Search FQXi


If you are aware of an interesting new academic paper (that has been published in a peer-reviewed journal or has appeared on the arXiv), a conference talk (at an official professional scientific meeting), an external blog post (by a professional scientist) or a news item (in the mainstream news media), which you think might make an interesting topic for an FQXi blog post, then please contact us at forums@fqxi.org with a link to the original source and a sentence about why you think that the work is worthy of discussion. Please note that we receive many such suggestions and while we endeavour to respond to them, we may not be able to reply to all suggestions.

Please also note that we do not accept unsolicited posts and we cannot review, or open new threads for, unsolicited articles or papers. Requests to review or post such materials will not be answered. If you have your own novel physics theory or model, which you would like to post for further discussion among then FQXi community, then please add them directly to the "Alternative Models of Reality" thread, or to the "Alternative Models of Cosmology" thread. Thank you.

Contests Home

Current Essay Contest


Contest Partner: The Peter and Patricia Gruber Fnd.

Previous Contests

Trick or Truth: The Mysterious Connection Between Physics and Mathematics
Contest Partners: Nanotronics Imaging, The Peter and Patricia Gruber Foundation, and The John Templeton Foundation
Media Partner: Scientific American

read/discusswinners

How Should Humanity Steer the Future?
January 9, 2014 - August 31, 2014
Contest Partners: Jaan Tallinn, The Peter and Patricia Gruber Foundation, The John Templeton Foundation, and Scientific American
read/discusswinners

It From Bit or Bit From It
March 25 - June 28, 2013
Contest Partners: The Gruber Foundation, J. Templeton Foundation, and Scientific American
read/discusswinners

Questioning the Foundations
Which of Our Basic Physical Assumptions Are Wrong?
May 24 - August 31, 2012
Contest Partners: The Peter and Patricia Gruber Foundation, SubMeta, and Scientific American
read/discusswinners

Is Reality Digital or Analog?
November 2010 - February 2011
Contest Partners: The Peter and Patricia Gruber Foundation and Scientific American
read/discusswinners

What's Ultimately Possible in Physics?
May - October 2009
Contest Partners: Astrid and Bruce McWilliams
read/discusswinners

The Nature of Time
August - December 2008
read/discusswinners

Forum Home
Introduction
Terms of Use

Order posts by:
 chronological order
 most recent first

Posts by the author are highlighted in orange; posts by FQXi Members are highlighted in blue.

By using the FQXi Forum, you acknowledge reading and agree to abide by the Terms of Use

 RSS feed | RSS help
RECENT POSTS IN THIS TOPIC

Andrew Scott: on 3/20/17 at 23:32pm UTC, wrote Thanks Willy

Willy K: on 3/19/17 at 5:13am UTC, wrote Dear Scott I am in perfect agreement with what you have written in your...

Andrew Scott: on 3/11/17 at 21:38pm UTC, wrote Thanks for the comment Jim. Sounds like you will have an interesting...

Andrew Scott: on 3/11/17 at 21:35pm UTC, wrote Harry, you say "...and can not be answered by science, as it is really a...

Andrew Scott: on 3/11/17 at 21:32pm UTC, wrote Thanks John-Erik

Andrew Scott: on 3/11/17 at 21:30pm UTC, wrote Much further than the ability to "count" units, certainly; but further than...

Andrew Scott: on 3/11/17 at 21:25pm UTC, wrote Thanks Don, I must say I rather enjoyed your little essay (oh... while...

Don Limuti: on 3/11/17 at 3:26am UTC, wrote Andrew, I give high marks to your essay. Clear and easy to...


RECENT FORUM POSTS

Philip Gibbs: "Everybody in the top 50 at least has been repeatedly 1-bombed. It affects..." in FQXi Essay Contest 2016:...

Sagar sai: "Existing without the answers to the difficulties you’ve sorted out..." in Time in Physics & Entropy...

Sagar sai: "Thanks a lot very much for the high quality and results-oriented help. I..." in Time in Physics & Entropy...

leonae gonzales: "This seems to be very interesting site. Professionally i am a writer at the..." in Quantum Replicants:...

James Putnam: "Quoting Gary D. Simpson: "If you disapprove of one-bombing and wish to..." in FQXi Essay Contest 2016:...

Steven Andresen: "It might be that I have come to know where the hidden variable is, to..." in 80 Years of EPR —...

dieu le: "The Creation of Momentum From the gigantic Milky Way Galaxy to the..." in Alternative Models of...

dieu le: "What causes Things Move in Universe? Things move when encountering a..." in Alternative Models of...


RECENT ARTICLES
click titles to read articles

Quantum Replicants: Should future androids dream of quantum sheep?
To build the ultimate artificial mimics of real life systems, we may need to use quantum memory.

Painting a QBist Picture of Reality
A radical interpretation of physics makes quantum theory more personal.

