropriate

Please excuse me for I have no intention of disparaging in any way any part of your essay.

I merely wish to point out that “Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.” Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955) Physicist & Nobel Laureate.

Only nature could produce a reality so simple, a single cell amoeba could deal with it.

The real Universe must consist only of one unified visible infinite physical surface occurring in one infinite dimension, that am always illuminated by infinite non-surface light.

A more detailed explanation of natural reality can be found in my essay, SCORE ONE FOR SIMPLICITY. I do hope that you will read my essay and perhaps comment on its merit.

Joe Fisher, Realist

report post as inappropriate

Hi Palmer

I am in total agreement with you regarding the mathematical structures being different from physical conceptualizations. While the former can lead us astray without the guidance of the latter (monkeys on a typewriter was a great analogy), the latter on its own will not help us either (it would be a world where mathematical predictions cannot be undertaken). I also agree that the what, who and why belongs with physical conceptualization, while the other three – when, where and how belongs to mathematical domain.

It is good that you devoted your essay to make this subtle, but essential point. I had struggled with this distinction subconsciously while composing my essay, and that struggle is perhaps evident in the way the title of my essay was framed.

However, I differ with you on current mathematics being unable to support a theory dealing with ‘aims and intention’. My essay might be offering a possible glimpse of how really simple such a theory could be. The main challenge is to deal with the physical conceptualization in a way that is sensible enough.

Warm Regards, Willy

report post as inappropriate

I am in total agreement with you regarding the mathematical structures being different from physical conceptualizations. While the former can lead us astray without the guidance of the latter (monkeys on a typewriter was a great analogy), the latter on its own will not help us either (it would be a world where mathematical predictions cannot be undertaken). I also agree that the what, who and why belongs with physical conceptualization, while the other three – when, where and how belongs to mathematical domain.

It is good that you devoted your essay to make this subtle, but essential point. I had struggled with this distinction subconsciously while composing my essay, and that struggle is perhaps evident in the way the title of my essay was framed.

However, I differ with you on current mathematics being unable to support a theory dealing with ‘aims and intention’. My essay might be offering a possible glimpse of how really simple such a theory could be. The main challenge is to deal with the physical conceptualization in a way that is sensible enough.

Warm Regards, Willy

report post as inappropriate

Dear Willy K,

Thank you for reading my essay and for commenting on it.

You have a number of interesting ideas and provide some great quotes.

This appears to be me to be a model of how humans could be manifesting extrinsic intelligence, but it seems build upon a single governmental structure. How would this model the government of a singular leader (eg. a King or Emperor)?

While I grasp that you are putting forth a model, I find it difficult to understand how this model is mathematical, beyond being a set of nested squares. Typically, a mathematical model involves measurements and/or quantifiable characteristics that are related in some operational (eg. arithmetic) manner. I do not see any of these defined in your essay and so do not understand how this is a mathematical model.

I wish you well in developing your model.

Don

Thank you for reading my essay and for commenting on it.

You have a number of interesting ideas and provide some great quotes.

This appears to be me to be a model of how humans could be manifesting extrinsic intelligence, but it seems build upon a single governmental structure. How would this model the government of a singular leader (eg. a King or Emperor)?

While I grasp that you are putting forth a model, I find it difficult to understand how this model is mathematical, beyond being a set of nested squares. Typically, a mathematical model involves measurements and/or quantifiable characteristics that are related in some operational (eg. arithmetic) manner. I do not see any of these defined in your essay and so do not understand how this is a mathematical model.

I wish you well in developing your model.

Don

Dear Palmer

First of all, thanks for allowing the possibility that humans could be manifesting extrinsic intelligence. That is the real major point of my essay and I am glad you are positive there. Everything else can be improved given time.

Regarding dictatorial governments, my essay would simply note that such a structure does not qualify as an intelligent system. But that does not mean that the dictatorial system is not successful in carrying out some basic regulatory functions. As far as comparisons go, we could compare it to the difference between chimpanzee brain and human brain. I have actually already expanded my work to include this comparison (not yet published). You showed great insight in anticipating that expansion.

On the work not being a mathematical model, I actually agree! I have only claimed that it is a 'mathematical structure'; because it is clearly more than just a conceptual structure (conceptual structure would just imply human language). I did claim 'goal-free mathematics' and 'mathematical laws' because I thought they are inherent in all mathematical structures. I am not sure but you may disagree here. Regarding the modeling itself, it has got lot more ground to traverse before it can claim to be a formal mathematical model with all the definitions that are well laid out.

Thanks so much for taking the trouble to review my essay. I rate your own essay highly since it brought up those difficulties I was struggling with in such a poignant manner.

Warm Regards, Willy

report post as inappropriate

First of all, thanks for allowing the possibility that humans could be manifesting extrinsic intelligence. That is the real major point of my essay and I am glad you are positive there. Everything else can be improved given time.

Regarding dictatorial governments, my essay would simply note that such a structure does not qualify as an intelligent system. But that does not mean that the dictatorial system is not successful in carrying out some basic regulatory functions. As far as comparisons go, we could compare it to the difference between chimpanzee brain and human brain. I have actually already expanded my work to include this comparison (not yet published). You showed great insight in anticipating that expansion.

On the work not being a mathematical model, I actually agree! I have only claimed that it is a 'mathematical structure'; because it is clearly more than just a conceptual structure (conceptual structure would just imply human language). I did claim 'goal-free mathematics' and 'mathematical laws' because I thought they are inherent in all mathematical structures. I am not sure but you may disagree here. Regarding the modeling itself, it has got lot more ground to traverse before it can claim to be a formal mathematical model with all the definitions that are well laid out.

Thanks so much for taking the trouble to review my essay. I rate your own essay highly since it brought up those difficulties I was struggling with in such a poignant manner.

Warm Regards, Willy

report post as inappropriate

Nice essay Palmer,

Your ideas and thinking are excellent

Theory cannot be reduced to a mathematical model and requires conceptualization. So aims and intensions arise from the concepts, not the mathematics.

A more direct concern for understanding where ‘aims’ and ‘intensions’ come from is the assumption that the universe is basically random (defined loosely). If we...

view entire post

Your ideas and thinking are excellent

Theory cannot be reduced to a mathematical model and requires conceptualization. So aims and intensions arise from the concepts, not the mathematics.

A more direct concern for understanding where ‘aims’ and ‘intensions’ come from is the assumption that the universe is basically random (defined loosely). If we...

view entire post

report post as inappropriate

Hi Donald,

Your essay is clear and takes the mysticism out of mathematics. Very nicely done. Do look at my essay and let me know what you think.

Thanks for one of the best essays,

Don Limuti

report post as inappropriate

Your essay is clear and takes the mysticism out of mathematics. Very nicely done. Do look at my essay and let me know what you think.

Thanks for one of the best essays,

Don Limuti

report post as inappropriate

Dear Donald

Well, I could not agree more with you! Of course that mathematics is a tool, a powerful tool but just a tool. In spite of being an essential tool.

Mathematics allows an easy way to have control over phenomena. You take any set of data and it always possible to make a mathematical model that fits the data. It is like determining the polynomial that fits a set of points in...

view entire post

Well, I could not agree more with you! Of course that mathematics is a tool, a powerful tool but just a tool. In spite of being an essential tool.

Mathematics allows an easy way to have control over phenomena. You take any set of data and it always possible to make a mathematical model that fits the data. It is like determining the polynomial that fits a set of points in...

view entire post

report post as inappropriate

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