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RECENT POSTS IN THIS TOPIC

Edwin Klingman: on 3/23/17 at 3:40am UTC, wrote Dear Daniel, Your essay is quite complex. I did very much appreciate your...

Daniel Rocha: on 3/13/17 at 17:49pm UTC, wrote Dear Torsten, There was no jump in the argument. There are 3 issues here. ...

Torsten Asselmeyer-Maluga: on 3/13/17 at 16:18pm UTC, wrote Dear Daniel, as I stated above, interesting essay. For me, there wer esome...

Daniel Rocha: on 3/13/17 at 13:04pm UTC, wrote What do you mean by before and after the big bang?

Satyavarapu Gupta: on 3/13/17 at 0:08am UTC, wrote Dear Daniel de França Diniz Rocha , I am just repeating my reply here.......

Satyavarapu Gupta: on 3/12/17 at 23:40pm UTC, wrote Dear Rocha, Thank you for such nice interest and visiting my essay. I am...

Daniel Rocha: on 3/11/17 at 15:42pm UTC, wrote You got me interested! I will surely take a look!

Anonymous: on 3/11/17 at 15:40pm UTC, wrote You got me interested! I will surely take a look!


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FQXi FORUM
March 23, 2017

CATEGORY: Wandering Towards a Goal Essay Contest (2016-2017) [back]
TOPIC: Long term stability and the meaning of life by Daniel de França Diniz Rocha [refresh]
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This essay's rating: Community = 5.0; Public = 2.0


Author Daniel de França Diniz Rocha wrote on Mar. 3, 2017 @ 19:20 GMT
Essay Abstract

A new definition of life is given, which is sufficient to construct practical experiments to understand the origin of life. Stable mechanisms throughout evolution are discussed and their importance on human society are highlighted in the conclusion.

Author Bio

I have a BSc. in Physics, at the UFRJ, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. I have worked with trademarks for the last 12 years, as a civil servant, at INPI.

Download Essay PDF File




Torsten Asselmeyer-Maluga wrote on Mar. 3, 2017 @ 20:03 GMT
Dear Daniel,

interesting topic of your essay. You try to grasp a topic which seem intractable.

I will have a look into your essay soon. My essay is the usage of quantum gravitational method to get a qualitative model of our brain. Maybe interested?

All the best

Torsten

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Author Daniel de França Diniz Rocha replied on Mar. 3, 2017 @ 22:54 GMT
Sure, I am interested. I will take a look. In the meanwhile, since our last email conversation, I figured out the mathematical subjects I need, because of some curious numbers contained in some papers released last year.




Author Daniel de França Diniz Rocha wrote on Mar. 3, 2017 @ 22:47 GMT
Sure, I am interested. I will take a look. In the meanwhile, since our last email conversation, I figured out the mathematical subjects I need, because of some curious numbers contained in some papers released last year.




Author Daniel de França Diniz Rocha wrote on Mar. 3, 2017 @ 23:15 GMT
Dear Torsten,

I once thought about cognition being derived from closed loops. The reason for is since we are aware of many things, even if unconsciously, I think we are at least in very a neurotic and compulsive state of mind towards any kind of information. And, indeed, the circuitry of our brain is made of small loops, when information is kept stored, and large loops, which pass through...

view entire post





Rene Ahn wrote on Mar. 7, 2017 @ 13:55 GMT
Hi Daniel,

Just started reading your essay as promised in my own thread.

I am still thinking a bit about what you propose, not sure I completely get it.

You obviously know a lot more about chemistry than I do.

these BZ reactions are certainly interesting. What I do not quite understand though is whether there could be a mechanism that allows chemical loops like these to somehow accumulate information, so as to make some kind of progress towards, for instance, greater stability? Any thoughts?

I am looking for a kind of constructive feedback loop, I guess.

Any relationship between your ideas and the "containers first" school of thought?

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Author Daniel de França Diniz Rocha replied on Mar. 7, 2017 @ 14:23 GMT
Hi Rene! Of course, I am looking for a great constructive feedback!

Yes, there is some sort of relationship with the container first. The container is the entire primitive ocean, or better layers of the ocean with different circulation paths.

