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**Sergey Fedosin**: *on* 10/5/12 at 12:21pm UTC, wrote Dear Andrey, I rated your essay almost the best score. Sergey Fedosin

**Sergey Fedosin**: *on* 10/4/12 at 5:29am UTC, wrote If you do not understand why your rating dropped down. As I found ratings...

**vlad menbek**: *on* 10/2/12 at 12:46pm UTC, wrote The pulse mechanics Our installed Is a dense point in the Big Universe (B....

**vlad menbek**: *on* 10/2/12 at 12:41pm UTC, wrote A SINGLE UNIVERSE The geometry of the space of our universe the...

**vlad menbek**: *on* 10/2/12 at 12:35pm UTC, wrote ЕДИНАЯ...

**Steve Dufourny Jedi**: *on* 9/25/12 at 19:45pm UTC, wrote Hello Mr.Akhmeteli, I d say incomplete and overcomplete(irrational works...

**Hoang Hai**: *on* 9/19/12 at 15:33pm UTC, wrote Dear Very interesting to see your essay. Perhaps all of us are convinced...

**Anonymous**: *on* 9/15/12 at 19:13pm UTC, wrote Dear Benjamin, Thank you for your interest in my essay. Yes, when I speak...

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A bench-top experiment could test the notion that gravity breaks delicate quantum superpositions.

Accounting for quantum fuzziness could help us measure space and time—and the cosmos—more accurately.

Is there are sweet spot where artificial intelligence systems could have the maximum amount of consciousness while retaining powerful quantum properties?

FQXi FORUM

November 25, 2017

CATEGORY:
Questioning the Foundations Essay Contest (2012)
[back]

TOPIC: Quantum Theory: Complete? Incomplete? Overcomplete? by Andrey Akhmeteli [refresh]

TOPIC: Quantum Theory: Complete? Incomplete? Overcomplete? by Andrey Akhmeteli [refresh]

The measurement problem in quantum mechanics strongly suggests that quantum theory is overcomplete and, strictly speaking, wrong, as it contains mutually contradictory parts - unitary evolution and measurement theory. Modification of the latter enables construction of "no drama" quantum theory - a local realistic theory that has the same unitary evolution as a quantum field theory. The main premises and steps of this construction are as follows. Schr\"{o}dinger noted that the complex charged matter field in the Klein-Gordon equation or in scalar electrodynamics can be made real by a gauge transform, although it is generally believed that complex functions are required to describe charged fields. An extension of these results to the Dirac equation and spinor electrodynamics is proposed here: it is shown that the Dirac equation is generally equivalent to one fourth-order partial differential equation for one complex component, which can also be made real by a gauge transform. As the Dirac equation is one of the most fundamental, these results both belong in textbooks and can be used for development of new efficient methods and algorithms of quantum chemistry. Furthermore, the matter field can be algebraically eliminated both from scalar electrodynamics and from spinor electrodynamics in a certain gauge (for spinor electrodynamics, this is done after introduction of a complex electromagnetic four-potential, which leaves the electromagnetic fields unchanged). The resulting equations describe independent dynamics of the electromagnetic field. It is also shown that for these systems of equations, a generalized Carleman linearization (Carleman embedding) procedure generates systems of linear equations in the Hilbert space, which look like second-quantized theories and are equivalent to the original nonlinear systems on the set of solutions of the latter. Thus, the relevant local realistic models can be embedded into quantum field theories. Possible issues with the Bell theorem are discussed.

Andrey Akhmeteli obtained his PhD in theoretical and mathematical physics from Moscow University and has worked there, in other research and education institutions, and in industry.

Dear Andrey Akhmeteli,

You make so many excellent points it is hard to know where to begin. I agree that 'overcomplete' is very probably a significant problem, and I applaud your work toward a 'no drama' quantum theory.

Lacking a strong opinion on "complex function required to describe charged fields" I would note that I am increasingly drawn toward Hestenes' Geometric Algebra interpretation of sqrt(-1) as a real rotation in space, and in that sense I think it is inherent in quantum theory. And while I do find your electrodynamic-based approach very worth while, I believe that de Broglie was clear that the 'pilot wave' was *not* the electro-magnetic field. Your focus on relativistic field equations is very appropriate, however I hope you will read the non-relativistic treatment in my essay, The Nature of the Wave Function. It is based on de Broglie's idea that the wave function is physically real and addresses both recent experimental support of the idea as well as recent 'no-go' theorems (PBR, and others) that support such reality. It is also compatible with your observation that "no positive experimental evidence exists for physical state-vector collapse."