The Spacetime Revolutionary
Carlo Rovelli describes how black holes may transition to "white holes," according to loop quantum gravity, a radical rewrite of fundamental physics.

Riding the Rogue Quantum Waves
Could giant sea swells help explain how the macroscopic world emerges from the quantum microworld? (Image credit: MIT News)

Rescuing Reality
A "retrocausal" rewrite of physics, in which influences from the future can affect the past, could solve some quantum quandaries—saving Einstein's view of reality along the way.


FQXi FORUM
March 23, 2017

CATEGORY: Wandering Towards a Goal Essay Contest (2016-2017) [back]
TOPIC: Mathematically Mysterious by Andrew R. Scott [refresh]
Bookmark and Share
Login or create account to post reply or comment.

This essay's rating: Community = 4.5; Public = 4.5


Author Andrew R. Scott wrote on Feb. 3, 2017 @ 21:12 GMT
Essay Abstract

There are so many unjustified assumptions in the question it is barely worth considering - at least not without first addressing and questioning these assumptions. Honesty and humility in the face of our ultimate ignorance is more appropriate than the common pretence that we may be able to resolve such issues. We do not know what consciousness is, hence we are hardly in a position to consider what aspects of nature, whether mathematical or not, may give rise to it and the aims and intentions it may create. We are lost in a universe that we will never properly understand, and this brief entry makes a probably futile attempt to persuade readers with an inflated view of the power of science of this bleak and ultimate truth.

Author Bio

Andrew R. Scott is a long-established science writer, author of books translated into many languages and a large number of articles published by such outlets as Nature, New Scientist, Chemistry World, several national newspapers and many more. He has a PhD in chemistry from Cambridge University and a BSc in biochemistry from Edinburgh University. He also publishes fiction and memoir as Andrew MacLaren-Scott. Further details and samples of work are available on http://andrewrscott.blogspot.co.uk/ and http://andrewmaclarenscott.blogspot.co.uk/

Download Essay PDF File




Satyavarapu Naga Parameswara Gupta wrote on Feb. 4, 2017 @ 04:42 GMT
Hi, Andrew R. Scott,

Good essay on the basis of the formation of question it self. Though it is not answering the EQXi question.

By the way what is consciousness...

report post as inappropriate

Author Andrew R. Scott replied on Feb. 4, 2017 @ 11:26 GMT
Thanks. I am glad you are enjoyed it. I suggest I am answering the question, for any response to a question is an answer, even if it is "I don't know". I rather suspect that none of the essays here will answer the question in the sense of providing a solution, although I have not read them all yet, so perhaps somewhere I will find one that reveals how mathematical laws give rise to aims and intention, but I doubt it. Andrew




Biswaranjan Dikshit wrote on Feb. 4, 2017 @ 18:45 GMT
Hi, you seem to loose hope that science will ever be successful in understanding life, consciousness, intentions etc. But, science is a quest of truth. If life and consciousness truly exist in nature, why can't we prove it? Of course, we will have to include these subjects in the scope of modern scientific research.

A preliminary step towards a mathematical approach on 'will' or consciousness can be found in my submitted essay titled "Theoretical proof of biased will of nature as the origin of quantum mechanical results".

report post as inappropriate

Author Andrew R. Scott replied on Feb. 4, 2017 @ 19:48 GMT
I agree we should include all these subjects in the scope of scientific research, but we should always be clear about the distinction between descriptions and correlations and ultimate explanations. And we should be open to the possible limitations of what we may be able to discern, rather than expecting that we should necessarily be able to understand everything. If we, as mere parts of the universe, were capable of understanding everything about it, that would be rather remarkable. But of course, we should try to get as far as we can, and we are doing quite well. I will take a look at your essay.



Joe Fisher replied on Feb. 7, 2017 @ 16:51 GMT
Dear Dr. Scott,

Please excuse me for I do not wish to be too critical of your fine essay.

Only nature could produce a reality so simple, a single cell amoeba could deal with it.

One real visible Universe must have only one reality. Simple natural reality has nothing to do with any abstract complex musings about imaginary invisible “inflated view of the power of science of this bleak and ultimate truth.”

The real Universe must consist only of one unified visible infinite physical surface occurring in one infinite dimension, that am always illuminated by infinite non-surface light.

A more detailed explanation of natural reality can be found in my essay, SCORE ONE FOR SIMPLICITY. I do hope that you will read my essay and comment on its merit.

Joe Fisher, Realist

report post as inappropriate


Don C Foster wrote on Feb. 4, 2017 @ 22:38 GMT
Hi there,

You might like Dan Bruiger's essay. I thought he dealt with the ambiguities of the question pretty thoroughly Not exactly well posed.