The information is merely to stay bellow a certain level or above a certain level. This is too simple, but that's the most basic information life can carry without a system specialized in carrying information, like DNA. I tried to explain in the papaer how these informations could accumulate, that is, where currents would cross, they would mixture. In this case, more layers of control could accumulate.

Note that when currents meet, there is turbulance, so, this would be the first selecting pressure life, as I defined, would suffer. The selection would be, since there is no protection barrier to protect contents, like a cell, more sturd reaction would be selected. In this sense, a more stable reaction would "survive".

So, while currents of the ocean ciculated, this more complex reaction would be selected and spread to other currents. The overall chemichal composition of the oceans would change gradually because of these. There would be inputs from impacts from asteroids, input from volcanoes and so on. But, so, these would be inputs that would disturb the life as I put it, which would force them to gradually accumulate more and more complex reactions, that would further increase the chemistry of the oceans or many of its currents.

Note that deeper in the ocean, there are currents that passes through vents. But these are very turbulent, at a time, some very mechanism would be sturd enough enter one of those and begin to use the organic reactions there.




Author Daniel de França Diniz Rocha wrote on Mar. 7, 2017 @ 14:22 GMT
Hi Rene! Of course, I am looking for a great constructive feedback!

Yes, there is some sort of relationship with the container first. The container is the entire primitive ocean, or better layers of the ocean with different circulation paths.

The information is merely to stay bellow a certain level or above a certain level. This is too simple, but that's the most basic information...

view entire post





adel sadeq wrote on Mar. 8, 2017 @ 01:12 GMT
Hi Daniel

Nice to see you at FQXI. You seem to have put a good effort into the essay so I am giving you a very good mark. My essay as you know is my old theory. I have made an excellent progress although I have not been feeling well so I have cut back on the explanation.

the numbers are very easy to check via Wolfram.

http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/2884

Adel

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Rene Ahn wrote on Mar. 8, 2017 @ 01:19 GMT
Hi Daniel,

maybe I misunderstand. But, if these reactions "spread" they do so because they have a positive feedback loop, a bit like a wildfire (forest fire) or such? And you propose a repertoire of different autocatalytic reactions with different signatures? I really find it hard to see how any coonstruction is possible without "transgenerational" memory...

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Author Daniel de França Diniz Rocha replied on Mar. 8, 2017 @ 01:42 GMT
Hi Rene,

Yes. Yes. There is no reproduction, as I tried to define life, I tried to highlight that= in the essay. It's like you say, "wildfire". But different "wildfires", which may burn on different types of tree, overlaps and may become dependent on one another or not. If they are, they "may be able" to spread to other types of trees.

I put on the technical note a type of reaction that is a mixture of two others. The different signatures, as you say, comes from different currents that input different chemicals.

This is not a memory, it is a self propagating pattern. It will only become memory, in the sense of storage of data separated from write/erase/copy, down the evolution line, when this "wildlife" reaches alkaline vents. This is where, I think, life as we know came up to be.

Life, as I defined in the beginning can be thought of the ecosystem in its entirety, where each organism, on each niche, tries to gather energy. So, the "wildfire" continues, but in much more specialized parts, like in individual animals, plants, bacteria, and so on.




Erik P Hoel wrote on Mar. 8, 2017 @ 15:44 GMT
Hey Daniel, it's Erik P Hoel ("Agent Above, Atom Below") - thanks for linking me here. You asked me to comment on notions of stability, on which I completely agree with you as you say "That life is all about control and stability, adapted to a random environment and that it tries to stay as close as possible to a predictable pattern equilibrium, even if it shows a non trivial behavior."

I'd completely agree, but add in that there can be causal stability (the stability of causal relationships) as well as what people think of as normal physical stability.

Thanks for the essay!

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Author Daniel de França Diniz Rocha replied on Mar. 8, 2017 @ 15:59 GMT
Yes, sure, there are causal relations! That's why I put arrows, to indicate the diraction of chemical reactions. Also, because also tried to highlight structures that are stable with time. I wanted to speak about the mRNA, but I also wanted to talk about evolution... So, I ended up talking about the signals that pattern most of the animals.

If you have anything more to say, please, do it! I am also here to learn and enrich my ideas with the ones of other people!



