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RECENT POSTS IN THIS TOPIC

Patrick Tonin: on 4/2/17 at 20:15pm UTC, wrote Hi Gavin, Thank you for reading my essay. I read the abstract of yours and...

Patrick Tonin: on 4/2/17 at 20:03pm UTC, wrote Dear Alexey, Thank you for your comments above. I will read your essay and...

Alexey/Lev Burov: on 4/2/17 at 17:33pm UTC, wrote PS Patrick, sorry for misspelling your name in the post above. I did not...

Gavin Rowland: on 4/2/17 at 0:38am UTC, wrote Hi Patrick Very important subject matter you deal with, and concisely...

Alexey/Lev Burov: on 4/1/17 at 22:47pm UTC, wrote Dear Patric, An excellent essay, congratulations! It reminded me of the...

Patrick Tonin: on 3/29/17 at 13:15pm UTC, wrote Hi Don, No I didn't, but it is a nice idea ! Cheers, Patrick

Don Limuti: on 3/29/17 at 12:52pm UTC, wrote Hi Patrick, Thanks for visiting my essay. By the way, in your essay, did...

Patrick Tonin: on 3/29/17 at 8:14am UTC, wrote Hi Don, Thank you for reading my essay and for your comments. I will read...


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FQXi FORUM
April 27, 2017

CATEGORY: Wandering Towards a Goal Essay Contest (2016-2017) [back]
TOPIC: A Universe of information and consciousness by Patrick Tonin [refresh]
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Author Patrick Tonin wrote on Feb. 7, 2017 @ 21:43 GMT
Essay Abstract

Most theoretical physicists seem to find it difficult to relate notions like information and consciousness to the physical world. I believe that part of the problem is that they are convinced that matter is the fundamental substance in nature. But what if information and consciousness were the very basic constituents of our Universe ? By using simple logic, I will try to show, in just 2 pages, that information and consciousness are inevitable and ubiquitous in the Universe and that our 3D material reality is only an emergent phenomenon.

Author Bio

BSc in Electronics and Computing - BA in Business Studies. Former Sales Director in computer networking industry.

Download Essay PDF File




Author Patrick Tonin wrote on Feb. 8, 2017 @ 08:12 GMT
"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness"

Max Planck (The Observer - 25 January 1931)



Vladimir Rogozhin replied on Feb. 8, 2017 @ 11:37 GMT
Dear Patrick!

I read with interest your essay. Excellent analysis, dialectical approach and are extremely important conclusion with which I fully agree: Consciousness is therefore ubiquitous in the Universe. My high score. We are waiting for the continuation.Yours faithfully,Vladimir

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Author Patrick Tonin replied on Feb. 8, 2017 @ 12:59 GMT
Dear Vladimir,

Thank you for reading my essay and for your nice comments. I will read yours and leave my comments on your blog.

Regards,

Patrick




sridattadev kancharla wrote on Feb. 8, 2017 @ 17:06 GMT
Dear Patrick,

I enjoyed your hypothesis on trinity of existence, non existence and consciousness. I hope that you will enjoy a study of consciousness that I put forth in There are no goals as such and Singularity of consciousness .

Cheers.

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Author Patrick Tonin replied on Feb. 8, 2017 @ 18:11 GMT
Dear Sridattadev,

I am glad you enjoyed my essay. I will take a look at your links and comment on your blog.

Cheers,

Patrick



Joe Fisher replied on Feb. 10, 2017 @ 16:56 GMT
Dear Patrick Tonin,

Please excuse me for I do not wish to be too critical of your fine essay and I do hope that it fairs well in the competition.

Only nature could produce a reality so simple, a single cell amoeba could deal with it.

One real visible Universe must have only one reality. Simple natural reality has nothing to do with any abstract complex musings about any imaginary invisible “information and consciousness (that) are inevitable and ubiquitous in the (invisible) Universe and that our 3D material reality is only an emergent phenomenon.” The real Universe must consist only of one unified visible infinite physical surface occurring in one infinite dimension, that am always illuminated by infinite non-surface light.