Regards, Don

report post as inappropriate


George Kirakosyan wrote on Feb. 5, 2017 @ 06:56 GMT
Dear Andrew

I can only applaud your true remarks, as we are obligated do not deceiving ourselves, before teaching something to others!

report post as inappropriate

Author Andrew R. Scott replied on Feb. 5, 2017 @ 10:19 GMT
Thanks George




Lawrence B. Crowell wrote on Feb. 6, 2017 @ 02:14 GMT
While my essay takes a very different approach by making the default assumption of "mindless math = physical principles," yours poses the counter question of what is meant by the relationship of math to the world. We know it works well, but it is mysterious as Wigner pointed out in his "Unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics."

LC

report post as inappropriate


George Kirakosyan wrote on Feb. 6, 2017 @ 10:35 GMT
Dear Gupta! (copy)

Many thanks for your great opinion.

I am just happy to see that we are not alone in our views!

Maybe in any time people will be realized that the way of natural thinking is more preferable in science than any beautiful creativity! Now I am starting to study your work (with pleasure!) I will tell you about it after some time.

I suggest you to read M-r Andrew Scott’s article where I find very costly remarks!

With best wishes!

report post as inappropriate


John-Erik Persson wrote on Feb. 10, 2017 @ 17:54 GMT
Andrew

Thanks for this enjoyable article. I like the fact that you focus on the importance of knowing what we know and not know, and also the distinction between description and explanation.

John-Erik Persson

report post as inappropriate

Author Andrew R. Scott replied on Mar. 11, 2017 @ 21:32 GMT
Thanks John-Erik




Harry Hamlin Ricker III wrote on Feb. 12, 2017 @ 00:01 GMT
Hi Andrew, I was not at all unsure what was meant by the essay topic that was selected. You did a pretty good job of analyzing the issues involved in answering the topic question. I however, am pretty sure that the question was posed within the context of the viewpoint that goes back to the Pythagorean idea that nature is mathematics. That idea has many faults, and I tried to address them from the viewpoint of the so called scientific method. I see you took a different approach. Many of the issues that you raise are complementary to the issues that I addressed. I concluded that the scientific tools, as currently used, are inadequate to address the problem posed. So it is an ill posed problem as it stands. I did try to suggest alternative ways of dealing with the question, which is a fundamental question. I don't think that it really falls into the purview of science, and can not be answered by science, as it is really a question in philosophy.

I suggested that it is a problem that doesn't fit into the box that science tried to fit it into. So we have to find a different approach, since the tools of science are not suited to the solution of the problem that they posed.

report post as inappropriate

Author Andrew R. Scott replied on Mar. 11, 2017 @ 21:35 GMT
Harry, you say "...and can not be answered by science, as it is really a question in philosophy"

In which case I suggest it cannot be answered, for philosophy has never answered any question satisfactorily, just offered speculative commentary and favored opinions (in my humble opinion).




James Lee Hoover wrote on Feb. 13, 2017 @ 02:58 GMT
Andrew,

I can understand the frustration you feel in dealing with the topic and as a non-scientist by training and experience, my concept of mindless was non-scientific. In retirement I'm hooked on science.

However, my comments went like this: Such laws are not mindless as the non-scientific definition of requiring no mental effort, but mindless in the sense of being only a neutral mathematical description of an observed phenomenon. Thus, there is no mindfulness to such laws. They do not dictate an aim but can boost efforts to rationally explain observed phenomenon in the course of humankind’s endeavors.

I went to Aristotle for concept of goals and discovery and the scientific process in methodology for discovery and mindless laws.

Jim Hoover

report post as inappropriate

Author Andrew R. Scott replied on Mar. 11, 2017 @ 21:38 GMT
Thanks for the comment Jim. Sounds like you will have an interesting retirement.




Jose P. Koshy wrote on Feb. 13, 2017 @ 12:22 GMT
Andrew R. Scott,

I read your essay. You have posed a question: What exactly are mathematical laws? In my opinion, the basic law (rule) of mathematics is the law of addition. 1+1 is always equal to 2. The rest of the mathematical laws follow from this. There are no separate mathematical laws for physics. In interactions, bodies have to follow mathematical laws.

I agree with you regarding quanta. Matter is grainy; and so space, time, and everything connected with matter are quantised. I propose that the 'fundamental unit' of matter always remain in 'motion', which is a mathematical relation connecting space and time. Because of motion, matter always remain changing, and the changes follow mathematical laws.

Jose P Koshy

report post as inappropriate


Alexey/Lev Burov wrote on Feb. 28, 2017 @ 01:09 GMT
Dear Andrew,

I very much enjoyed the vividly rebellious spirit of your essay, although I do not fully share your points. In particular, I do not see any reflection on the “unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics” (Wigner), whose ‘unreasonableness’ points to the fact that it goes much farther than ability to count units. What I especially like in your text is your pointing to the mystery as the terminus of all explanations. I am very interested to see your comments to my essay.

