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RECENT POSTS IN THIS TOPIC

Robert Groess: on 4/7/17 at 17:32pm UTC, wrote Dear Héctor, Thank you for your reply. As regards time, I invite you to...

Héctor Gianni: on 4/4/17 at 20:38pm UTC, wrote Dear Robert Groess: Thank you for having a...

Robert Groess: on 4/2/17 at 16:05pm UTC, wrote Dear Héctor Gianni, Thank you for your comment on my forum. I have in the...

Bayarsaikhan Choisuren: on 3/24/17 at 4:11am UTC, wrote Dear Héctor, Time does not claim existence on its own, but only as a...

Héctor Gianni: on 3/22/17 at 22:43pm UTC, wrote Dear Ch. Bayarsaikhan: “Time”...

Bayarsaikhan Choisuren: on 3/19/17 at 1:06am UTC, wrote Dear Héctor I agree with you, the time is very deep conception. I...

Héctor Gianni: on 3/19/17 at 0:15am UTC, wrote Dear Ch. Bayarsaikhan: You as all physicist...

James Putnam: on 3/18/17 at 2:48am UTC, wrote Dear Héctor Daniel Gianni, Thank you for visiting my essay forum. I have...


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FQXi FORUM
April 23, 2017

CATEGORY: Wandering Towards a Goal Essay Contest (2016-2017) [back]
TOPIC: TIME ORIGIN, DEFINITION AND EMPIRICAL MEANING FOR PHYSICISTS by Héctor Daniel Gianni [refresh]
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Author Héctor Daniel Gianni wrote on Feb. 17, 2017 @ 21:08 GMT
Essay Abstract

TIME ORIGIN, DEFINITION AND EMPIRICAL MEANING FOR PHYSICISTS Héctor Daniel Gianni Time does not claim existence on its own, but only as a "system of measurement" The "system" requires, the "counter" or the man who records the measurement, as the representative of reality. Time Definition: a "constant and uniform movement measurement system". The "system" is based on a "Day" as a natural fundamental unit. The time empirical meaning: is movement, a quality or property of everything with physical existence. The Day unit fractions: hour, minute, second and also Day unit multiple as week, month, year, are properly call time because these are units of the "measurement system". Anthropologists supported by archeologists tell us, that man was measuring the so called "time" since ages ago, there are calendars dated on 25.000 years old. (When I would mention, "the so called time" I refer to the mysterious "time" with no definition and empiric meaning, as usually people use the word "time" today) Time is a man "measurement system" of "constant and uniform" movement. The following statements are solid scientific proves on which are based Time Origin, Definition and Empiric meaning. Earth rotation movement is "constant and uniform" . Day is a "natural fundamental unit" of the time system of measurement. The Day is a natural "Earth rotation movement fraction"; this movement period is limited on Earth surface by two subsequent sunrises. "Artificial" time units, as hours, minutes and seconds are arbitrary man made units, as fractions of a Day "natural fundamental unit" of movement". Week, month and year are Day multiple units. Earth Translation movement is "constant and uniform" Clock main quality; is the capability to register units of "constant and uniform movement". On the most common analogical clock, the hour, the minute and the second hands, measure their own "Constant and Uniform movement fractions", counted by us on dial numbers.

Author Bio

University of Buenos Aires, degree MD. MN. Nº 32.803, 1967. ECFMG Candidate number 097729 approved 78 % Jan/22/1968 Surgical Intern The Queen’s Medical Center, Honolulu Hawaii 1968-1969 Psychiatry Residency Metropolitan State Hospital, Waltham Mass.1969-1970-1971-1972 Advanced Study in Psychotherapy at Harvard Medical School, Mass.1971-1972. I taught Clinical psychiatry at Tufts Medical School, Boston Mass. 1971-1972 Staff psychiatrist Florida State Hospital, 1972-1975. Research: “The Institute of Medical research, Dr Alfredo Lanari” University of Buenos Aires, field: nervous transmissions. 1979-1983. Private practice: Psychoterapist

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John C Hodge wrote on Feb. 17, 2017 @ 21:45 GMT
I notice animals have a sense of time.

