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RECENT POSTS IN THIS TOPIC

Torsten Asselmeyer-Maluga: on 3/27/17 at 21:38pm UTC, wrote Dear Willy, at first I was travelling the last three days and here is my...

Torsten Asselmeyer-Maluga: on 3/27/17 at 20:48pm UTC, wrote Dear Jonthan, at first I was travelling the last three days and here is my...

Willy K: on 3/26/17 at 7:07am UTC, wrote Hi Torsten Since you haven't yet reviewed, I thought I'll sneak in a...

Jonathan Dickau: on 3/24/17 at 21:26pm UTC, wrote I was pleased to see I'd boosted your score to par with mine.. But now I...

Jonathan Dickau: on 3/24/17 at 16:04pm UTC, wrote I wanted to cycle back and say more.. First; I love the notion that...

Jonathan Dickau: on 3/24/17 at 4:40am UTC, wrote Gee whiz... That was meant to be 'a chair and a couch.' Best, JJD

Jonathan Dickau: on 3/24/17 at 4:38am UTC, wrote This is excellent work Torsten! I have a quibble, that in human brain...

Torsten Asselmeyer-Maluga: on 3/23/17 at 22:47pm UTC, wrote Jim, thanks for reading my essay and for the comments. After the...


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FQXi FORUM
March 28, 2017

CATEGORY: Wandering Towards a Goal Essay Contest (2016-2017) [back]
TOPIC: The Fractal Nature of Consciousness and Intuition by Torsten Asselmeyer-Maluga [refresh]
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This essay's rating: Community = 4.7; Public = 5.8


Author Torsten Asselmeyer-Maluga wrote on Feb. 28, 2017 @ 20:21 GMT
Essay Abstract

In this essay I will discuss the central question: how can a large network of neurons acquire consciousness or intuition? Furthermore I will present a model for the activity inside of the neural network which based on the principles of quantum physics. This model has similar features known from the theory of random surfaces and spin networks. Here we will analyze the network by considering the interaction of neurons by feedback loops. If one takes the signal amplitudes and frequency into account where high signals with high frequency representing learned features then the signal network degenerates to a tree. But then, the set of learned information (or the sample of examples to learn the network) can be divided into a finite number of classes. Then we are able to describe the learning process itself. Furthermore we will discuss what is intuition by introducing new relations between the feedback loops. Then we will obtain a simple criteria that a network has classified the information of the learning sample: the classes forming a fractal. Finally we will end up with the statement: Mindless rules (mathematics) are able to generate mind.

Author Bio

I'm a researcher at the German Aerospace Center with widespreaded interests. My current work is in direction of quantum gravity and cosmology. There, I used mathematical methods from topology to understand quantum gravity. In particular, exotic smoothness structures of the spacetime is my main research topic.

Download Essay PDF File




John C Hodge wrote on Mar. 1, 2017 @ 17:29 GMT
You are onto something. Perhaps a link to the LaMuth essay with levels to pass through.

Hodge

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Author Torsten Asselmeyer-Maluga replied on Mar. 3, 2017 @ 19:56 GMT
I will have a look into this essay soon.

Torsten




Steve Dufourny wrote on Mar. 1, 2017 @ 22:17 GMT
Hi Mr Maluga,

Happy to see this fractal, I consider the central sphere the singularity for all serie of uniqueness, a finte serie.I consider the central sphere like the biggest volume and I believe that the primes has something to do.The relevance is that space disappears due to this universal serie of spherical volumes.I consider in my theory of spherisation with quant and cosmol 3D sphères Inside the universal sphere that all singularitites ,quant and cosm is Under an universal fractal considering even the gravitation and the quantum gravitation.The space does not exist, only matter and energy exists.Here is my equation E=m(b)c²+m(nb)l² about quantum gravitationa and cold dark matter produced by BHs.Don't hesistate to ask détails

Regards and good luck

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Author Torsten Asselmeyer-Maluga replied on Mar. 3, 2017 @ 19:55 GMT
Dear Steve,

I have to dig deeper in your theory but using fractals is maybe a good beginning. More later,

Best wishes

Torsten




Satyavarapu Naga Parameswara Gupta wrote on Mar. 3, 2017 @ 15:19 GMT
Dear Asselmeyer,

Thank you for the nice essay on neural networks of brain.

Your narration is excellent, You described a qualitative model for neural networks like the human brain which is based on interactions between neurons along loops, the feedback loops.’

You are a cosmologist working on quantum gravity etc…. I request you to have a look on my essay...

view entire post


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Author Torsten Asselmeyer-Maluga replied on Mar. 3, 2017 @ 19:51 GMT
Dear Mr. Gupta,

now I will start reading other essays and of course I will comment on your ideas soon. Thanks for your words about my essay and for the effort to read it.