A more detailed explanation of natural reality can be found in my essay, SCORE ONE FOR SIMPLICITY. I do hope that you will read my essay and comment on its merit.

Joe Fisher, Realist

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Mohamed Ali Haj Yousef wrote on Feb. 12, 2017 @ 16:13 GMT
Thank you dear Patrick for your positive comment.

I read your essay, and although it is very short but it does actually touch on the basic reality, though it requires further analysis.

In my openion althogh everything is essentially predestined, but since we do not know the destination we need to work in order to arrive to it. So you see it is all about knowledge and information as you said. The best way to understand this is to take two points of view, or two refernces as in Relativity.

So with respect to someone moving at the speed of light, everything exits all at once (and this is obtained by Relativity itself; a photon encounters no space-time), so everything is known, but with respect to an inertial observer, he/she need to move through space and time in order to realize more potential information.

In my original model as described in my other articles/books, I explain how one could attain these high states of realization. In summary this has to be by giviing away or giving up mass. This can even be seen through the equations:

And then integrate from m to zero when dv=0:

I hope the latex equations work!

Best Regards

Mohamed

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Mohamed Ali Haj Yousef replied on Feb. 12, 2017 @ 16:15 GMT
Please see the post and the equations in my original post:

original post

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Janice F. Murin replied on Feb. 13, 2017 @ 14:20 GMT
The essay is very short, but I like the ideas. It seems that the TRINITY of EXISTENCE CONSCIOUSNESS NONEXISTENCE is at work everywhere.

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Author Patrick Tonin replied on Feb. 13, 2017 @ 16:33 GMT
Dear Janice,

Thank you for reading my essay. I am glad that you like the ideas.

All the best,

Patrick




Satyavarapu Naga Parameswara Gupta wrote on Feb. 15, 2017 @ 08:59 GMT
Dear Patrick Tonin,

Thank you for your beautiful discussion of information and consciousness in the physical world… Your conclusion is excellent… I fully agree: Consciousness is therefore ubiquitous in the Universe….

For further discussion, hope you not mind, please see your words…

1…..” At the start of the Universe there is nothing, nothing exists, not even time.”

2….” At this stage, we could say that UB’s are anywhere and at any time but also everywhere and at every time. From this point of view, we could say that the Universe is infinite and has always existed.”

Are contradicting yourself… ?

Hope you will not mind having a look at my essay also…

Best Regards

=snp

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Author Patrick Tonin replied on Feb. 15, 2017 @ 12:44 GMT
Dear Snp,

That's a good point you make !

In fact, it depends on the point of view. From the point of view of the Universe seen as a whole, we could say that it is infinite and has always existed but from the point of view of someone's reality, it has a definite start. I believe that there is an infinite number of realities.

I will read your essay and leave a comment on your blog.

Best regards,

Patrick



Satyavarapu Naga Parameswara Gupta replied on Feb. 15, 2017 @ 22:09 GMT
Thank you Patrick Tonin,

For your nice reply. it is good to know that you also got similar ideas,Can you please send me that essay as attachment here or through email.

My essay was available in viXra also, I also uploaded it there.......

Can you please send your comments again to me thro my mail id snp.gupta@gmail.com

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Satyavarapu Naga Parameswara Gupta replied on Feb. 15, 2017 @ 23:48 GMT
Dear Patrick,

This post I am reproducing from my essay...

I know your words…. “At the start of the Universe there is nothing, nothing exists, not even time. The most fundamental notion, a state of existence itself, has to be defined. But as nothing exists, how can a state of existence be defined ? The only solution is simply to introduce a state of non-existence.”… are concepts from Vedas only… As I remember it is from “Shristi suktam or the Hymn of creation”…

I bow low for knowledge of Vedas….. Excellent… !

Can you please send me some more details of your paper on your universe model…..