As for Bell's theorem, I have recently pointed out d'Espagnat's claim that physics is based on realism, deductive reasoning, and locality. Most Bell believers have *chosen* to sacrifice local realism, but, as you point out, if "mutually contradictory assumptions (e.g. unitary evolution and the projection postulate) are required to prove the Bell theorem" then perhaps it is deductive reasoning that is the real problem.

The assumptions underlying "full drama" quantum theory are obviously problematical, and your essay is one of the best approaches to the problem I have seen. Good luck in the essay competition.

Edwin Eugene Klingman

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You make so many excellent points it is hard to know where to begin. I agree that 'overcomplete' is very probably a significant problem, and I applaud your work toward a 'no drama' quantum theory.

Lacking a strong opinion on "complex function required to describe charged fields" I would note that I am increasingly drawn toward Hestenes' Geometric Algebra interpretation of sqrt(-1) as a real rotation in space, and in that sense I think it is inherent in quantum theory. And while I do find your electrodynamic-based approach very worth while, I believe that de Broglie was clear that the 'pilot wave' was *not* the electro-magnetic field. Your focus on relativistic field equations is very appropriate, however I hope you will read the non-relativistic treatment in my essay, The Nature of the Wave Function. It is based on de Broglie's idea that the wave function is physically real and addresses both recent experimental support of the idea as well as recent 'no-go' theorems (PBR, and others) that support such reality. It is also compatible with your observation that "no positive experimental evidence exists for physical state-vector collapse."

As for Bell's theorem, I have recently pointed out d'Espagnat's claim that physics is based on realism, deductive reasoning, and locality. Most Bell believers have *chosen* to sacrifice local realism, but, as you point out, if "mutually contradictory assumptions (e.g. unitary evolution and the projection postulate) are required to prove the Bell theorem" then perhaps it is deductive reasoning that is the real problem.

The assumptions underlying "full drama" quantum theory are obviously problematical, and your essay is one of the best approaches to the problem I have seen. Good luck in the essay competition.

Edwin Eugene Klingman

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Dear Edwin Eugene Klingman,

Thank you very much for your kind words.

I have read your essay, and some of your ideas are close to what I considered some time ago. For example, I was interested in Hestenes' geometric algebra, but I don't feel I have a definite opinion on its advantages/drawbacks. However, I had some problems trying to understand your essay as, regrettably, I don't know much about general relativity.

I'd like to note that the following is a quote from Schlosshauer's article: "no positive experimental evidence exists for physical state-vector collapse."

I wish you every success

Andrey Akhmeteli

Thank you very much for your kind words.

I have read your essay, and some of your ideas are close to what I considered some time ago. For example, I was interested in Hestenes' geometric algebra, but I don't feel I have a definite opinion on its advantages/drawbacks. However, I had some problems trying to understand your essay as, regrettably, I don't know much about general relativity.

I'd like to note that the following is a quote from Schlosshauer's article: "no positive experimental evidence exists for physical state-vector collapse."

I wish you every success

Andrey Akhmeteli

Dear Andrey,

Very interesting essay. One question: when you speak of the theory of measurement in standard quantum theory, are you speaking only of the nonunitary behavior (i.e. "wave-function collapse") of the Copenhagen interpretation? The reason I ask is because "decoherence" has come to be viewed as almost "standard" in recent years, and I am wondering what you think about decoherence. Thanks, and take care,

Ben Dribus

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Very interesting essay. One question: when you speak of the theory of measurement in standard quantum theory, are you speaking only of the nonunitary behavior (i.e. "wave-function collapse") of the Copenhagen interpretation? The reason I ask is because "decoherence" has come to be viewed as almost "standard" in recent years, and I am wondering what you think about decoherence. Thanks, and take care,

Ben Dribus

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Dear Benjamin,

Thank you for your interest in my essay.

Yes, when I speak of the theory of measurement in standard quantum theory, I am speaking only of the nonunitary behavior (i.e. "wave-function collapse") of the Copenhagen interpretation. The reason is that it is collapse (say, in the form of the projection postulate) that is used in a typical proof of the Bell theorem (when they prove that the Bell inequalities can be violated in quantum theory).