Best Torsten




Joe Fisher wrote on Mar. 3, 2017 @ 16:49 GMT
Dear Torsten Asselmeyer-Maluga,

Please excuse me for I have no intention of disparaging in any way any part of your essay.

I merely wish to point out that “Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.” Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955) Physicist & Nobel Laureate.

Only nature could produce a reality so simple, a single cell amoeba could deal with it.

The real Universe must consist only of one unified visible infinite physical surface occurring in one infinite dimension, that am always illuminated by infinite non-surface light.

A more detailed explanation of natural reality can be found in my essay, SCORE ONE FOR SIMPLICITY. I do hope that you will read my essay and perhaps comment on its merit.

Joe Fisher, Realist

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Author Torsten Asselmeyer-Maluga replied on Mar. 3, 2017 @ 19:53 GMT
Dear Joe,

I will start reading your essay (remembering on discussions some years ago).

Best Torsten




Daniel de França Diniz Rocha wrote on Mar. 3, 2017 @ 23:17 GMT
Dear Torsten,

I once thought about cognition being derived from closed loops. The reason for is since we are aware of many things, even if unconsciously, I think we are at least in very a neurotic and compulsive state of mind towards any kind of information. And, indeed, the circuitry of our brain is made of small loops, when information is kept stored, and large loops, which pass through the Thalamus several times, being redistributed to several other parts of the brains. So, it is basically a mechanism cortex-thalamus-cortex-thalamus. The cerebellum here may also include cerebellum, for extremely repetitive and fast processing.

Interestingly,thought not related to what led me to think about the latter, In fact, one the earliest types of computer memory a similar idea:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delay_line_memory

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Author Torsten Asselmeyer-Maluga replied on Mar. 5, 2017 @ 18:07 GMT
Dear Daniel,

thanks for your comments. I had the feeling that the loop hypothesis is correct. I was thing that there is an interaction between neurons which can be not directly realized (so that it forms a loop).

Your explaination is interesting and I need only some loops for my argument.

Certainly I have to look in your essay.

Best wishes

Torsten



Daniel de França Diniz Rocha replied on Mar. 6, 2017 @ 00:43 GMT
Correction: So, it is basically a mechanism cortex-thalamus-cortex-thalamus. The cerebellum here may also include cerebellum, for extremely repetitive and fast processing.

The correct is

So, it is basically a mechanism cortex-thalamus-cortex-thalamus. The "brain" here may also include cerebellum, for extremely repetitive and fast processing.

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Anonymous wrote on Mar. 6, 2017 @ 01:06 GMT
Torsten,

Great essay! I discuss very much the same thing in my essay which is in line with MERA or tensor networks. There is a sort of analogue between quantum cosmology, or quantum bits in cosmology and general information networks. The universe is a network of causal sets. There is I think a switch between blue and green in the pictorial representation of contractible and noncontractible loops.

Cheers LC

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Lawrence B. Crowell replied on Mar. 6, 2017 @ 01:08 GMT
This post was from me, but for some reason I was logged out. I boosted your score a bit!

LC

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Author Torsten Asselmeyer-Maluga replied on Mar. 7, 2017 @ 22:04 GMT
Dear Lawrence,

thanks for reading my essay. Today I had the chance to read your essay (in the train). You are right that our essays are connected. The math is a little bit different but the idias look similar.

I better post my question in your essay part.

Best Torsten




Cristinel Stoica wrote on Mar. 7, 2017 @ 10:03 GMT
Dear Torsten,

I enjoyed reading your essay. I like how you applied the theory developed by Morgan and Shalen for 3-manifolds to neural networks and feedback loops, to explain learning and intuition. The essay was clear, self-contained, and well written. I think this approach may make interesting applications to the study of the processes taking place in the consciousness.

Best wishes,

Cristi Stoica

The Tablet of the Metalaw

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Member George F. R. Ellis wrote on Mar. 7, 2017 @ 12:50 GMT
Dear Torsten,

You deal with important issues; in particular, "The interaction between neurons given by the feedback loops controls the behavior of the neurons in the loop. In philosophy, one calls this behavior top-down causation: Top-down causation refers to the effects on components of organized systems that cannot be fully analyzed in terms of component-level behavior but instead requires reference to the higher-level system itself. This model serves as a simple example of this principle."

This is indeed a good example, which I appreciate. The concept is dealt with in more general contexts in my recent book How Can Physics Underlie the Mind?.

Regards

George Ellis

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Author Torsten Asselmeyer-Maluga replied on Mar. 7, 2017 @ 22:07 GMT
Dear Prof Ellis,

I'm honnored that you read my essay.

Currently I had no chance to have a look into your book but I plan to read it. Today I read your essay but I will better comment in your essay part.