Best wishes to your essay

=snp

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Karl H Coryat wrote on Feb. 16, 2017 @ 02:47 GMT
Patrick: I like your approach to the philosophy of science -- it is very plain, straightforward, and concise. I would like to hear how you define "choice," given your assertion on p. 2 that a primordial choice can be either made or not made. Does choice evolve, and if so, how would primordial choice be manifested in the emergent world we observe?

It strikes me that your first-principles approach to a universe ontologically made of information shares similarities to the thesis of my 2012 FQXi essay, which won a prize. I expanded that into a book, which is available online for free if you have any interest in checking it out. Thanks for the read!

-Karl Coryat

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Author Patrick Tonin replied on Feb. 16, 2017 @ 12:43 GMT
Hi Karl,

Thank you for reading my essay and for your nice comments.

To answer your question, the primordial choice is made by the primordial state of consciousness. It is simply the most basic choice "to exist" or "not to exist". We could say that choice will evolve along with consciousness and I believe that the essence of that choice will always tend towards existence and that's why atoms, matter, plants, living organisms exist. The higher the state of consciousness, the more complex the "organism" is.

I will take a look at your essay and also the 2012 one.

All the best,

Patrick



Karl H Coryat replied on Feb. 16, 2017 @ 19:11 GMT
Interesting. Another perspective might be, rather than that the essence of choice will always tend toward existence, one could suggest that choice could go either way (perhaps with equal likelihood), and by the anthropic principle, we find ourselves in a world where choice has tended toward existence and ultimately consciousness. -KC

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Alexander M. Ilyanok wrote on Feb. 18, 2017 @ 17:18 GMT
Dear Patrick,

I read your essay today and find that we are in more agreement.

I adhere to view that the Universe is infinite and has always existed. And now, at the dawn of the technological singularity, we have chance to bring potential existence, potential non-existence into a 3D material reality.

We can talk about problem of digital mind and look beyond the horizon of events after the point of singularity – “Digital mind - one of the ways to immortality”

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/31372
4058_Digital_mind_-_one_of_the_ways_to_immortality

https://ww
w.researchgate.net/publication/278018597_Nanoclusters_as_sup
eratoms_and_supermolecules

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Peter Jackson wrote on Mar. 4, 2017 @ 13:53 GMT
Patrick,

Nicely written, interesting and original essay (Brevity is little issue with so many to read!).

I like the ideas, though you did seem to flirt with contradiction at times, but how would they relate to an eternally recycling universe?, i.e. a 'Big Bounce' or the hypothesis of a more AGN ('black hole') based re-ionization mechanism which I've published a paper on.

My essay is quite different from yours but none the less does rely on a sub matter 'field' which I see as not far from your own conception.

Best

Peter

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Branko L Zivlak wrote on Mar. 5, 2017 @ 14:49 GMT
Dear Patrick

I agree: Consciousness is therefore ubiquitous in the Universe.

I also agree: If there is a reality made of “something”, there is the same opposite reality made of “nothing”. But I do not understand what you mean exactly. Does this mean also, emptiness is inevitable as the fullness? Or, "dominant matter Universe" and "radiation dominant Universe" coexist, a stance in my essay.

I rated you fear in this moment.

Best regards,

Branko

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Author Patrick Tonin replied on Mar. 11, 2017 @ 10:09 GMT
Hi Branko,

Thank you for reading my essay.

In answer to your question, What I mean is that, on a fundamental level, "something" and "nothing" are relative and that two complete opposite Universes actually exist . What is perceived as "something" in one Universe is perceived as "nothing" in the opposite Universe and vice versa. Please note that I am not talking about emptiness and fullness.

Best regards,

Patrick




Wilhelmus de Wilde wrote on Mar. 11, 2017 @ 15:34 GMT
dear Patrick:

You begin with:

"At the start of the Universe there is nothing, nothing exists, not even time. The most fundamental notion, a state of existence itself, has to be defined. But as nothing exists, how can a state of existence be defined ? The only solution is simply to introduce a state of non-existence."