I don't think decoherence changes anything (in principle), as far as my work is concerned: it is my understanding that decoherence is used to show how appearance of collapse arises, not collapse itself. Looks like the most decoherence picture can show is that collapse can be a good approximation. As long as collapse is an approximation, not a precise law, it's fine with me:-)

Thank you

Best regards

Andrey Akhmeteli

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Thank you for your interest in my essay.

Yes, when I speak of the theory of measurement in standard quantum theory, I am speaking only of the nonunitary behavior (i.e. "wave-function collapse") of the Copenhagen interpretation. The reason is that it is collapse (say, in the form of the projection postulate) that is used in a typical proof of the Bell theorem (when they prove that the Bell inequalities can be violated in quantum theory).

I don't think decoherence changes anything (in principle), as far as my work is concerned: it is my understanding that decoherence is used to show how appearance of collapse arises, not collapse itself. Looks like the most decoherence picture can show is that collapse can be a good approximation. As long as collapse is an approximation, not a precise law, it's fine with me:-)

Thank you

Best regards

Andrey Akhmeteli

report post as inappropriate

Dear

Very interesting to see your essay.

Perhaps all of us are convinced that: the choice of yourself is right!That of course is reasonable.

So may be we should work together to let's the consider clearly defined for the basis foundations theoretical as the most challenging with intellectual of all of us.

Why we do not try to start with a real challenge is very close and are the focus of interest of the human science: it is a matter of mass and grain Higg boson of the standard model.

Knowledge and belief reasoning of you will to express an opinion on this matter:

You have think that: the Mass is the expression of the impact force to material - so no impact force, we do not feel the Higg boson - similar to the case of no weight outside the Earth's atmosphere.

Does there need to be a particle with mass for everything have volume? If so, then why the mass of everything change when moving from the Earth to the Moon? Higg boson is lighter by the Moon's gravity is weaker than of Earth?

The LHC particle accelerator used to "Smashed" until "Ejected" Higg boson, but why only when the "Smashed" can see it,and when off then not see it ?

Can be "locked" Higg particles? so when "released" if we do not force to it by any the Force, how to know that it is "out" or not?

You are should be boldly to give a definition of weight that you think is right for us to enjoy, or oppose my opinion.

Because in the process of research, the value of "failure" or "success" is the similar with science. The purpose of a correct theory be must is without any a wrong point ?

Glad to see from you comments soon,because still have too many of the same problems.

Regards !

Hải.Caohoàng of THE INCORRECT ASSUMPTIONS AND A CORRECT THEORY

August 23, 2012 - 11:51 GMT on this essay contest.

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Very interesting to see your essay.

Perhaps all of us are convinced that: the choice of yourself is right!That of course is reasonable.

So may be we should work together to let's the consider clearly defined for the basis foundations theoretical as the most challenging with intellectual of all of us.

Why we do not try to start with a real challenge is very close and are the focus of interest of the human science: it is a matter of mass and grain Higg boson of the standard model.

Knowledge and belief reasoning of you will to express an opinion on this matter:

You have think that: the Mass is the expression of the impact force to material - so no impact force, we do not feel the Higg boson - similar to the case of no weight outside the Earth's atmosphere.

Does there need to be a particle with mass for everything have volume? If so, then why the mass of everything change when moving from the Earth to the Moon? Higg boson is lighter by the Moon's gravity is weaker than of Earth?

The LHC particle accelerator used to "Smashed" until "Ejected" Higg boson, but why only when the "Smashed" can see it,and when off then not see it ?

Can be "locked" Higg particles? so when "released" if we do not force to it by any the Force, how to know that it is "out" or not?

You are should be boldly to give a definition of weight that you think is right for us to enjoy, or oppose my opinion.

Because in the process of research, the value of "failure" or "success" is the similar with science. The purpose of a correct theory be must is without any a wrong point ?

Glad to see from you comments soon,because still have too many of the same problems.

Regards !

Hải.Caohoàng of THE INCORRECT ASSUMPTIONS AND A CORRECT THEORY

August 23, 2012 - 11:51 GMT on this essay contest.

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Hello Mr.Akhmeteli,

I d say incomplete and overcomplete(irrational works and extrapolations).

I beleive that the main probelm is the lack of domains in the general analyzes. I d say also that the competition sometimes imply an ocean of pseudo irrational works and models. It is not a probelm this competition, it catalyzes. The probelm is when these irrational works govern the institute. It is not rational all that. Our knowledges are of course incomplete, the uncompleteness implies that we are simply far of our walls. The hidden variables are in fact in the same universal dynamic.