Best Torsten




Lawrence B. Crowell wrote on Mar. 14, 2017 @ 01:34 GMT
I will try to respond tomorrow. I got the flu a few weeks ago and now I have bronchitis that is sort of dragging me down. I do have a question concerning the Uhlenbeck, Freed, Donaldson type of result, but I will have to wait until tomorrow if I am better.

Cheers LC

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Willy K wrote on Mar. 19, 2017 @ 05:17 GMT
Hi Torsten

Since I am not conversant with hyperbolic geometry and quantum physics, I cannot pretend to have understood all the fine details present in your modeling of the neural network, but I certainly found it to be intriguing, since my own essay was attempting a different type of modeling, that of the social system. What I found most interesting about your model was that the top-down flow of neural activity is more predictive of conscious awareness than the bottom-up flow of activity. You go on to state in the conclusion, “Top down causation refers to the effects on components of organized systems that cannot be fully analyzed in terms of component-level behavior but instead requires reference to the higher-level system itself”.

Speaking purely from what I would expect to be the case for intelligent systems, (without much knowledge of the brain as an organ), I would expect such top down causation to be present if a system is to be considered as intelligent. And although I have not thought about it in precisely those terms in my essay, I think you might be able to recognize this top down behavior in it as well. I think you have written a great essay and I rate it accordingly.

Warm Regards, Willy

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Author Torsten Asselmeyer-Maluga replied on Mar. 20, 2017 @ 20:03 GMT
Dear Willy,

thanks for your words and in particular for reading my essay. I printed your essay today and will read it in the next days.

I agree with you that top-down causation is one important sign for intelligence but also complex behaviour. Interestingly, at first I also thought about to write the essay about social systems. So, I'm eager to read your ideas.

Thanks also fo rthe voting (unfortunately destroyed by another down-voting).

Best wishes (and more soon)

Torsten



Willy K replied on Mar. 26, 2017 @ 07:07 GMT
Hi Torsten

Since you haven't yet reviewed, I thought I'll sneak in a comment here. You are probably familiar with Conant's Good Regulator Theorem, since it explicitly deals with brains as an example. I would greatly value your feedback on whether it is applicable to my work.

http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/books/Conant_Ashby.pdf

At present my understanding is that it is applicable. My interpretation of Conant, in the domain of brains, would be that it is the regulational part of the brain that is a model of the brain's basic perturbations. This is a slightly different emphasis from Conant, since in his work he suggested that the entire brain 'must' model its environment.

On modeling the external world, the brain may not be a perfect at it, but if enough focus is given to a certain area of the external world, the brain could eventually be trained to model that part of the external world very well. Please let me know what you think.

Warm Regards, Willy

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Author Torsten Asselmeyer-Maluga replied on Mar. 27, 2017 @ 21:38 GMT
Dear Willy,

at first I was travelling the last three days and here is my delayed answer...

Thanks for reading my essay and the comments.

I agree with you completely as top-down causation is a very important sign for intelligence

but not the only one (there are also complex systems showing top-down causation without

being alife).

With great interest I also read your essay. Before I found this model about the neural

networks I also thought about social systems (right in your spirit). As you correctly

stated hierarchical structures played a strong role in this game. (I like the Nelson Mandela cite) I miss a little bit the evolutionary elment in your discussion (my work enforced me to think in this direction).

I'm quit esure that this regulator theorem is applicable for you theory as well.

Thanks for writing such a good essay

Best wishes

Torsten




Jonathan J. Dickau wrote on Mar. 22, 2017 @ 16:12 GMT
Hello Torsten..

I wanted to thank you for the comments left on my essay page, and to let you know I have begun to read and enjoy your essay. There is a lot to digest! I like the way you introduce the need for top-down interactions, to provide a faithful model of perception. I think both the universe and our awareness of it are participatory, even though much is automatic. I think learning about the non-automatic part is the key to understanding perception. Playing with ideas gives more insight than memorizing.

I appreciate the link to your paper with a no-go result for an n-qubit Spin-2 Hamiltonian simulation. This could be relevant to the matter of quantum computing via a BEC/BH event horizon analogy, I imagine. I apologize for the delay responding. I submerged myself to finish my first ever essay for the Gravity Research Foundation contest, but that is now sent in. Back to you soon, with more on your essay.

All the Best,

Jonathan

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Author Torsten Asselmeyer-Maluga replied on Mar. 22, 2017 @ 21:58 GMT
Hello Jonathan,

what a nice coincidence: I also submit my essay for GRG today.

I'm glad you like the no-go paper (it was never published in a journal. It was rejected because the result is of no interest for physics).

I'm eager to see your feedback

All the best

Torsten




James Lee Hoover wrote on Mar. 23, 2017 @ 17:16 GMT
Torsten,

Remember you from the last contest.

I wonder if topology could shed light to the 1.8 billion light-years across supervoid, seemingly an anomaly scientists have discovered, something I reference in my essay.