I should like to tarnslate this as ;

An emergent phenomenon is a universe on itself that for a specific agent inside may be infinite wihout a beginning or an ending. This emergent phenomenon (illusion/reality) from the "outside" is not existing, so without beginning or ending, no start. Time and Space are also emergent phenomenae inside the first one. so is existence, because existence needs time and space. The non existance means that it is a state outside existence and therefore existing...

Your UB is an existing entity in an emergent phenomenon, where its non existence of it is an effect of its existence. Indeed without consciousness the yes or no inside this emergent ohenomenon would be zero, data without consciousness is chaos.

About the "primordial existence of consciousness I invite you to read/comment and give a RATING to my essay "The Puropse of Life"

I gave you a high rating becaus you really are touching the essence of REALITY, only in my point of view you have to take a step further.

Best Regards

Wilhelmus de Wilde

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Author Patrick Tonin replied on Mar. 12, 2017 @ 07:18 GMT
Dear Wilhelmus,

Thank you for your comments.

I will read your essay and leave a comment on your page.

Cheers,

Patrick



Wilhelmus de Wilde replied on Mar. 13, 2017 @ 06:48 GMT
I rated you ffrom 5.3 to 5.5. Itis idiot that people just give one's without any comment

best regads

Wilhelmus

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Wilhelmus de Wilde replied on Mar. 13, 2017 @ 14:30 GMT
Hi patrick I see that the trols have acted again, also with me..you are back on 5.1 and I was thrown back to 5.3. In the beginning I had TRHREE ONES, brought back frm 7.5 to 3.5 !!! So be prepared to receive more, they don't stop. Good luck anayway

Wilhelmus

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Steve Dufourny wrote on Mar. 11, 2017 @ 18:49 GMT
Hello Mr Tonin,

Very general and universal,congratulation.I liked this universal bit, I beleive even that we have gravitation and electromgantism simply.Like if we had simply two main systems.

Good luck in this contest.

all the best

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Author Patrick Tonin replied on Mar. 29, 2017 @ 08:08 GMT
Hi Steve,

Thank you for reading my essay and for your comments.

Cheers,

Patrick




Wilhelmus de Wilde wrote on Mar. 12, 2017 @ 16:26 GMT
Dear Patrick

What you are describing in your essay is just in other words what i am thinking.

Every NOW moment the FLOW can change, which means also the past, so the memory.

Once lived means for me, the emergent phenomenon of that specific life line still is an availability in TS, exploring thsi idea further and trying to remember that also the ME is an emergent phenomenon it can mean that The life you are seeming to live now is an eternal sequence in some other time and space restricted emergent reality.

I very much agree with your thoughts.

best regards

thank you for the rating

Wilhelmus

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Jonathan Khanlian wrote on Mar. 12, 2017 @ 22:41 GMT
Hi Patrick,

Thanks for sharing your essay with me...I like its simplicity, but I'm wondering if you assume some external metaphysical rules that govern your model? Do the forces of nature come out of your model which posits 50-50 existence/non-existence bits? How does higher-level structure get created in our universe?

Thanks,

Jon

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Anonymous replied on Mar. 13, 2017 @ 05:41 GMT
Hi Jon,

If you imagine our Universe as a growing sphere of layered information and the outer layer made of existence/non-existence bits (like black and white squares on a chess board). There is a time when the pattern of white and black squares can not be even and this creates a black (or white) cross in the pattern, this is the begining of it all. I have shown in previous work that this pattern follows an 8Pi-1 ratio and 1/8Pi is the percentage of matter in the Universe (3.97 %). All the energy in the Universe comes from this breaking of symetry in the pattern. The pattern gets more and more complicated with time and the primordial state of consciousness evolves to a higher state. The Universe as a whole is the highest state of consciousness, we as humans are in a lower state of consciousness.