The Bell theorem, aahhhh this Bell theorem. I don't see the necessity to imply irrational hidden variables. The fact that our measurements are hidden does not mean that these variables are irrational. In fact our uncompleteness means that we are far of our walls. The violations of Bell inequalities does not mean that we loose our determinism. The pilot waves of De Broglie seems rational and deterministic. I don't see a necessity to imply multiverses with bizare things.

Uncompleteness does not mean bizare variables. Theys are simply far of us. We can compare the quantum road with the cosmological road, we have already difficulties to go at Mars , so you imagine the immensity of our Universal sphere. It is logic that we have a lot of unknowns. It is simply our young age at the universal scale.

and don't say me that alice and Bob are in the extradimensions of parallel universes please.Let's be rational.

Regards

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I d say incomplete and overcomplete(irrational works and extrapolations).

I beleive that the main probelm is the lack of domains in the general analyzes. I d say also that the competition sometimes imply an ocean of pseudo irrational works and models. It is not a probelm this competition, it catalyzes. The probelm is when these irrational works govern the institute. It is not rational all that. Our knowledges are of course incomplete, the uncompleteness implies that we are simply far of our walls. The hidden variables are in fact in the same universal dynamic.

The Bell theorem, aahhhh this Bell theorem. I don't see the necessity to imply irrational hidden variables. The fact that our measurements are hidden does not mean that these variables are irrational. In fact our uncompleteness means that we are far of our walls. The violations of Bell inequalities does not mean that we loose our determinism. The pilot waves of De Broglie seems rational and deterministic. I don't see a necessity to imply multiverses with bizare things.

Uncompleteness does not mean bizare variables. Theys are simply far of us. We can compare the quantum road with the cosmological road, we have already difficulties to go at Mars , so you imagine the immensity of our Universal sphere. It is logic that we have a lot of unknowns. It is simply our young age at the universal scale.

and don't say me that alice and Bob are in the extradimensions of parallel universes please.Let's be rational.

Regards

report post as inappropriate

A SINGLE UNIVERSE

The geometry of the space of our universe the two-dimensional. This plane created polarized continuous vacuum. Continuous vacuum is not a monolithic, digital, quantum. Continuous vacuum consists of the quantum vacuum, which defined the M.PLANK Their radius of 10 in -33 degrees centimeters, weight of 10 to -5 degrees grams. The quanta of the continuous vacuum pulse. The...

view entire post

The geometry of the space of our universe the two-dimensional. This plane created polarized continuous vacuum. Continuous vacuum is not a monolithic, digital, quantum. Continuous vacuum consists of the quantum vacuum, which defined the M.PLANK Their radius of 10 in -33 degrees centimeters, weight of 10 to -5 degrees grams. The quanta of the continuous vacuum pulse. The...

view entire post

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The pulse mechanics

Our installed Is a dense point in the Big Universe (B. В), formed from counter sound (shock) waves in chaotic "matter". In our Universe for accident there is no place, in our Universe for accident there is no time. Only in B. В, in infinity and eternity, there can be such accident, that is, the ordered structure can casually be formed of CHAOS. Our Universe...

view entire post

Our installed Is a dense point in the Big Universe (B. В), formed from counter sound (shock) waves in chaotic "matter". In our Universe for accident there is no place, in our Universe for accident there is no time. Only in B. В, in infinity and eternity, there can be such accident, that is, the ordered structure can casually be formed of CHAOS. Our Universe...

view entire post

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If you do not understand why your rating dropped down. As I found ratings in the contest are calculated in the next way. Suppose your rating is and was the quantity of people which gave you ratings. Then you have of points. After it anyone give you of points so you have of points and is the common quantity of the people which gave you ratings. At the same time you will have of points. From here, if you want to be R2 > R1 there must be: or or In other words if you want to increase rating of anyone you must give him more points then the participant`s rating was at the moment you rated him. From here it is seen that in the contest are special rules for ratings. And from here there are misunderstanding of some participants what is happened with their ratings. Moreover since community ratings are hided some participants do not sure how increase ratings of others and gives them maximum 10 points. But in the case the scale from 1 to 10 of points do not work, and some essays are overestimated and some essays are drop down. In my opinion it is a bad problem with this Contest rating process. I hope the FQXI community will change the rating process.

Sergey Fedosin

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Sergey Fedosin

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