Neural network models are a quite intriguing addition to neural studies. I would think that a qualitative approach for the brain is especially effective considering the multitudinous neural pathways of the brain.

Mindless rules will generate mind! Clever.

Hope you get a chance to comment on mine.

Jim Hoover

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Author Torsten Asselmeyer-Maluga replied on Mar. 23, 2017 @ 22:47 GMT
Jim,

thanks for reading my essay and for the comments.

After the completion of my GRG essay I will have a look into your essay soon (it is on my reading list).

Therefore More later

Torsten




Jonathan J. Dickau wrote on Mar. 24, 2017 @ 04:38 GMT
This is excellent work Torsten!

I have a quibble, that in human brain learning studies it was found that the naive view holding that similarities of structure between table result in similar memory encoding is untrue, but it was found that memory images were grouped by function instead. So there are several places a coffee cup appears represented in the brain, depending on whether it is empty or full, clean or dirty, and so on. It's usage determines how it is stored. So we might find table and couch represented in the same brain areas.

But this is in keeping with your observation of the importance of top-down influences, because to a living being in the real world objects are meant to be used or to have uses - which affects how we conceive of it. The old Chinese proverb is that the value of an urn is the space it contains. But this is an object fashioned by humans because it can fulfill a particular purpose. It is interesting though, that this purpose orientation is a driver of neurological specialization.

It was worth taking the time needed to digest the Maths, so I could get a better perspective of your intended meaning. But more digestion is required; you have given me a lot of food for thought, between your essay and comments, so I'll likely have some questions or a few comments of my own. An excellent read overall, and I hope you do well in the contest.

All the Best,

Jonathan

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Jonathan J. Dickau replied on Mar. 24, 2017 @ 04:40 GMT
Gee whiz...

That was meant to be 'a chair and a couch.'

Best, JJD

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Jonathan J. Dickau wrote on Mar. 24, 2017 @ 16:04 GMT
I wanted to cycle back and say more..

First; I love the notion that consciousness is a fractal, and the fact it is the end result of your test process is very cool. It appears that the definition arises solely by imposing topological conditions and mapping the resulting parameter space; is this correct?

I've become fond of the idea that fractals are a way for nature to squeeze in more information than would otherwise fit in the constraints of certain geometrical or topological parameters. The folding of space at the boundaries provides an extensive working surface, and the self-similarity assures a consistent rule will emerge for entities exploring that parameter space. So it is, I guess, natural that emergent consciousness would be characterized by fractality. I will continue to ponder what you have written.

I hope that, at some point, we can expand our conversation beyond the contest topic. My current research carries me into areas where your expertise would be very helpful. The Mandelbrot Set suggests a geometrical route to unifying gravity with the rest of Physics. At (-0.75, 0i); the 5-d black hole --> 4-d spacetime scenario proposed by Pourhasan, Afshordi, and Mann is realized (if embedding M in the octonions is assumed), because Cartan's rolling-ball analogy of G2 symmetries is precisely modeled. And so is the set-up for DGP gravity!

Further down; the Misiurewicz point near (-1.543689, 0i) is an exact model for the quantum critical point of BEC formation, where an analogy can be made with Schwarzschild event horizons. This connection was first suggested by Sakharov, but has been extensively treated in recent papers by Dvali and colleagues. As you know, this has deep connections with topology, exploring degrees of freedom, and so on. But there is much work to be done, to carry this to fruition.

More later,

Jonathan

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Jonathan J. Dickau wrote on Mar. 24, 2017 @ 21:26 GMT
I was pleased to see I'd boosted your score to par with mine..

But now I see someone has knocked it back down again. This essay deserves to be in the finals, so that it will receive a review by someone intelligent enough to rate its quality fairly. Again I wish you luck Torsten.

Regards,

Jonathan

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Author Torsten Asselmeyer-Maluga replied on Mar. 27, 2017 @ 20:48 GMT
Dear Jonthan,

at first I was travelling the last three days and here is my delayed answer..

Thanks for the voting and for your words. I hope to get a chance for the next round but to have a chance for good discussions is also very good.

Your interpretation of fractals (as squeezing information) is very good. I never thought in this direction. Fractals is only one method for a more general view, a wild embedding (like Alexanders horned sphere). I wrote about it in the previous FqXi essay contests. I found it by chance during my research on exotic smoothness. The interesting point is the equivalence between wild embeddings and quantum states (and therefore fractals as wild embeddings of the circle must be also correspond to some quantum state).

Therefore what you wrote about Mandelbrot sets and unification contains maybe a very deep truth. We should start an email exchange about it (torsten.asselmeyer-maluga@dlr.de) if you like....

As a direct reaction: it was interesting what you wrote about functional memory of our brain. Honestly I don't know it. I was guided by mathematics when I developed this model.

Thanks again for voting

More later

Torsten




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