Regards, Alexey Burov.

report post as inappropriate

Author Andrew R. Scott replied on Mar. 11, 2017 @ 21:30 GMT
Much further than the ability to "count" units, certainly; but further than the ability to describe the complex interactions among varying numbers of differently interacting units? One is arithmetic, the other mathematics, surely.




Natesh Ganesh wrote on Feb. 28, 2017 @ 22:27 GMT
Andrew,

It was an enjoyable read and I liked the last point on 'mathematics describing and not explaining things'. I might have to ponder upon that. I am of the view that physical law is the only objective reality and math, (most probably) a product of human cognition provides a familiar language to discuss it. I saw in your comments that you don't expect to see an essay with a solution. I will overall disagree with your essay (while still enjoying it) and ask you take a look at my essay 'Intention is Physical' if you have the time. Perhaps you might find the explanation for how goals and intentions arise that you were looking for.

Cheers

Natesh

report post as inappropriate


David C Cosgrove wrote on Mar. 4, 2017 @ 07:55 GMT
Andrew,

You say near the end, “We should enjoy the puzzles and the mysteries…”

So I wonder if you have any particular favourites amongst the physical mysteries that should be the target of investigation or attention (even if very difficult and hard to describe mathematically!)

For me, demonstrating the reality of objective wavefunction collapse is an important next step…

Regards,

David C.

report post as inappropriate


Author Andrew R. Scott wrote on Mar. 4, 2017 @ 11:53 GMT
Dear David C,

The mystery of "wavefunction collapse", if and how it happens, is a wonderful mystery to address and enjoy; and once that we may well be able to learn much more about. Indeed if we really do possess "intention" that may be the place to look for how it works.

Andrew



Author Andrew R. Scott replied on Mar. 4, 2017 @ 11:55 GMT
"one" not "once" - my wavefunctions often collapse to make spelling mistakes, and never ones that I intend.




Graham Walker Cookson wrote on Mar. 4, 2017 @ 14:37 GMT
Hi Andrew,

I enjoyed your contrarian attitude, but you are correct about it not winning any points in this contest. This contest is not about winning prizes. It is about sharing ideas. I liked your ideas…grumpiness has its place. Many essays hide in the ‘trees’ and do not attempt to see the ‘forest’. I think an opportunity to express ideas is too tempting not to ‘shoehorn’ favorite theories into this broad a question. Good luck, Graham Cookson

report post as inappropriate

Anonymous replied on Mar. 5, 2017 @ 22:32 GMT
Thanks, and of course as expected and indeed inevitably, so far as I can see not a single essay has provided any satisfactory answers to the fundamental questions. It is all pretension and hubris, at best, and obvious nonsense at worst (and there is much of the worst).

report post as inappropriate


Don Limuti wrote on Mar. 11, 2017 @ 03:26 GMT
Andrew,

I give high marks to your essay. Clear and easy to understand....and short (BTW... my essay is shorter than yours :))

I liked your comments:

"To proceed or not to proceed? That is the question. Will I decide, or will mathematics, or something else?"

"Repeat, repeat, repeat: Mathematical laws describe, they do not explain, even though their description of interrelationships can seem like explanations at some levels, only to melt away into mere descriptions when we dig deeper."

Thanks for your essay,

Don Limuti

report post as inappropriate

Author Andrew R. Scott replied on Mar. 11, 2017 @ 21:25 GMT
Thanks Don,

I must say I rather enjoyed your little essay (oh... while remaining completely unsure about whether I really mean I "must" or if I had the choice to say so or not to say so).

Andrew




Willy K wrote on Mar. 19, 2017 @ 05:13 GMT
Dear Scott

I am in perfect agreement with what you have written in your essay. Accordingly, I rate your essay highly. It is essentially pointless of us to expect mathematics to show aims and intention, which are after all very human descriptions of a very human experience of the world. In my humble opinion, perhaps the only possible exception to this would be to consider ‘intention’ as the property that gives rise to stability of emergent systems. I think, this is a different understanding of ‘intention’ than the one you critiqued. It simply looks for how stability could arise in emergent systems and calls that as its ‘intention’. Yes, that is anthropomorphizing the situation, but it is perhaps the only way to make sense of the theme. At least my essay takes it in that direction. It argues that intelligent systems can be separated by looking at their ‘nurturing’ capacity, which is basically their ability to give stability to their root element. Hope that makes sense!

Regards, Willy

report post as inappropriate

Author Andrew R. Scott replied on Mar. 20, 2017 @ 23:32 GMT
Thanks Willy




Login or create account to post reply or comment.

Please enter your e-mail address:

And select the letter between 'C' and 'E':


Note: Joining the FQXi mailing list does not give you a login account or constitute membership in the organization.