When referring to the left side of the field equation (the transformed side) the word used "time" with a symbol "t"

when referring to the right side (measurement - observed) the word "clock" is used.

If a pendulum clock is used, the duration is ASSUMED to be uniform.

Place one of 2 identical clocks aboard a airplane and go around the Earth. The 2 clocks will disagree about the duration(number of ticks) elapsed.

We understand that as the airplane accelerates and lands, the bob on the clock may stop due to the acceleration. We understand the working of the pendulum clock.

We don't know the workings of radioactive decay. So rather than assuming time dilation, it could be the mechanical acceleration change the rate.

Hodge

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Satyavarapu Naga Parameswara Gupta wrote on Feb. 18, 2017 @ 10:05 GMT
Dear Dr Héctor Daniel Gianni,

Good essay on time. You touched many aspects of time. But there is one definition by Einstein…. i.e.. “Time is forth dimension”

Have a look at my essay also…

Best wishes for your essay.

=snp. gupta

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Paul N Butler wrote on Feb. 18, 2017 @ 19:32 GMT
Dear Daniel,

I have not yet looked at all of the papers in this contest, but your paper is by far the best one that I have seen so far. You are right that there is no existence of a time dimension, etc. and time is just a relationship between a motion and the distance that it travels in comparison to some other motion that travels a specific distance. It is only needed because all motions...

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Joe Fisher wrote on Feb. 20, 2017 @ 16:43 GMT
Dear Dr Héctor Daniel Gianni,

Please excuse me for I have no intention of disparaging in any way any part of your essay.

I merely wish to point out that “Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler. Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955) Physicist & Nobel Laureate.”

Only nature could produce a reality so simple, a single cell amoeba could deal with it.

The real Universe must consist only of one unified visible infinite physical surface occurring in one infinite dimension, that am always illuminated by infinite non-surface light.

A more detailed explanation of natural reality can be found in my essay, SCORE ONE FOR SIMPLICITY. I do hope that you will read my essay and perhaps comment on its merit.

Joe Fisher, Realist

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Author Héctor Daniel Gianni wrote on Feb. 20, 2017 @ 23:02 GMT
Dear Paul Butler:

You choose my essay as the best you read till now, this show me that at least mine is readable, clear and understandable for you. I thank you for your opinion.

My essay is radical because left aside the prehistoric and unfunded...

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Paul N Butler replied on Feb. 22, 2017 @ 17:56 GMT
Dear Hector,

It is not that I find that your paper is the most readable, clear, and understandable that caused me to commend your paper because in some ways it is not. It was that you have a better understanding of time than most current scientists have. We live in a motion continuum. Matter, energy photon, and the sub-energy particles that make up field structures are all composed or...

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Anonymous wrote on Feb. 21, 2017 @ 21:21 GMT
Dear Gupta:

First several times Einstein refer to the forth dimension as “the imaginary dimension”. Second: As I said the experimental meaning of “the so called time” is “movement” as such it would be represented as any “event” are, with the 3 spatial dimensions and the fourth dimension, it would be represented by an special kind of movement, “constant and uniform” movement, or just clock movement. He also said “The key step forward in developing relativity, is time reconceptualization”.

Thank you for reading my essay

Héctor

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Author Héctor Daniel Gianni wrote on Feb. 21, 2017 @ 21:25 GMT
Dear Gupta:

First several times Einstein refer to the forth dimension as “the imaginary dimension”. Second: As I said the experimental meaning of “the so called time” is “movement” as such it would be represented as any “event” are, with the 3 spatial dimensions and the fourth dimension, it would be represented by an special kind of movement, “constant and uniform” movement, or just clock movement. He also said “The key step forward in developing relativity, is time reconceptualization”.

Thank you for reading my essay

Héctor




Author Héctor Daniel Gianni wrote on Feb. 21, 2017 @ 22:37 GMT
Dear John C Hodge:

Sure animals have a sense of time, that’s why lions anticipate their hunt position in it’s running for their life.