Cheers,

Patrick

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Don Limuti wrote on Mar. 28, 2017 @ 23:58 GMT
Hi Patrick,

You are obviously a master of duality, and I cannot wait for your next essay. I believe that it will concern how the 3D reality "emerges". Thanks for your logical sharpness, clarity, and brevity.

While you are at it would you just scribble a few lines on: "then should we sin so that grace may abound" (St. Paul, Corinthians).

Your essay addresses the question of this essay head on, and highlights the logical problems in the essay question. My essay is not quite as logical as yours, but it is shorter :) Take a look.

High marks,

Don Limuti

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Author Patrick Tonin replied on Mar. 29, 2017 @ 08:14 GMT
Hi Don,

Thank you for reading my essay and for your comments.

I will read your short essay and leave a comment on your page.

Cheers,

Patrick



Don Limuti replied on Mar. 29, 2017 @ 12:52 GMT
Hi Patrick,

Thanks for visiting my essay.

By the way, in your essay, did you intend the UB (universal bit) to reflect "you be" ?

Don Limuti

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Author Patrick Tonin replied on Mar. 29, 2017 @ 13:15 GMT
Hi Don,

No I didn't, but it is a nice idea !

Cheers,

Patrick




Alexey/Lev Burov wrote on Apr. 1, 2017 @ 22:47 GMT
Dear Patric,

An excellent essay, congratulations! It reminded me of the beginning of Hegel's Science of Logic, Chapter 1, Being, "Being, the indeterminate immediate, is in fact nothing, and neither more nor less than nothing," and the vicinity of that place, which you most likely know well. I like how your essay gives a fresh expression to the deep classical thought, so I am giving you a high score. I hope that my essay may be useful to you in your follow-up thinking. In any case, your comments on our page would be especially valuable for us.

Cheers,

Alexey Burov

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Alexey/Lev Burov replied on Apr. 2, 2017 @ 17:33 GMT
PS

Patrick, sorry for misspelling your name in the post above. I did not hesitate to rate your essay because I want you feeling absolutely free in expression of your possible criticism of our composition.

Alexey Burov.

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Author Patrick Tonin replied on Apr. 2, 2017 @ 20:03 GMT
Dear Alexey,

Thank you for your comments above. I will read your essay and comment on your page.

Cheers,

Patrick




Gavin William Rowland wrote on Apr. 2, 2017 @ 00:38 GMT
Hi Patrick

Very important subject matter you deal with, and concisely expressed. I believe your focus on information, consciousness and cosmic origin to be the correct approach - if only there was more of it.

My essay doesn't go into your depth regarding the initial step of existing from nothingness, but covers this area also and extends it. I encourage you to read it and perhaps we can email and discuss further.

My thoughts as I read along - can nothingness and consciousness coexist? probably not...but as you say as soon as there is information there is potential for consciousness and existence is a form of information (your Universal Bit).

I tend to think that any form of information that is not constrained by the speed of light, and therefore classical causality, is potentially conscious. Freedom from the constraints of locality means that information can loop backwards in time, or "on the spot", in the present moment. This can generate an ability to think and choose - free will and creativity.

What is the trigger to existence? I am not sure whether it can be argued by choice. Symmetry is another option. In physics, symmetries can be unstable, particularly if they are of a fundamental kind. As you point out, nothingness has a symmetry between existing and not existing. If nothingness remains in a state of nonexistence, then it remains unstable, but if it cascades to existence, it may become more stable. Frank Wilczek has pointed out that nothing is more unstable than nothingness, because nothingness is so symmetrical.

I gave you a high score

Best regards

Gavin

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Author Patrick Tonin replied on Apr. 2, 2017 @ 20:15 GMT
Hi Gavin,

Thank you for reading my essay. I read the abstract of yours and it looks interesting. I am away from home at the moment and I will read and comment on your essay on my return in a day or two.

Cheers,

Patrick




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