Joe Fisher replied on Mar. 9, 2017 @ 17:19 GMT
Dear Daniel de França Diniz Rocha,

Please excuse me for I have no intention of disparaging in any way any part of your essay.

I merely wish to point out that “Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.” Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955) Physicist & Nobel Laureate.

Only nature could produce a reality so simple, a single cell amoeba could deal with it.

The real Universe must consist only of one unified visible infinite physical surface occurring in one infinite dimension, that am always illuminated by infinite non-surface light.

A more detailed explanation of natural reality can be found in my essay, SCORE ONE FOR SIMPLICITY. I do hope that you will read my essay and perhaps comment on its merit.

Joe Fisher, Realist

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Author Daniel de França Diniz Rocha replied on Mar. 9, 2017 @ 17:34 GMT
Dear Joe Fisher,

“Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.” That's my intention, indeed, with the essay. In this case, I deal with the problems dealt with the cornerstones of evolution, mainly the beginning, the origin. The proposal for chemical clocks is quite complicated in itself, as you can check in the additional notes and references. All you can do is approximate set of approximate chemical equations, which describe quite well the mechanism, but secondary products might be left out. I also made some simplified arguments using arrows on section 2, in order to show how to deal with the most important operators or regulators of the reaction.

The problem it is that the usual programs are extremely complicated and do not have a realistic expectation of a path from "primitive soup" to a cell. So, as you can see in the abstract, what I propose is more in the direction of an invitation to a new experimental program.




Héctor Daniel Gianni wrote on Mar. 9, 2017 @ 19:39 GMT
Dear Daniel de Franca Diniz Rocha

I invite you and every physicist to read my work “TIME ORIGIN,DEFINITION AND EMPIRICAL MEANING FOR PHYSICISTS, Héctor Daniel Gianni ,I’m not a physicist.

How people interested in “Time” could feel about related things to the subject.

1) Intellectuals interested in Time issues usually have a nice and creative wander for the unknown.

2) They usually enjoy this wander of their searches around it.

3) For millenniums this wander has been shared by a lot of creative people around the world.

4) What if suddenly, something considered quasi impossible to be found or discovered such as “Time” definition and experimental meaning confronts them?

5) Their reaction would be like, something unbelievable,… a kind of disappointment, probably interpreted as a loss of wander…..

6) ….worst than that, if we say that what was found or discovered wasn’t a viable theory, but a proved fact.

7) Then it would become offensive to be part of the millenary problem solution, instead of being a reason for happiness and satisfaction.

8) The reader approach to the news would be paradoxically adverse.

9) Instead, I think it should be a nice welcome to discovery, to be received with opened arms and considered to be read with full attention.

11)Time “existence” is exclusive as a “measuring system”, its physical existence can’t be proved by science, as the “time system” is. Experimentally “time” is “movement”, we can prove that, showing that with clocks we measure “constant and uniform” movement and not “the so called Time”.

12)The original “time manuscript” has 23 pages, my manuscript in this contest has only 9 pages.

I share this brief with people interested in “time” and with physicists who have been in sore need of this issue for the last 50 or 60 years.

Héctor

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Author Daniel de França Diniz Rocha replied on Mar. 10, 2017 @ 04:03 GMT
I will read it, sure. But, can you give me a link to the full manuscript?




John Edward LaMuth wrote on Mar. 10, 2017 @ 03:29 GMT
Daniel

Very ambitious and insightful scope of research

kudos

John L

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Author Daniel de França Diniz Rocha replied on Mar. 10, 2017 @ 04:02 GMT
Thank you! I will try to improve my understanding of the working of my brain and read your paper and your site. The usual books I try to access seem to descriptive instead of trying any attempt of explanation. Explanations are often left to the bio mechanical and physiological parts of the organism.




Satyavarapu Naga Parameswara Gupta wrote on Mar. 11, 2017 @ 04:22 GMT
Nice essay Rocha,

Nice new definition for life you gave, I don’t know life sciences….

So, coming back to the initial premises, that the purpose of life is to propagate a chemical reaction and its aim to self regulate, notice that the absence of reproduction in the definition of life as well as the capability of reproduction. That’s because, a priori, there is nothing that stops...

view entire post


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Author Daniel de França Diniz Rocha replied on Mar. 11, 2017 @ 15:42 GMT
You got me interested! I will surely take a look!