You said “Place one of 2 identical clocks aboard a airplane and go around the Earth. The 2 clocks will disagree about the duration(number of ticks) elapsed”

The atomic clock in the plain will slow it’s functioning respect the one on land, because airplane speed inertia, and will function faster than the witness clock, (with no ticks) as higher it is flying because of less gravity. The difference between inertia and gravity forces causes, would tell us the difference between the two clocks functioning.

You said “We don't know the workings of radioactive decay. So rather than assuming time dilation, it could be the mechanical acceleration change the rate”

I don’t know the muon decay process either, also I didn’t say the muon decay is slowing because “time dilation”. But it’s decay process slow because muon cosmic ray speed. Speed inertia slows any kind of movement, and the decay process must have movement, because without movement there are not change or transformation.

Thank you for reading my essay

Héctor




Anonymous wrote on Mar. 10, 2017 @ 18:35 GMT
Great Essay, a I give you a ten.

You surely showed how the thinking about time is intrinsically entwined to our attempts to set objective parameters to have a real sense of the world. Given our intrinsic biological limitations, we inevitably end up thinking about time as some sort of continuous motion. Now, a question came up to me. Is it intrinsic to humans the tendency of imagine time as some sort of continuous motion or is it intrinsic to any type of intelligence to imagine that? So, while time is a created concept, perhaps the concept of a a thing continuous motion is not. What do you think?

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Branko L Zivlak wrote on Mar. 11, 2017 @ 12:42 GMT
Dear Mr. Gianni,

You have expressed the time in many different ways. The most important way you forgot. It is through a well-known formula h*ni=mc^2. The formula shows that: to any mass we can attribute frequency or time t=h/mc^2=lambdacompton/c. The importance of this time you can see in my essay FQXi for 2015.

Regards

Branko

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Vladimir Nikolaevich Fedorov wrote on Mar. 12, 2017 @ 12:25 GMT
Dear Héctor,

Thank you for the invitation to your essey,

I liked your essay, especially the phrase

«I can easily explain that “time dilation” is a physically inexistent phenomenon, because is just inertia or gravity “clocks slowing” and also can show in detail that twin paradox».

I congratulate you with interesting thoughts and wish you every success in the contest.

Kind regards,

Vladimir

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Author Héctor Daniel Gianni replied on Mar. 13, 2017 @ 22:13 GMT
Dear Vladimir Nikolaevich Fedorov:

Thank you for reading my essay, I am glad that you liked that phrase in especial. ¡Certainly, you must know why!

My best whishes



Héctor




Georgina Woodward wrote on Mar. 13, 2017 @ 03:45 GMT
Hi Hector,

It was interesting for me to read your ideas about time. I would like to suggest this essay that was in another FQXi competition, 'Rethinking a key assumption about time' by J.C. N. Smith, 2012. I agree with him that foundational time is the configuration of the substantial /material universe. He presents a good argument for that.

Beyond that there is also emergent time. We do not sense the material universe itself but process received sensory information into the perceived present (an Image reality). That sensory information takes different lengths of time to arrive (having traveled different distances) so is temporally non-homogenous. Thus the present that is experienced is a model that is in appearance temporally different from the source reality which is uni-temporal. Because of the very fast speed of light this is not particularly relevant to everyday life but becomes significant at very large distances, and at high speeds. Relativity is dealing with this emergent reality from information processing. Though it seems that the emergent space-time has been mistakenly regarded as the external reality. I have spent some time on the FQXi blog discussion pages pointing out the category error of not differentiating between material source objects and nonequivalent fabricated images. The different location and relative motion of observers affects which EM sensory information is received and amalgamated into the perceived reality.

You make some interesting well set out points but I do not see that your essay has anything to do with the topic of the essay competition.

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Peter Bauch wrote on Mar. 13, 2017 @ 21:00 GMT
Dear Héctor,

Thanks for the invite to comment. I agree with your straightforward approach to time and your idea that time is dependent on movement. Although time seems nothing more than what you measure with a clock, there is something intriguing about it which has physicists searching to attach a greater meaning.

You said “the decay process must have movement” in an earlier post and in my opinion you brought up a very interesting point about time. I think that particles have an extended structure and are not just points. In the case of the muon – a particle which decays – there are a set number of internal movements before it decays. As the particle increases its velocity, these movements must slow or the velocity of light will be exceeded when its motion through space and internal motions are combined. This is why it takes a longer time to decay.

Regards,

Peter

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Anonymous wrote on Mar. 13, 2017 @ 22:37 GMT
Dear Georgina Woodward:

You are right my essay has nothing to do with the topic of this essay competition.1)I don't care for the competition at all.2)I'm just care to give to physicists Time Definition and empiric meaning that they needed so bad since mor than 50 years ago, if they don't take it certainly they will wait for another 2 or 3 thousand years more to know it.I don´t need it.

Thank you for reading my essay

Héctor

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Author Héctor Daniel Gianni wrote on Mar. 13, 2017 @ 22:41 GMT
Dear Georgina Woodward:

You are right my essay has nothing to do with the topic of this essay competition.1)I don't care for the competition at all.2)I'm just care to give to physicists Time Definition and empiric meaning that they needed so bad since mor than 50 years ago, if they don't take it certainly they will wait for another 2 or 3 thousand years more to know it.I don´t need it.

Thank you for reading my essay

Héctor




Author Héctor Daniel Gianni wrote on Mar. 13, 2017 @ 22:55 GMT
Dear Peter Bauch:

You said "Although time seems nothing more than what you measure with a clock, there is something intriguing about it which has physicists searching to attach a greater meaning" This happen because they base themselves on their believes and not on the scientific proves that I offer in my essay. Science always should prevail over believes. Thank you for reading my essay

My best whishes

Héctor




Bayarsaikhan Bayarsaikhan Choisuren wrote on Mar. 15, 2017 @ 00:26 GMT
Dear Héctor,

I like this phrase:

“Time” does not act, or form part of any change or transformation;

“movement” does. “Time” is the system we use to measure the duration of

those. I don’t have the necessary space, but knowing that “time” is

movement I can easily explain that “time dilation” is a physically inexistent phenomenon, because is just inertia or gravity “clocks slowing” and also can show in detail that twin paradox is not a paradox, but could be a real biological thing.

The foundation of reality should start from simple mechanical motion. and so, I think that at the foundation of the natural structure (Foundations of Hierarchy), there might not be any energy dissipation, while being perfect.

My email: ch.bayarsaikhan@yahoo.com

I would like to keep in touch with you, if I know your email.

Ch.Bayarsaikhan

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Bayarsaikhan Bayarsaikhan Choisuren wrote on Mar. 17, 2017 @ 10:19 GMT
Dear Héctor,

In my opinion, time is expressed in physics as if a time line is a real number line displaying a list of changes in chronological order in a reference phenomenon, as whose each point corresponds an each change in the reference phenomenon within a closed dynamical system.

The sun’s motion is the reference phenomenon to measure a change in other phenomenon while comparing with it.

There are too many phenomena in the world, therefore people can find a reference phenomenon to measure a change in other phenomenon while making an approach (theory) that is closer to the reality.

Here, mean thing is human conciseness that is able to measure changes in phenomena.

Human conciseness is a phenomenon of high-level hierarchical system.

The reality of this high-level hierarchical system is hard to understand for human beings themselves.

Instead, the foundation at lower- level hierarchical system such as sub atomic particles and space-time is quite possible to perceive.



Ch.bayarsaikhan

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James A Putnam wrote on Mar. 18, 2017 @ 02:48 GMT
Dear Héctor Daniel Gianni,

Thank you for visiting my essay forum. I have downloaded your essay and will be reading it next week. Good luck to you.

James Putnam

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Author Héctor Daniel Gianni wrote on Mar. 19, 2017 @ 00:15 GMT
Dear Ch. Bayarsaikhan:

You as all physicist have the right to express their opinions as yours that “time is expressed in physics as if a time line is a real number line” before physicists can do that properly, first you all should know what’s time, if not I can ask what’s a “time line”, if you don´t know what’s time? what are you going to answer?...