Satyavarapu Naga Parameswara Gupta replied on Mar. 12, 2017 @ 23:40 GMT
Dear Rocha,

Thank you for such nice interest and visiting my essay. I am writing a reply now for your esteemed comments on my essay there, Please have a look...

Best Regards

=snp

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Anonymous wrote on Mar. 11, 2017 @ 15:40 GMT
You got me interested! I will surely take a look!

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Satyavarapu Naga Parameswara Gupta replied on Mar. 13, 2017 @ 00:08 GMT
Dear Daniel de França Diniz Rocha ,

I am just repeating my reply here....

…………..Reply……………….

Thank you for your valuable time and interest, we will work together no problem

…………… Your words……….

Your essay is hard to understand, but I think it is excellent.

…………..Reply……………….

Thank...

view entire post


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Author Daniel de França Diniz Rocha replied on Mar. 13, 2017 @ 13:04 GMT
What do you mean by before and after the big bang?




Torsten Asselmeyer-Maluga wrote on Mar. 13, 2017 @ 16:18 GMT
Dear Daniel,

as I stated above, interesting essay. For me, there wer esome jumps in your argumentation:

- You claimed that intention is given by the propagation of chemical clocks. Here I missed some steps to get this statement.

- Derived from this statement, that life is composded at least by a very primitive network of chemical clocks. I see that chemical clocks are needded to get a control about the chemical processes but it is not life by itself. You need structure formation driven by nonlinear interactions. (but I see your intention)

But I like some of your claims abou the connection of stability and topology or that membrans played a strong role in thze formation of life.

A good essay (which I voted highly above the average) with a lot to think about

Best

Torsten

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Author Daniel de França Diniz Rocha replied on Mar. 13, 2017 @ 17:49 GMT
Dear Torsten,

There was no jump in the argument. There are 3 issues here.

1.The conditions of the primitive Earth already had the necessary ingredients for a chemical clock. The problem is, as I posted in the abstract, what I propose is a research path. So, in a sense, the first part of the essay is a research proposal.

2.The other is a linguistic one. Intention and aim are synonyms in usual language and intentionality is a very complicated philosophical term and only vaguely linked to intentinon. So, I looked for the philology of the words and I defined in the simplest terms what aim and intention are.

3.I defined life as a radically different thing from life as we know it. In a part of the essay I, indeed, post the expression, "life as we know it". The initial structure was purely abstract, chemical pathways. But this definition of like keep existing, as in the form of the entirety of the biosphere, and all its subsystems, ecosystems, are life forms by themselves. I argue that this is a type of Gaya hypothesis.




Edwin Eugene Klingman wrote on Mar. 23, 2017 @ 03:40 GMT
Dear Daniel,

Your essay is quite complex. I did very much appreciate your review of "The eight immortals of the animal kingdom", which is as concise a summary as I have seen. It certainly is as close to 'magic' as one can imagine, and does seem to defy evolution. You said you would explain it in the next session. Was your explanation that reproduction addresses the fact that the system will accumulate malfunctions and so makes a copy before it breaks down?

I can imagine big numbers like the next guy, but it's extremely difficult for me to envision random mutation 'inventing' this complexity. The growth of an organism is as miraculous is anything I can imagine. Thanks for describing key aspects of the process.

While the extended growth of topological organisms can be (in theory) described by math, it is not at all apparent that math has much to do with the process. You then extend the growth of organisms to societies and the 'invention' of mathematics to solve the attendant social organization issues, concluding that, "at the present time, mathematics cannot be disassociated from people." I agree with this perspective.

Similarly, while one can apply the words 'aims' and 'intentions' to the process, it is difficult to describe intention to the cell-based growth of multi-cellular organisms. The control issues are complex, and the fact that the same eight genes operate across a broad range of organisms is mind blowing. As I understand it, it is largely the frequency with which the gene is expressed that differentiates the structures.

At the end you mention the "extended Gaia hypothesis". I do not know the specifics of this hypothesis, but from what little I know, it would not seem to be unrelated to the consciousness field.

Thanks again for reminding us what goes on in order that you and I might live.

My best regards,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

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