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Bayarsaikhan Bayarsaikhan Choisuren wrote on Mar. 19, 2017 @ 01:06 GMT
Dear Héctor

I agree with you, the time is very deep conception. I appreciate your insightful content for “Time”. So, I have to think about it more while taking it into consideration.

If you have other papers, I would like to read them.

I like your words that

...desperate efforts of physicists to replace some way, one of the most basic and important quality or properties of nature, movement because this is part of all changes and transformations in the universe, physicists can’t give one step without it…

and also …

Knowing that “time” is movement, I would say that is not lost or hidden either. I think is there but not recognized as such, because (the time variable) in fact is a “movement variable”, this is the lost variable that it would be described by the 3 spatial dimensions that also describe the “event”, plus a “time forth dimension” (called imaginary by Einstein) consistent too with a movement, but a “Constant and Uniform” movement, the clock.



I believe that all of your thoughts are correct …

one of the most basic and important quality or properties of nature, movement because this is part of all changes and transformations in the universe, physicists can’t give one step without it.

Ch.Bayarsaikhan

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Author Héctor Daniel Gianni wrote on Mar. 22, 2017 @ 22:43 GMT
Dear Ch. Bayarsaikhan:

“Time” conception It’s so deep, that probably 20 or 30 thousand years ago, our observation capability as men, which is very deep buried in physicists minds, seeming to them too old too primitive thoughts that do not deserve research.

Well I think that “the so called time”...

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Bayarsaikhan Bayarsaikhan Choisuren replied on Mar. 24, 2017 @ 04:11 GMT
Dear Héctor,

Time does not claim existence on its own, but only as a “system of measurement” – For me, I totally agree with you, because as you said that “one of the most basic and important quality or properties of nature, movement because this is part of all changes and transformations in the universe, physicists can’t give one step without it.”

In other words, time is a “system of measurement” that may be taken as changes in chronological order in a reference phenomenon in a globally closed dynamical system.

For the relativistic effect called a time dilation, It may be conceived that it occurs due to changing attitude toward the chronological order in a reference phenomenon, which caused by a change attitude of all the phenomena in the closed dynamical system because this time is part of all changes and transformations in the universe, physicists can’t give one step without it.

Therefore, it is correct that “The time empirical meaning: is movement, a quality or property of everything with physical existence” and “Time is a man measurement system of “constant and uniform movement”.

With Best Regards,

Ch. Bayarsaikhan

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Robert Groess wrote on Apr. 2, 2017 @ 16:05 GMT
Dear Héctor Gianni,

Thank you for your comment on my forum. I have in the meantime had a look at your essay and understand you have focused most heavily on the sub-question "How are goals (versus accomplishments) linked to “arrows of time”?", from the list of evaluation criteria. You have specified a number of ways we can perceive and understand time, in many ways similar to the wide ranging book "About Time" by Paul Davies. I do have one question, which I am hoping you might clarify for me, and that is how are goals "linked" to arrows of time in your essay?

Regards,

Robert

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Author Héctor Daniel Gianni wrote on Apr. 4, 2017 @ 20:38 GMT
Dear Robert Groess:

Thank you for having a look to my essay, just having a look means you were never really interested in “time”. I just came to this contest to contact mostly physicists to let them know “time” definition and empiric meaning not with a viable theory, but with the prove that is a “system of measurement” and with an experimental meaning as “movement” proved showing with all clocks, that with them we measure “constant and uniform” movement and nothing else, as Einstein use to tell physicists when asked What’s is “time”?. There is not a “time line” neither past nor future but just present (humanly defined) where also we analyze the past and imagine the future. Physicists said they badly need this knowledge since 50 or 60 years ago. They usually think “the time problem” is theirs; wrong it was involuntarily created by the prehistoric man, when nobody dreams with physics as a scientific discipline.

With my best whishes

Héctor



Robert Groess replied on Apr. 7, 2017 @ 17:32 GMT
Dear Héctor,

Thank you for your reply. As regards time, I invite you to read The Evolving Block Universe and the Meshing Together of Times by George Ellis which I believe will provide a great foundation to your work.

You essay in the context of this contest is out of scope and I will politely decline from further discussion about it.

Regards,

Robert

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